Creating Synergy Podcast
Creating Synergy brings you engaging conversations and ideas to explore from experts who help businesses adopt new ways of working. Discover innovative approaches and initiatives, new ideas and the latest research in culture, leadership and transformation.
November 30, 2022
#91 - Grant Stevens, Commissioner of the South Australian Police on leading SA through a once-in-a-century pandemic
Transcript
00:00:00:05 - 00:00:22:00
Daniel Franco
My name is Daniel Franco and this is the Creating Synergy podcast, your Business and Leadership Podcast, where we speak to high profile leaders and thinkers about their careers and dig deep by asking the questions we all want the answers to and uncovering their stories, strategies, leadership lessons, and their secrets to success. Welcome back to the Creating Synergy podcast.
00:00:22:01 - 00:00:36:14
Daniel Franco
My name is Daniel Franco, Managing Director of Synergy IQ and host of Creating Synergy. Today we've got a very, very well known man in the South Australian circles, in Australian circles, Commissioner of Police Grant Stephens, thank you for joining us.
00:00:36:18 - 00:00:37:20
Grant Stevens
Well, thanks for the invitation.
00:00:38:04 - 00:00:58:21
Daniel Franco
Very, very excited to have you here. It's been on the cards for a while now and finally got you in the room. So very happy to start off and to understand you and understand the trajectory of your life and how you've ended up being the commissioner of Police. What do we need to understand about your earliest context?
00:00:59:10 - 00:01:13:24
Grant Stevens
Well, I suppose to start off, how I became the commissioner of police is a question I ask myself a lot, but from a from an early days sort of context, I had what you describe as a pretty normal childhood.
00:01:16:10 - 00:01:37:02
Grant Stevens
I would say I was a at best an average student through my schooling career. And I put that down to having no sense of direction. So I didn't see any real need or sort of imperative to apply myself in school. And I think every report that I had through my high school days made a reference to having could have, could be doing better.
00:01:38:05 - 00:01:40:07
To social to me if.
00:01:40:12 - 00:02:04:08
Grant Stevens
I should sit closer to the front. Yes. Needs to engage more. I wasn't a terrible student, but I just. Yeah, I don't think I took advantage of the opportunity to the extent that I could. And on finishing school, I started work almost immediately. I had an after hours after school hours job at a target at Tea Tree Plaza, and they offered me employment virtually straight away when I finished school.
00:02:04:08 - 00:02:14:22
Grant Stevens
So I went from school straight into work and it was probably an early call on my part, but I didn't think retail was a career path I was interested in. After about six months of work.
00:02:15:03 - 00:02:16:05
Daniel Franco
I did high school for.
00:02:16:05 - 00:02:16:20
The I think.
00:02:16:20 - 00:02:19:16
Daniel Franco
In the same sort of area that you worked in, which was like men's.
00:02:19:24 - 00:02:20:07
Well, I.
00:02:20:07 - 00:02:22:04
Grant Stevens
Started off in China on glass, but.
00:02:22:06 - 00:02:23:10
I did interestingly.
00:02:23:10 - 00:02:26:04
Grant Stevens
I was moved very quickly from Toronto Glass into men's menswear.
00:02:26:04 - 00:02:27:06
So less damage.
00:02:27:06 - 00:02:29:18
Daniel Franco
Yeah, I think I lasted a week. Yeah. Yeah.
00:02:30:03 - 00:02:31:07
So I took a.
00:02:31:07 - 00:02:58:01
Grant Stevens
I took a half day off very close to the end of the year in 1981. And I was just coming in to see what was available. I was going to visit the police, maybe the army, the fire brigade, and just to see what they were offering. And I happened to go to the police headquarters first, and I walked into the recruiting station just as I were trying to find a few more people to complete a cadet course starting in January 1982.
00:02:58:20 - 00:03:09:00
Grant Stevens
Um, and they turned me around very quickly through the recruiting process, and I found myself standing on the steps of police headquarters, having accepted a position on the cadet course, wondering what the hell I'd done.
00:03:09:04 - 00:03:16:02
So that escalated. Yeah, it did. Yeah. Yeah. Ron Burgundy. Yeah, absolutely.
00:03:17:01 - 00:03:42:04
Grant Stevens
So I went home and told my parents. My mum was horrified and she was very worried about policing as a career and the people, the risks that people attribute to policing. And I started down at the Academy in January 1992 and very quickly, um, found that there's a really strong connection with that vocation. And that connection created the imperative that I lacked in school.
00:03:42:04 - 00:04:06:09
Grant Stevens
And, you know, the study, the drive, the motivation just came really naturally. So I did quite well through the cadet course and graduated like everyone does at that time. It was a two year course. I graduated and went onto patrols and that's where it all started. So I found myself in policing virtually by accident. There was no long, long term ambition to join the police, no family connection to policing.
00:04:07:01 - 00:04:09:21
Grant Stevens
And that was the start of my career in South Australia.
00:04:09:21 - 00:04:36:06
Daniel Franco
Police really, and I was sitting at my table last night having dinner with my family and as I asked my children I said, you know, Grant Stevens, the commissioner of police, that you've seen him on the TV. And I went, Yeah. So what's one question that you have that you would like to ask Grant? And I feel like it fits in so tightly with what we've just been talking about.
00:04:36:20 - 00:04:43:07
Daniel Franco
And my daughter asked me and my daughter Alice, she said, Ask him what's one childhood memory that he looks back on and smiles.
00:04:44:19 - 00:05:09:17
Grant Stevens
One childhood memory. We at my parents property had a quite a bit of land attached to it and there was a creek running through it and we had this massive tree that me and a few friends taught a rope swinging and we had a steel bar as the handle. And this, this swing became more and more aggressive or dangerous.
00:05:09:17 - 00:05:26:10
Grant Stevens
And one of one of my mates was a bit short and the rest of us adjusted the knot on the swing, and he got up into the tree and he jumped out and his hands slipped the the, the basket. And he just went face first into the creek bed, fell out. And I still after that when I think about it so.
00:05:26:16 - 00:05:27:15
Yeah, that's that's something.
00:05:27:15 - 00:05:28:05
Grant Stevens
That's a childhood.
00:05:28:05 - 00:05:30:21
Daniel Franco
Memory. There's something about people falling over and hurting themselves.
00:05:30:24 - 00:05:31:19
Yeah, yeah.
00:05:31:19 - 00:05:33:06
Grant Stevens
As long as it's not you. It's funny.
00:05:34:05 - 00:05:48:15
Daniel Franco
I have a similar one where we were, I think it was one one New Year's evening. And one of my very good friends, you were an 18 year old. I think we were 19 at the time. And as you do, you get into a bit mischief and you knock on doors and do the knock and run sort of thing.
00:05:48:15 - 00:05:50:00
And and.
00:05:50:03 - 00:05:53:10
Daniel Franco
My mate knocked on the door and he tripped over the porch step, laid.
00:05:53:10 - 00:05:54:04
Flat on.
00:05:54:17 - 00:06:12:02
Daniel Franco
The ground and the person came in and see this guy just lying on the ground. So it was a very, very funny time. I want to ask one question. He talked about Target and working in the retail section. I want to ask about counting socks and what what that had what impact. Yeah, well.
00:06:12:07 - 00:06:12:16
That was.
00:06:12:16 - 00:06:31:09
Grant Stevens
That was probably the catalyst for taking a half a day off to find out what my options were. It was a stocktake on a Saturday afternoon. This is back when retail stores closed at midday on Saturdays and we had to do a stocktake in the afternoon. And I was given the job of counting the socks and there was racks.
00:06:31:09 - 00:06:31:21
Of socks.
00:06:32:13 - 00:06:33:02
Grant Stevens
And I can't.
00:06:33:02 - 00:06:35:22
Daniel Franco
Remember if it was a socks or you had to sort them into.
00:06:36:21 - 00:06:37:20
No doubt they were all.
00:06:37:20 - 00:06:48:09
Grant Stevens
On display. But for stocktaking purposes we needed to know how many were there. Yeah. So my job was to count them and I can't remember the exact numbers somewhere like, you know, 1300 pairs of socks.
00:06:48:09 - 00:06:49:05
Yeah. Well, and.
00:06:49:05 - 00:07:01:08
Grant Stevens
My manager when I went to her with the number of socks said, no, that can't be right, do it again. And I think that was a pivot point for me in terms of Grant Stevens in retail not being a good fit. Not it was a premature call on my part that.
00:07:01:24 - 00:07:02:07
You know.
00:07:02:15 - 00:07:05:16
Grant Stevens
If you look back, I suppose it was a pretty good call in hindsight.
00:07:05:16 - 00:07:18:09
Daniel Franco
Intersection in your life. You are you are a family focused man. You say you you have a pretty normal upbringing. You've moved into a world now where you have five children.
00:07:18:09 - 00:07:20:17
Yep. The other.
00:07:20:22 - 00:07:27:02
Daniel Franco
Other week I was in your office and we were discussing the podcast and I saw a picture of Bart Simpson on the.
00:07:27:02 - 00:07:27:23
In the wall.
00:07:28:14 - 00:07:30:16
Daniel Franco
Can you explain what that represents in your.
00:07:30:22 - 00:07:40:05
Grant Stevens
That was drawn by my youngest son. Now that must have been he's 17 now, so it must have been at least eight or ten years ago.
00:07:40:05 - 00:07:43:08
Yeah, it's quite a good drawing for it. He was very proud of it and.
00:07:43:19 - 00:08:00:22
Grant Stevens
So was I. And I had the option of using the picture of Bart Simpson that he drew or when he was in, um, about the same time in primary school, they had a Father's Day thing where they had to draw pictures of their dads. And I went along, as we all did, and looking for the picture of.
00:08:01:17 - 00:08:03:02
Me drawn by a.
00:08:03:02 - 00:08:04:08
Daniel Franco
Strapping man drawn.
00:08:04:08 - 00:08:09:24
Grant Stevens
By my youngest son. And my son was the only one who had to use the gray crayon for the dad's hair.
00:08:09:24 - 00:08:11:22
So yeah.
00:08:11:22 - 00:08:12:18
Grant Stevens
I'm still here, but.
00:08:12:19 - 00:08:12:21
It.
00:08:14:02 - 00:08:15:15
Daniel Franco
Still wouldn't be like mine would be no hair.
00:08:15:15 - 00:08:19:04
At all. Well, that's the lesser of two evils.
00:08:19:06 - 00:08:41:16
Daniel Franco
Yeah, that's right. That's brilliant. So as a as a father obviously that I think what that pointed out to me was you clearly, if like a family man and a proud father at that as well, and you hear that a lot through your media and your talk and often refer to to the family and and all the interviews you have done.
00:08:41:16 - 00:08:48:07
Daniel Franco
If you as a father and as a husband, how would you like your family to think of you?
00:08:49:18 - 00:08:50:18
Well, I suppose.
00:08:52:06 - 00:09:02:01
Grant Stevens
I'd like them to be proud of what I do. And I think my family are. Um, and I'm sure it must be challenging for me to my kids as they've gone through.
00:09:02:01 - 00:09:02:16
School.
00:09:03:03 - 00:09:29:02
Grant Stevens
With the, the job and particularly my younger children when I've had a, a larger profile in South Australia, that that wouldn't have been easy all the time. But my kids are pretty balanced as well, so I think they've been able to take that in their stride. But I'd hope that they're proud of me for what I've achieved through work, but more importantly, that they think I'm a good dad, that they that feel like I've been there for them.
00:09:29:15 - 00:09:55:23
Grant Stevens
I've it's not always the case that you can be there for every single thing, but it's always been a sort of a central focus for me is to make sure I'm there for all the important stuff. And, you know, even in my earlier days as an executive, I'd make sure I was home for dinner. And, you know, drop the kids off to school whenever I could get to those, you know, horrible Christmas shows that the kids do all of those things.
00:09:56:08 - 00:09:56:22
Daniel Franco
It's easy.
00:09:57:03 - 00:10:16:09
Grant Stevens
Yeah, yeah. It's that that's that is genuinely great sacrifice sitting through those things. But as a parent, it's really important that you're there. You know, you watch your kid on stage for two and a half minutes and then you sit there for another 2 hours watching everyone else's kids. But that's I'd hope that I think I've been a good dad to.
00:10:17:09 - 00:10:26:03
Daniel Franco
How do you realize your visions in life and in your career and manage the time with your family? And how does it intertwine for you?
00:10:27:23 - 00:11:07:02
Grant Stevens
I'm not sure if it's a deliberate thing. I think it's either who you are. Um, there have been times in my, in my professional life where the work obligations have had to take priority. And it's about knowing that that's, that's not the, the status quo. That's not the norm. And switching switching back to what is important, and that is family being there for all of those important things and being engaged, being being present and not letting that work demand override your obligations to your family.
00:11:07:02 - 00:11:28:08
Grant Stevens
Because, you know, there's the old saying, no one, no one lives on their deathbed wishing that. Spent more time at work. So, There's a lot of there's a lot of sense in that. So just I think a lot of people do it naturally. Some professional responsibilities have the potential to drag you away. It's about knowing when it's necessary and when it's not.
00:11:28:08 - 00:11:55:02
Daniel Franco
Yeah, I guess that question comes from, I run a business synergy IQ is the business that owns creating synergy and I can get caught up in the moment of work and I can get caught up in the I need to do this, therefore naturally the families love is unconditional. That's the part that will sacrifice the most. And that's a choice.
00:11:55:20 - 00:12:19:10
Daniel Franco
I am and have been working really hard on making sure I've never missed a basketball games. I do. I'm really proud of this sort of stuff when it comes to the sporting and anything that I do outside of school, I'm always there. But I guess with your situation, the choice isn't always there, right? Yeah, it is. I have to do this as part of my role.
00:12:19:21 - 00:12:22:05
Daniel Franco
How do you manage that and how does your family.
00:12:22:11 - 00:12:23:14
Well, I understand.
00:12:23:15 - 00:12:38:16
Grant Stevens
I'm probably not unique. There's a lot of people who work, shift work and that shift work obligation takes you away from your family during the times when other parents and you know, the 9 to 5.
00:12:38:16 - 00:12:38:22
Yeah.
00:12:39:06 - 00:13:12:11
Grant Stevens
Arrangement permits you to be there for every weekend activity or every evening activity. That's, that's a, that's a consequence of being involved in an industry that requires a 24/7 response. But the obligations of the senior leadership roles, they are more insidious in the way that they encroach. Because you take work home with you or you spend more time at the office to get things done, or you and in this particular role, there's a lot of engagements that occur after hours that you have to participate in.
00:13:12:24 - 00:13:38:01
Grant Stevens
So it's about keeping keeping it in the forefront of your mind that there's got to be a separation between work and family. And also acknowledging that, as I said, there are times when you need to make that commitment to work. If you're if you're establishing a new business, then you are going to have to invest more in in that in it at that time than you will in into the future.
00:13:38:01 - 00:13:41:03
Grant Stevens
So yeah, it's almost like you're borrowing from that point.
00:13:41:06 - 00:13:41:22
Daniel Franco
TIME Yeah.
00:13:41:22 - 00:13:54:04
Grant Stevens
You're borrowing that credit from the, that you have with your family because of the previous investment that you'll be paying it back and you should be paying it back. And you know, it's about recognizing that a lot of people talk about work life balance.
00:13:54:04 - 00:13:54:11
Yeah.
00:13:54:21 - 00:14:27:18
Grant Stevens
And I don't prescribe to that concept because for me it suggests work is something separate to life. It's about balance generally, and it's never going to be 50/50. It should always be that the family gets more of your time than work does. You know that there will be times during your career that you have to invest more in work, whether it's to study for a particular promotional opportunity or, you know, in an emergency management sense when you're going to be working 15 hours a day because of a, you know, a bushfire threat or something, you know, that's that's the balance.
00:14:27:22 - 00:14:33:03
Grant Stevens
Right. And making sure you maintain a perspective on where your time is best spent.
00:14:33:03 - 00:14:35:24
Yeah, it's a bit like a.
00:14:36:00 - 00:14:42:12
Daniel Franco
Fluid right be fluid with your time and but you just want to make sure that that glass is not tilted too much to one side. Yeah.
00:14:42:24 - 00:15:02:03
Grant Stevens
And I'm, you know, I firmly believe in that approach, but, you know, I'm as guilty as anyone as to having let it slip. And it's not so much in the time in my time as a manager, I think I've maintained a pretty good perspective there. But it was when I was in the the drug squad, you know, that the work was dynamic.
00:15:02:03 - 00:15:18:14
Grant Stevens
It was really interesting. We were working with a really good group of people who were just as committed to the job as I was. And, you know, there was a real tendency to hang around a work a lot more, get involved in jobs and not not pull stunts when you're you probably should.
00:15:18:14 - 00:15:18:24
Yeah.
00:15:19:07 - 00:15:25:16
Grant Stevens
Um, so, you know, I reflect on that time and thinking I probably lost a little bit of balance there.
00:15:25:17 - 00:15:26:01
Yeah.
00:15:26:10 - 00:15:45:03
Daniel Franco
I think that goes with any I mean it goes to the point of you said before, which is starting the new business and you're invested into it, there's this element of love when you start your own business, you love what you do, you're enjoying it. And not everyone has the luxury of loving what they do. But you obviously really enjoyed your role.
00:15:45:03 - 00:16:00:20
Daniel Franco
I think that's probably where the because you hear, you know, Steve Jobs and all of these people, they all come out and they say, you love what you do. love what you do. And yes, absolutely. But loving what you do can also mean that this part of your life is going to be sacrificed, such as family, doesn't it?
00:16:00:20 - 00:16:06:16
Daniel Franco
Because it's like, I actually love what I'm doing. This is my hobby as well as my job. Yeah, I want to spend more time here.
00:16:06:22 - 00:16:09:00
Grant Stevens
It's just reminding us of what's important.
00:16:09:00 - 00:16:09:14
Correct.
00:16:10:01 - 00:16:13:07
Grant Stevens
And knowing when to invest in different parts of your life.
00:16:13:14 - 00:16:40:19
Daniel Franco
We talk about work life balance and you know, I know you don't prescribe much of the same. It all just blends into one beautiful ecosystem. I do want to ask you about what people's viewpoint are in your life, in your outside of work life, personal life, and the role that nepotism might come into where, you know, people are asking you for favors, as, you know, commissioner of Police.
00:16:40:19 - 00:16:50:07
Daniel Franco
And I know, you know, integrity's going to be high. And your value said, is it something that you have experienced where people have said, Oh, I got a speeding fine, can you get me off? Or like is.
00:16:50:07 - 00:16:51:04
There that.
00:16:51:05 - 00:16:53:08
Grant Stevens
That those sorts of things are pretty easy to dismiss.
00:16:53:12 - 00:16:53:17
Yeah.
00:16:53:18 - 00:16:55:08
Grant Stevens
Your true friends don't ask you that.
00:16:55:08 - 00:16:55:20
Exactly.
00:16:55:20 - 00:17:09:19
Grant Stevens
It's people who, for some reason have your phone number in their contacts list that you never hear from. Yeah, they're the ones that, you know, you'll get that out of the blue phone call from an acquaintance. Yeah. Yeah. Good, I. How are you going. And how's.
00:17:09:19 - 00:17:13:17
Things? Has a family. Oh, by the way. Yeah, that's it. No. Sorry. Can’t do that.
00:17:13:22 - 00:17:14:17
Daniel Franco
Old schoolmates.
00:17:15:12 - 00:17:16:17
Yeah. So that.
00:17:16:17 - 00:17:19:00
Grant Stevens
That does happen but it's pretty easily.
00:17:19:01 - 00:17:21:12
Yeah it would be. And seriously.
00:17:21:12 - 00:17:30:22
Grant Stevens
True friends. Yeah. So they ask for advice which is what friends are there for. But yeah. They've never been called and never there's never been a true friend that tried to compromise. Yeah.
00:17:31:01 - 00:17:55:06
Daniel Franco
And 100%. And I think that's the same is true for business owners who are starting in that world. I mean, the best way to support anyone who like you, who you know, is starting their own business is actually to buy their product and bought at full price. Yeah. You know, they don’t ask for discount, do like it's about supporting them in their role and helping them promote and do all the above is a bit of talk poppy syndrome here in South Australia where that doesn't happen as much as we would like.
00:17:55:06 - 00:18:00:00
Grant Stevens
Yeah, true. I think that's a that's probably an Australian phenomenon rather than just South Australia.
00:18:00:00 - 00:18:26:06
Daniel Franco
That's true. So what was it like through the early years of being a police officer and and you know, the decisions that you've made along the way obviously into the trajectory of becoming police commissioner, were they thoughtful were they with the intent of or consciously with the intent of becoming the top dog one day? Or was it the just pot luck that you ended up where you are.
00:18:27:05 - 00:18:49:18
Grant Stevens
I'd like to think more than pot luck, but it was it was never like a career plan to be the commissioner of police. Why not? When I graduated from the Academy in December 1983, my. I'd achieved my goal of becoming a police officer. Yeah. And, you know, there's such a diversity of roles that you can undertake that I just.
00:18:49:24 - 00:19:17:20
Grant Stevens
I was just having a ball coming to work. It was great fun. Yeah, it's interesting work. Good people, a really solid team, you know, doing foot patrols in the city. Yeah, car patrols, then moving out to the northern suburbs. It was a completely different style of work out there, different people. So I just it was almost day by day turning up to work, having, having a good time and really enjoying the work we were doing.
00:19:17:23 - 00:19:38:22
Grant Stevens
And it was after a couple of years, I, I started to think about what's after patrols. Yeah, I didn't have a plan when I started as a police officer of what would come after those first couple of years. And I decided to pursue a career in the CLP as a detective, so I took that step. Um, I thoroughly enjoyed that.
00:19:38:22 - 00:20:04:02
Grant Stevens
It was just an evolution of my policing career. I suppose there was no deliberate pathway that I was I'd set out. So after having been a detective in, in regional metropolitan crb’s, I then moved into the specialist squads, did a little bit of time in the major crime investigation area, investigating homicides and then into the the drug investigations, which was just excellent.
00:20:04:02 - 00:20:30:01
Grant Stevens
I really enjoyed that. And then this opportunity came out, not one that I'd planned for or envisaged, but I had a chance to become involved in training other police officers in relation to drug investigations. So I took that step and that led to more exposure with senior managers and that resulted in a promotion into the intelligence arena, an unplanned step in an opportunity presented.
00:20:30:01 - 00:20:30:12
Grant Stevens
And I took the.
00:20:30:12 - 00:20:30:19
Step.
00:20:31:14 - 00:20:52:15
Grant Stevens
That led to me being able to apply for and get onto the inspectors course, which was the course that develops you to become a commissioned officer, one of the senior managers. Um, if I'm honest, um, I don't think I really thought about being the commissioner until I was appointed the deputy Commissioner.
00:20:52:16 - 00:20:53:07
Okay. Well.
00:20:53:19 - 00:21:14:08
Grant Stevens
So that was in 2012. And it's, it's I knew then that the Commissioner of the day was only going to be the commissioner for three years. He'd made that quite clear. And I was his deputy. Um, and that was the realization that there's a real possibility here that I might end up as the Commissioner if the cards fall the right way.
00:21:14:10 - 00:21:14:18
Yeah.
00:21:15:14 - 00:21:25:00
Grant Stevens
And Gary Byrnes, who was the commissioner, essentially provided me a three year opportunity to develop and prepare for that opportunity.
00:21:25:23 - 00:21:51:15
Daniel Franco
You're amazing. I want to I want to jump back to patrols. And I think I heard an interview with you might have been with Hornsby or one of the interviews, many that you've done. And you said that in your first time as a patrol officer, you experienced a sense of overwhelm. And in going out onto site or wherever it may have been.
00:21:51:15 - 00:22:17:24
Daniel Franco
And then as I'm listening to you sort of as you sort of rising among the ranks, is this initial sense of overwhelm when you're on site and all of a sudden, you know, you're in potential conflicts, conflicting situations that aren't so comfortable. And as you rise up those ranks, the sense of overwhelm will only become more and more and more just with the more knowledge that, you know, you know, the old saying, the more you know, the more you realize it, the less you know.
00:22:18:00 - 00:22:35:10
Daniel Franco
So as you go up, those, right. What I'm really interested in is, is that something that has naturally come to you and through experience dealing with the sense of overwhelm or is it is it something that the police do really well in training their staff on on managing that?
00:22:36:00 - 00:22:57:19
Grant Stevens
I think it's a more of a personal approach. Um, you know, we all step out of the academy at this, you know, with the same training, the same skills, the same qualification, and people react differently to the situation. And I still remember that first day. Yeah, the first day out of the academy as a probationary constable. It's a totally foreign environment.
00:22:57:19 - 00:23:12:20
Grant Stevens
You're working with a completely different group of people. And this this is where it gets real. You know, you now you're now there to do the job is not training. There's no safety net. There's no just a, you know, reset the the assessment you're doing it and.
00:23:13:00 - 00:23:14:06
It does.
00:23:14:21 - 00:23:34:14
Grant Stevens
I'd challenge anyone to say they wouldn't be confronted by that scenario where, you know, it's time to step up. And it doesn't take long for that to dissipate either. You know, once you, you know, you're involved in those operational activities and you think, well, the training has prepared me for this and the people I'm working with are there to support me.
00:23:35:07 - 00:23:47:13
Grant Stevens
Then you become more confident, and you start to take those steps. So as you move through that sense of trepidation or imposter syndrome.
00:23:47:13 - 00:23:49:03
Yeah, yeah. That's that's that's.
00:23:49:03 - 00:24:17:21
Grant Stevens
A real thing. I'll remember. And my first appointment as an assistant commissioner. So first occasion that I've been appointed into the executive, you know, I've always probably sitting there thinking, why me? what have I had to do this job? But you've got it sort of in some respects, you've got to jump in, you know, back yourself and take those first steps, know you're going to make mistakes, but be prepared to learn from them.
00:24:18:19 - 00:24:41:07
Daniel Franco
Imposter syndrome is something that is very prevalent in the world. And this is a business podcast, especially in business, and I suffer from it on a daily basis. I got asked to speak in hosted events and whatnot, and every single time, like out of everyone in the world, you've chosen me. It doesn't make sense. Um.
00:24:42:03 - 00:24:43:13
I've lived that experience. Yeah.
00:24:43:21 - 00:24:49:23
Grant Stevens
And probably never more so than as the commissioner of police life.
00:24:50:13 - 00:24:50:21
I'm.
00:24:51:03 - 00:25:05:18
Grant Stevens
I'm just Grant Stevens. Yeah, I'm obviously I do okay in the policing context, but I still have to, you know, I challenge the decision making that saw someone appoint me as the commissioner of police.
00:25:05:23 - 00:25:06:12
It's like.
00:25:07:04 - 00:25:42:24
Grant Stevens
I love my job and I think I'm doing okay, but imposter syndrome is a real thing and you got to move past that, you know, and it, you do have to back yourself. Um, and that, that takes a bit of courage sometimes. But yeah, and I do remember as the Deputy Commissioner, I spent a lot of time talking to the commissioner, Gary Burns, about some of the strategic challenges we had, some of the operational issues, some of the difficulties that we as an organization were dealing with, some of the, you know, government decisions, policy things that we had to implement.
00:25:43:17 - 00:26:08:22
Grant Stevens
And I'd give my advice and we'd have some pretty decent conversations. And at the end of that conversation, I'll turn around and walk out of his office. And I left the decision with him. And it was only when I sat in that chair as my chair. And even relieving doesn't give you the same sense of trepidation, but once you own the job and it's yours, that's when you realize the significance of the decisions that you have to make.
00:26:08:22 - 00:26:13:06
Grant Stevens
And it doesn't matter how much advice you get from people, you're still accountable for the decision. Yeah.
00:26:13:06 - 00:26:33:16
Daniel Franco
So I think that's conversations I have with CEOs on a daily basis is, is that exact experience as you sit there, you want someone to turn to you I think is what I mean. The boards and above is just I need someone to turn to. I actually need someone that I can just seek advice of and the importance of mentors and coaches and all that come into play now.
00:26:34:01 - 00:26:50:11
Grant Stevens
So I thought I thought I knew the the full extent of the role of Commissioner of police because of my close relationship with the previous commissioner. But it's only when you take ownership of the job that you truly understand the the complexities and the challenges that go with the role.
00:26:50:11 - 00:26:53:05
Yeah, still sort of.
00:26:53:05 - 00:27:08:10
Daniel Franco
Progressing up the ladder in your career so we can drop back slightly a bit again. Ask you and you actually told me not to ask you this question, but I'm going to ask you it here. I'm going to ask you about the Penske files.
00:27:08:10 - 00:27:12:09
Grant Stevens
I'm going to take the fifth.
00:27:12:09 - 00:27:28:06
Daniel Franco
We caught up a couple of weeks ago. We talked about your approach and how that your car was. You were the first person at work every single day and you were the last person to leave every single day. How true is that?
00:27:28:20 - 00:27:31:11
Grant Stevens
That may have been the perception.
00:27:31:11 - 00:27:33:23
And and it I didn't do it.
00:27:34:14 - 00:27:45:24
Grant Stevens
Deliberately to to to deceive people that I was there first and out last. I decided in order to try and maintain a level of fitness that I would ride my bike to and from work.
00:27:45:24 - 00:27:46:08
Yeah.
00:27:46:17 - 00:28:04:19
Grant Stevens
But because I needed my uniform and other other stuff, I drive in on a monday, parked my car in the car park with my bike in the back of the car and then ride to and from and then drive home on Friday night. Yeah. And it created this perception among some of my peers that I was burning the candle at both ends.
00:28:04:19 - 00:28:06:18
And I.
00:28:06:18 - 00:28:09:18
Grant Stevens
Chose not to correct their perception.
00:28:09:18 - 00:28:10:10
I love it.
00:28:10:20 - 00:28:16:02
Daniel Franco
And was it was it true that your boss came up to come up to you and said.
00:28:16:21 - 00:28:17:14
He said, What's going.
00:28:17:14 - 00:28:19:04
Grant Stevens
On? I said, What do you mean?
00:28:19:21 - 00:28:24:16
They said, Your car's here all the time. And I said, Well, Gary, we do what we do.
00:28:25:13 - 00:28:26:16
Grant Stevens
So I didn't I didn't lie to him.
00:28:27:16 - 00:28:27:24
But he.
00:28:27:24 - 00:28:28:11
Grant Stevens
Figured it out.
00:28:28:11 - 00:28:35:09
Daniel Franco
Pretty good. The walking around with the piece of paper, all of the above would have come into play. It's in there. So you didn't sleep under the desk at any point, though? Not.
00:28:35:14 - 00:28:36:24
Grant Stevens
The desk was never big enough to sleep.
00:28:36:24 - 00:28:37:23
Under for.
00:28:37:23 - 00:28:40:13
Daniel Franco
Those who don't know, we are referring to Sonnenfeld.
00:28:40:23 - 00:28:41:15
Absolutely.
00:28:41:19 - 00:28:49:16
Daniel Franco
An episode where George was pretending to be busy and the Penske files.
00:28:49:16 - 00:28:49:21
Look.
00:28:50:14 - 00:28:51:23
Grant Stevens
I've never pretended to be busy.
00:28:51:23 - 00:29:08:12
Daniel Franco
No, that's right. You always busy? Yeah, correct. As you would be in your role because part of the police training communication would be seriously one of the the greatest weapons that you have in your repertoire.
00:29:08:14 - 00:29:09:06
Grant Stevens
Absolutely.
00:29:09:06 - 00:29:10:19
Daniel Franco
And walking out into.
00:29:11:02 - 00:29:12:02
It's that that's the.
00:29:12:02 - 00:29:31:23
Grant Stevens
First thing we expect police officers to use before they start thinking about other tactical options. Um, communication is a key part of being a police officer and it's not just about confronting situations, but it's about, you know, getting information from witnesses and victims. You know, you have to be empathetic. You have to have to be able to listen.
00:29:33:03 - 00:29:37:10
Grant Stevens
Yeah, good communication is an absolute essential for a good police officer.
00:29:37:20 - 00:30:04:08
Daniel Franco
I'm obviously have the right to assume that that's what is highly taught in those trainings, right? Where you say, Yep, I'm going to rely on my training. Can you talk to us about the art of communication and what you are taught in your career as an early police officer and how that might apply to those in business and dealing with conflict, dealing with tough situations, dealing with influence.
00:30:04:08 - 00:30:05:09
Daniel Franco
Yeah, that's sort of I.
00:30:05:09 - 00:30:29:10
Grant Stevens
Think our focus on communication now is as in terms of what we provide for our recruits, is probably far more sophisticated than what we had when I went through the academy. You know, that was a long time ago. And the training was probably consistent with the times in terms of the level of complexity that went with policing.
00:30:29:10 - 00:30:46:20
Grant Stevens
But it's built into all of our leadership programs, detective training. Yeah, every opportunity we get to bring people in as a group for development, then a part of that will be communication. And it's particularly relevant to certain parts of the work we do. And detectives are a really good example of that.
00:30:46:20 - 00:30:47:21
It's yeah.
00:30:48:03 - 00:31:01:12
Grant Stevens
The fundamental skill that detectives have is the ability to talk to people and listen and synthesize information and make the most of it. And you get into our leadership development and communication is a really important part.
00:31:01:17 - 00:31:15:21
Daniel Franco
It would be have you do you have you ever read Chris Voss? His book Never Split the difference. No, it's it's it's a really great book and I recommend it to anyone listening. It is Chris Voss was a detective and a.
00:31:16:08 - 00:31:16:17
What do they.
00:31:16:17 - 00:31:30:03
Daniel Franco
Call it when someone's held ransom or something like that. It was a negotiator. Hostage. A hostage negotiator. That's right. So he's written the book on all the techniques that they were taught in those situations and had a D.
00:31:30:05 - 00:31:30:13
Yeah.
00:31:31:00 - 00:32:06:18
Daniel Franco
debunker situation I guess if that's the right word. Do you I mean, you love your job and you've done some amazing things. You've worked across all many different departments and and including H.R., which we will touch on in a sec. But you said and I've heard you say previously, that one of the most proud moments in your career was the discovery of some of the sex crimes against children and, you know, putting these bad guys away on that topic.
00:32:06:18 - 00:32:16:15
Daniel Franco
You would have seen some pretty horrific things in your time that wouldn't sit with you. Values said. How do you compartmentalize?
00:32:17:15 - 00:32:43:18
Grant Stevens
That's actually a tough question to answer. I'm not sure how you do like we once again sort of going back to my time as a trainee and a junior officer and a detective, we were far less sophisticated in terms of the support we provided as an organization to our people. And a lot of it was, you know, relying on your own coping mechanisms to deal with some of the stuff that you had to experience.
00:32:43:18 - 00:33:18:09
Grant Stevens
But I don't think there'd be a single police officer out there that hasn't had dozens of traumatic experiences that they've had to deal with. The average person, you know, might have one or two significant incidents in their life that really has the potential to traumatize them. But police officers dealing with it almost on a daily basis, dozens and dozens of occasions when you know the potential for their harm to their own psychological well-being is is there a lot of it is about personal resilience, I think.
00:33:18:21 - 00:33:49:11
Grant Stevens
Um, but organizationally we're far more tuned into that now and we're, you know, educating our people to recognize when they're not traveling well, what support networks are available to them and encouraging people to take advantage of those, those support mechanisms. Not an easy thing because there is still a stigma attached to mental health issues. Then if you're struggling with the nature of the work, it's not an easy thing to put your hand up.
00:33:49:11 - 00:33:57:00
Grant Stevens
I recognize that. I wish it wasn't the case because you can't you can't rely on personal resilience. We're all wired differently.
00:33:57:04 - 00:33:57:17
And.
00:33:58:13 - 00:34:21:16
Grant Stevens
We can all deal with a whole heap of stuff, but you never know what is going to be the thing that triggers a reaction that puts you under stress. That's the nature of policing. And I've seen a lot of things that float back through my head at different times. And child sexual abuse is one of those, you know, child exploitation images.
00:34:21:16 - 00:34:40:03
Grant Stevens
Um, I'll absolutely take my hat off to people who dedicate their professional life to investigating child sexual abuse. I've seen a lot of stuff and some pretty horrific stuff, but the stuff that seems to impact me most is child sexual abuse.
00:34:40:03 - 00:35:12:04
Daniel Franco
My wife worked in child protection, and I never forget the first week she worked in child protection. She came home and there was a case where literally that week a child had passed away and, um, she didn't go into all the details, but she told me roughly the scenario. And I remember thinking at that point, I love my bubble.
00:35:12:19 - 00:35:21:19
Daniel Franco
I actually don't want to know about what you are going to see. And I think we made a decision as a family at that point. It's like you can't bring that stuff on.
00:35:21:20 - 00:35:22:00
Yeah.
00:35:22:13 - 00:35:50:23
Daniel Franco
You cannot. I can I not hear it because it actually affects me and the I mean, social media these days is pretty if you if you go on Twitter or Reddit or any of these and you look up anything, can see videos of what happens out in the streets. And, and I've seen some of these videos and I cannot get those images out of my head watching it on, on a, on a screen, let alone someone talking to me about it.
00:35:51:05 - 00:35:57:08
Daniel Franco
Yeah. When you talk about mental health, how do you manage a workforce that is seeing these traumatic things on a daily basis?
00:35:57:08 - 00:36:00:00
Well, that's that's it.
00:36:00:10 - 00:36:09:20
Grant Stevens
We invest heavily into the wellbeing of our people, but despite the amount of money we invest, you know, I could probably double it, spend it wisely.
00:36:09:21 - 00:36:10:06
Yeah.
00:36:10:23 - 00:36:34:16
Grant Stevens
So we, you know, from the very beginning, from, you know, even even in terms of our selection processes for people that we are looking to recruit, we're doing this isometric testing to make a get some indication of the ability to deal with traumatic situations, personal resilience, stress management, because we we have a pretty good understanding of the sorts of things they're going to be exposed to once they get out from the academy.
00:36:34:16 - 00:36:58:20
Grant Stevens
So it starts as early as that, and then it's about a constant application of those wellbeing principles and providing access to the right supports. It's, it's something we are deeply concerned about. And like I said, we don't, we just don't want to leave people to rely on their own resources or their own personal resilience to get through this stuff.
00:36:58:20 - 00:37:00:21
Grant Stevens
You know, we need them to do the job they do.
00:37:01:02 - 00:37:01:12
Yeah.
00:37:01:13 - 00:37:05:00
Grant Stevens
And we need to make sure they're capable of doing it day in, day out.
00:37:05:19 - 00:37:14:15
Daniel Franco
And I think that day in, day out is the part that I mean, how do you how do you show up every day at work? Switching on Lucky, is there an on and off switch that you have?
00:37:15:03 - 00:37:17:09
Um, look.
00:37:17:21 - 00:37:18:18
Grant Stevens
Yes, there should be.
00:37:18:18 - 00:37:21:03
Yeah, but if I.
00:37:21:03 - 00:37:37:10
Grant Stevens
If I think personally, I'm not sure about the on off switch, I don't think I ever switch off, particularly in these senior roles like that. It is a constant thing. Yeah. You don't hang your head up as you're walking out of the office at 5:00 as the commissioner and not think about it until 8:00 the next morning. Phones always ringing.
00:37:38:07 - 00:37:55:15
Grant Stevens
Even when the phone is not ringing, you're thinking about things because, you know, there's a lot of complexity in the size of the business we are. And so I don't think there is a genuine on off switch. And if you love what you do, it's hard to switch off. And if you are motivated by what you do as.
00:37:55:15 - 00:37:56:07
Grant Stevens
Well, you know.
00:37:57:01 - 00:38:00:18
It's it's just not that like. Yeah, no. If you're.
00:38:01:13 - 00:38:31:14
Grant Stevens
You know, if you're in a job you don't enjoy or it's relatively straightforward or, you know, very process oriented, maybe that's the case. But when you're talking about complex, dynamic, fast moving situations, you know, stressful situations, then you never really switch off on. I think and in my context and I'm sure I can speak for a lot of police officers once you've been in for a while, being a police officer becomes part of who you are and there's a sense of pride that goes with that know.
00:38:31:16 - 00:38:50:06
Grant Stevens
But it really changes how you see yourself and how other people see you. So yeah, you talking about friends, asking you about the job. There's not too many social functions police officers go to where someone doesn't come up to them and talk about the job. So even in that social context, if you have switched off, there's probably there someone flicking the switch.
00:38:50:06 - 00:39:05:21
Daniel Franco
I had a wedding on a Friday, Saturday last on the weekend, just passed and there was a police officer sitting across the table from me, his friend. I won't mention names, but I'm talking about the ecom and all the above. And I was just like, Yeah, I don't know how.
00:39:05:21 - 00:39:06:09
You do that.
00:39:07:03 - 00:39:30:00
Daniel Franco
I do not know because I, I think about my position as a CEO, leader of a business. And, you know, there might be a legal thing or there might be a conversation with a client that didn't go well or we lost a job or a big tender that we put forward. And the disappointment that I take home sometimes my wife can read it on my face.
00:39:30:00 - 00:39:43:11
Daniel Franco
The moment I walk through the door, my kids can sense that dad just needs it, you know, probably just to go for a run or something and get it clear his mind before he gets into family life.
00:39:43:11 - 00:39:46:14
Is that how do you.
00:39:47:04 - 00:40:06:17
Daniel Franco
I think my question is those those thoughts that aren't leave what you've seen then on leave whereas you know, pushing aside a legal thing or pushing aside a lost job is this one minor compared to what you've seen and what you've going through? How do you prepare when you do go home at night?
00:40:07:03 - 00:40:52:08
Grant Stevens
What the sorts of stuff we're talking about that police officers do with every day is not really part of my day anymore. Yeah, I get briefings on a lot of stuff and I'm still exposed to some pretty graphic material that relate to child sexual abuse or, you know, murders, other other crimes that my people are investigating. But and from a personal point of view, I, I seem to have that ability to compartmentalize things from a, you know, the complexities around my job, though, and some of the, you know, the budget challenges or the strategic issues we're dealing with or, you know, issues that potentially impact on the reputation of the organization.
00:40:53:18 - 00:41:10:20
Grant Stevens
They come home with me, and one of my problems is I live about seven kilometers from home. And quite often if I get a good run in traffic, I'll get home before I've really compartmentalized that stuff and I'll walk through the back door and I'll get told to walk out and come back in again because I've brought that crap home with me
00:41:11:12 - 00:41:11:18
Grant Stevens
Well, it's.
00:41:11:18 - 00:41:18:24
Daniel Franco
Great that your wife, has the and your family have the self-awareness or the the awareness to know that.
00:41:19:21 - 00:41:21:11
Grant Stevens
I'm not sure if it's awareness or intolerance.
00:41:22:19 - 00:41:27:10
It's probably healthy intolerance. Yeah, that. Yeah, she's turned around. Go out.
00:41:27:24 - 00:41:30:00
Grant Stevens
Come in again and say, hey, yeah, let's restart.
00:41:30:00 - 00:41:50:03
Daniel Franco
Yeah, I know. And I know you're not exposed to it. Right. But you hear about the stories that happen, especially within the walls of South Australia. The boundaries of South Australia in Adelaide particularly is what I'm talking about now. And you let your kids walk around outside knowing that there is some of these type of people out in the world.
00:41:50:07 - 00:41:54:02
Daniel Franco
Is that how do you manage that situation?
00:41:54:02 - 00:41:54:07
Look.
00:41:54:15 - 00:42:27:09
Grant Stevens
And I'm not just saying this because it serves my interests as the Commissioner of police to say it. But South Australia is one of the safest places in the world and this is part of the problem of social media. Yeah, there are positives and negatives to social media, but one of the negatives is that you have this excess, I think an excessive exposure to the bad things that happen and the crime, the assaults, the sexual assaults, the abductions, all all of these things that are happening globally are delivered to your device and you're looking at it almost every day.
00:42:27:24 - 00:42:49:11
Grant Stevens
It used to be your perception of crime or safety was based on what was on the 6:00 news or in the advertiser. We are far more exposed now, which alters our sense of safety and our perception about the safety of our children. That's not to say you should be reckless with what you let your children do. But yeah, we're in a very safe place.
00:42:49:11 - 00:43:08:23
Grant Stevens
And, you know, we don't want to be sort of creating a generation of children who haven't had the opportunity to make mistakes and sort of experience life because we're overly protective. It's it's about balance. And we're in a great place to be able to let our children take some of those risks.
00:43:10:05 - 00:43:47:06
Daniel Franco
I remember growing up, I, I lived at Grange here in South Australia, I live in Henley now, so I'm a stay local, one of those typical South Australians and it's only moved the stone's throw away. And we had a through Grange there's a, there's a beautiful creek that runs, runs. And I remember going out as a kid, probably ten or 11 years old, getting on the bike had my my good mate across the road Matt his name was and we get used to it on the bike and just and ride down this creek and our aim was to get lost like that was it?
00:43:47:06 - 00:43:49:14
Yeah. Let's like let's just.
00:43:49:20 - 00:44:02:21
Daniel Franco
Disassociate so disassociate ourselves with the complete reality of where we are and try to figure out how to get home from there and see if we're good enough. Our mental compass can get us home. I would never let my children do that. No.
00:44:03:12 - 00:44:06:16
I.
00:44:06:16 - 00:44:10:20
Grant Stevens
Your children are more connected to you than you ever were with your parents when you when you're out and about.
00:44:10:24 - 00:44:11:07
Yeah.
00:44:12:04 - 00:44:37:02
Grant Stevens
I remember as a you know, I was still in primary school living in Kensington near the parade and Portrush Road, riding my bike with a mate to the gums, which was up off of I think it's off Glenburn Road. And that's I don't think I would've let my kids do that. But even if I did, I probably got a mobile phone in their back pocket that if they get into strife, they can ring me or the police.
00:44:37:02 - 00:44:38:16
So it's a bit.
00:44:38:20 - 00:44:44:02
Grant Stevens
Yeah, I do think you need to find that, that sweet spot where the kids can go out and have those sorts of experiences.
00:44:45:11 - 00:45:02:14
Daniel Franco
Do you think it's warranted though? Like, I would go out at nine in the morning and not come home till dark, like we were just out all day and with, you know, taking a couple of dollars with us and scrap some lunch on the way through. And then at night time, we'd, you know, come home and we know 530 dinner was going to be on the table sort of thing.
00:45:02:15 - 00:45:07:10
And the what's really, I don't know, maybe.
00:45:07:10 - 00:45:27:03
Daniel Franco
Remember should ask my parents this but the fact of the child they don't know where their child is all day and not having a worry about it. Like if I've got to my daughters have a watch now, it's called the Space Talk Watch. It's a great company here in South Australia that have developed a watch where it's got like it's a phone where you can call and it's got the GPS tracker in it.
00:45:27:03 - 00:45:34:10
Daniel Franco
So you can see when. But even with that watch on, I still wouldn't let them go out. Do you think it's warranted my way of thinking or.
00:45:34:23 - 00:46:05:16
Grant Stevens
I think I think you need to take you need to take steps to ensure your children are safe. But you can't you can't be looking over their shoulder all the time. Like my youngest son got into mountain biking and as a probably year, seven year, eight year nine, he was, you know, catching the train up to the top of Belair with his mates and you know, that disappeared in the morning and come back in in the afternoon.
00:46:06:09 - 00:46:10:05
Grant Stevens
Yeah he had a mobile phone so. Yeah, yeah. And you'll get in touch with him.
00:46:10:05 - 00:46:14:10
But it's about Yeah.
00:46:14:12 - 00:46:27:03
Grant Stevens
You just maintain some perspective and remember that you're exposed to far more information now that influences and colors you're thinking that probably doesn't necessarily sit with reality quite thoroughly.
00:46:27:22 - 00:46:29:09
You were all.
00:46:29:09 - 00:46:33:20
Grant Stevens
Pretty safe in South Australia, but that doesn't mean bad things won't happen. Correct. And I think.
00:46:33:24 - 00:46:49:03
Daniel Franco
I'm not I don't want you to say yes and your kids outright like that's not the I think. I mean but you mentioned South Australia is the safest place as a parent. Can I feel comfortable if we do tick all the right boxes that my kids can go out?
00:46:49:08 - 00:46:52:04
Grant Stevens
Well, it's another dimension to this is.
00:46:52:20 - 00:46:52:24
That.
00:46:53:09 - 00:46:54:22
Grant Stevens
The child you're talking about? You know that's.
00:46:54:22 - 00:46:55:04
True.
00:46:55:08 - 00:47:16:14
Grant Stevens
How confident they are you know how resilient they are. Yeah. The friendship group, the hanging around with them, your understanding of exactly what they're going to do when they're out and about. This is a decision parents have to make for themselves. But, you know, fear of being kidnaped. That's an extreme you know, you you need to find some perspective.
00:47:16:16 - 00:47:24:12
Daniel Franco
So it's not often that you hear cases like that. I mean, that you can talk to it. But is it it's not like it's happening every single day.
00:47:24:21 - 00:47:25:12
Grant Stevens
No, of course not.
00:47:25:12 - 00:47:26:13
And you know, you.
00:47:26:13 - 00:47:52:02
Grant Stevens
Talk about what happened 30 years ago. Yeah, 40 years ago. You think about some of the most horrific offending that's been committed against children happened in organizations that were established to provide services to children. And, you know, the framework we have in place now that strictly vets people who are involved in providing services and activities for kids, you know, should give us a level of comfort.
00:47:53:22 - 00:48:13:04
Grant Stevens
And, you know, if your children should be able to go down the street on their bikes and it make any difference if they're 100 meters or 400 meters or 500 meters. Proper parental control needs to find that balance. And it's it's an individual decision for each family as to what I think the children can do.
00:48:13:04 - 00:48:16:11
Daniel Franco
I think you're on in regards to the kids. You should be more open about targeting your kids and.
00:48:16:13 - 00:48:17:04
Grant Stevens
Absolutely.
00:48:17:10 - 00:48:29:05
Daniel Franco
Guiltier digressed a little bit. Let's move back to the the career of Grant and you did lead the human resources team at one point.
00:48:29:05 - 00:48:48:20
Grant Stevens
Yes, I started I am I got called into the commissioner's office. There was a rotation of assistant commissioners and I was thoroughly enjoying the portfolio I had. And he called me in and told me that he was moving me to HR. And I think I think I thanked him for it. I went home and a little cry.
00:48:48:20 - 00:48:50:19
Daniel Franco
I work in the world of HR as well.
00:48:51:12 - 00:48:58:05
Grant Stevens
I'd say it's my own fault because my tertiary studies were in human resource development. So.
00:48:58:17 - 00:49:00:00
Daniel Franco
So you had an interest in it?
00:49:01:08 - 00:49:09:03
Grant Stevens
I think I fell into that in terms of my tertiary studies. I did management with a HR development and.
00:49:09:09 - 00:49:10:22
Daniel Franco
Something that you chose was something that you were.
00:49:10:22 - 00:49:11:08
Told to do.
00:49:11:09 - 00:49:16:08
Grant Stevens
No, no, I chose that. I chose that as I just never really thought of to sort of box me into a corner.
00:49:16:08 - 00:49:18:15
But I wasn't thrilled.
00:49:18:15 - 00:49:50:06
Grant Stevens
About going to H.R., but over the over the time I was there, I really, really got into it and enjoyed it and saw a side of the business that I really hadn't been deeply involved in other than, you know, a user of the HR services as a manager. Um, and, you know, on reflection, I can say with a lot of confidence that, that, that opportunity, I didn't see it as an opportunity at the time, but that opportunity was probably quite pivotal in me becoming the deputy commissioner and then ultimately the commissioner of police.
00:49:50:16 - 00:49:54:18
Grant Stevens
Yeah, understanding a deeper understanding of all aspects of the business.
00:49:55:17 - 00:50:00:02
Daniel Franco
So it's the human part isn't it, to human resources.
00:50:00:02 - 00:50:11:18
Grant Stevens
Yeah, but there's a lot of administration there is that and that's the side that sort of would be the detractor as opposed to anyone thinking about where they might want to be beginning.
00:50:11:20 - 00:50:14:23
Daniel Franco
But it helps you see the forest from the trees.
00:50:15:00 - 00:50:36:20
Grant Stevens
Yeah, absolutely. It's yeah, our our of what? Our budget in South Pole is over a billion dollars I think is about 1.3 billion. I reckon about 80, 82% of that is salaries. So you know the core of our business is people. Yeah. So managing our people and looking after our people, that is. Yeah, that's priority number one.
00:50:36:20 - 00:50:38:12
Daniel Franco
I think it would have given you a really.
00:50:38:12 - 00:50:38:23
Good.
00:50:40:05 - 00:50:43:12
Daniel Franco
Indication of the culture of Police at the time.
00:50:44:10 - 00:50:58:11
Grant Stevens
I think you have a good indication of the culture as a result of your exposure to different aspects of policing and just being a part of the organization. The the time in h.r. And I'm not making it sound like it was a long time. It was about 12 months.
00:50:58:11 - 00:50:58:15
Yeah.
00:50:59:14 - 00:51:08:00
Grant Stevens
But you understand the how the culture has to be managed. You sort of understand that as a manager anyway. But when you're in that human resource environment.
00:51:08:01 - 00:51:08:22
Daniel Franco
Thrust into it and.
00:51:08:22 - 00:51:10:20
Grant Stevens
It's part of your portfolio responsibility.
00:51:12:04 - 00:51:23:19
Daniel Franco
Now, I have to say this culture is not the responsibility of HR, right? It's the responsibility of the organization and the leaders that fall within the organization and everyone that plays a part.
00:51:24:02 - 00:51:25:02
Grant Stevens
Absolutely.
00:51:25:02 - 00:51:28:11
Daniel Franco
So let's let's actually clarify that it's not a role of h.r.
00:51:28:12 - 00:51:57:10
Grant Stevens
No, but we've just changed. Just a few months ago, we changed the title of human resources service to people, culture and wellbeing. Right? So you have to have one of your executive team need to have portfolio responsibility for culture. It's not their job to manage culture. Yeah, but you know, there's a whole heap of material that needs to sit formally defining culture, the ethics, the values of the organization.
00:51:57:21 - 00:52:13:21
Grant Stevens
And that's that's got to be monitored oversight. And that's where the culture piece comes in. The culture is the responsibility of every single person in the organization. And without everyone committed to a positive culture, then you start to see bad things emerging.
00:52:14:02 - 00:52:26:19
Daniel Franco
I love it. Music to my ears will cut that up and use it as a promo. The because we work a lot in culture. Synergy IQ we're an organization that manages complex change and and you can imagine culture.
00:52:27:04 - 00:52:27:21
Grant Stevens
Absolutely.
00:52:27:21 - 00:52:42:02
Daniel Franco
Falls in part of that the workforce workforce planning is really and we'll get into that with the policing world shortly you have a civilian in the head of people and cultural. Is is that is that deliberate?
00:52:42:02 - 00:53:11:07
Grant Stevens
Yes, it is. We we've had civilians in the past. And I think it was a period of about almost 20 years where we've had assistant commissioners as the head of human resources. And we have civilian HR professionals within the structure. We took the view just a couple of years ago that, you know, we have a director.
00:53:11:07 - 00:53:11:15
Of.
00:53:13:19 - 00:53:44:14
Grant Stevens
I.T and communications who is a professional from that field. Director of business, is a civilian who manages our finances fleet facilities. Why wouldn't we apply the same principle to human resources and recruit an HR professional to lead that part of our business? And we that's what we've done. So it's working really well. We've got senior police that support our director, but it's just, it's to me, it's a commonsense decision.
00:53:44:14 - 00:53:51:08
Grant Stevens
Yeah. People invest heavily to develop their skillset in a, in a professional field and.
00:53:51:08 - 00:53:52:02
You know, we've had.
00:53:52:14 - 00:54:19:01
Grant Stevens
Reasonably good success with assistant commissioners running that area, but it's a massive learning curve for a generalist police officer who's moved into the executive to step into that HR role and get up to speed. Because if I'm if I'm doing the right thing by my assistant commissioners, I'm going to give them a diversity of roles over the course of their executive career so that they if they choose to compete for the commissioner's position or the deputies, they've got a broad skillset.
00:54:19:23 - 00:54:41:19
Grant Stevens
Whereas if so, they will expect to be moved, which means you've got this lead in time where they're learning their craft and just as they're probably getting to understand the environment, but probably time to move on whereas people cultural wellbeing director she's she's in that role and that's her skill set she comes she virtually hits the ground running.
00:54:41:19 - 00:54:44:13
Grant Stevens
Yeah and we get a lot of benefit from that.
00:54:45:07 - 00:54:48:08
Daniel Franco
She's brilliant. She was instrumental in organizing this chat between us too.
00:54:48:09 - 00:54:49:21
Grant Stevens
And she must be brilliant.
00:54:49:21 - 00:54:51:00
Daniel Franco
Shout out to Kim Shuri.
00:54:51:06 - 00:54:54:21
Kim, Kim's doing a great job. And, you know, it was it was a big.
00:54:54:21 - 00:55:14:02
Grant Stevens
Move for us to move from an assistant commissioner to a director. I didn't think it was a big step. I thought it was a sensible step. And Kim has really stepped into the role and embraced it. And she's got some serious challenges in terms of where policing sits at the moment from a recruiting training development. And she's and also that welfare piece as well wellbeing.
00:55:14:16 - 00:55:22:11
Grant Stevens
Um, but that's that's the benefit of having someone who comes from that environment. They've, they come with a whole toolkit ready to go.
00:55:22:21 - 00:55:27:02
Absolutely. Do you believe your role.
00:55:27:21 - 00:55:39:06
Daniel Franco
As commissioner of police, your main role is to build a high performing culture?
00:55:39:06 - 00:55:59:10
Grant Stevens
I wouldn't say it's the main role, and I say that because I would find it difficult to split off the various obligations I have, pick one over the others. But it is it is up the log. In terms of priorities, a strong and positive culture is a critical priority for this role. And it's it's fundamental to what we do.
00:56:00:04 - 00:56:01:11
Daniel Franco
Is it where you want it to be?
00:56:02:20 - 00:56:29:17
Grant Stevens
I'm I'm really proud of the culture of the South Australia police. I think we are successful in delivering a policing service to South Australia. I think we are instrumental in South Australia thriving because we provide a safe community and I think we have an exceptional team of people, albeit over 6000 people, who demonstrate all the positive aspects of our culture.
00:56:30:20 - 00:56:53:21
Grant Stevens
Having said that, I don't think you can afford to rest on your laurels and think that without constant monitoring and maintenance that your culture is going to stay as a positive one. You have be directing it and guiding it, and there are occasions when you have to intervene heavily. When you identify aspects of your culture that are negative or counterproductive.
00:56:55:02 - 00:57:16:22
Grant Stevens
We had a situation where we became aware of aspects of our culture that needed to change, and that was around sexual harassment and discrimination. And we've been working quite aggressively since about 2016 to ensure that that aspect of our culture is where we want it to be.
00:57:18:14 - 00:57:21:08
Daniel Franco
I mean, it's going to play a really big part in attracting the right talent.
00:57:21:13 - 00:57:36:15
Grant Stevens
Absolutely. We yet historically, policing has been seen as a male dominated industry profession, and we've been working to encourage women to join policing as a career.
00:57:37:03 - 00:57:52:05
Daniel Franco
I think you use the example when we spoke last that if you close your eyes and think about a South Australian police officer, what do you see? You know, and I mean, you you say you're a white male, don't you?
00:57:52:05 - 00:58:14:22
Grant Stevens
Yes. You know, that's that's that's the reality is and this is not unique to policing. If you think about a nurse, you probably think of a woman, a teacher, you probably think of a woman, you know, a fire officer. You think of a male police officer. Your mind's eye or mental picture is a male and we need to change that.
00:58:15:14 - 00:58:35:08
Grant Stevens
But it doesn't change overnight. And part of that is making sure we are an organization that will attract women and ethnic minorities in order to make sure we are that organization, you need to look at your culture to make sure your culture reflects those expectations that people will have coming in.
00:58:36:05 - 00:58:38:09
Daniel Franco
We've got to set these people up for success, right?
00:58:38:13 - 00:58:39:04
Absolutely.
00:58:39:04 - 00:58:44:16
Daniel Franco
And then what? I want to join a place where they're welcome, they're accepted enough to put up with the bullshit of sexual harassment.
00:58:44:16 - 00:58:45:03
Well, they need to.
00:58:45:05 - 00:58:48:07
Grant Stevens
You need to come to work knowing that you're going to be safe, respected and valued.
00:58:48:11 - 00:58:49:02
Absolutely.
00:58:49:02 - 00:59:02:22
Grant Stevens
And, you know, three basic principles that everyone should expect. And that's why we needed to do some work to make sure that when we start to recruit women, we're going to be able to retain them because the organization includes them.
00:59:03:00 - 00:59:23:09
Daniel Franco
Yeah, I have a drink if you want things. So in saying that, there's a there's a question here of you're trying to attract female. Is it a 5050 split that you're after? How is.
00:59:24:06 - 00:59:32:18
Grant Stevens
It in 2016, we started a program or an initiative where all of our recruit courses have to be 5050 gender.
00:59:32:18 - 00:59:35:17
Split.
00:59:35:17 - 00:59:39:24
Grant Stevens
And we've there's been some hard yards in terms of acceptance of that policy.
00:59:40:21 - 00:59:41:10
Within.
00:59:41:21 - 01:00:01:20
Grant Stevens
South Australia police and also within the community. The perception that good men are missing out on jobs in policing is not true. But that was a perception that we had to deal with and also a perception that we must be lowering our standards if we're getting more in, which is also a fallacy. Anyone who gets into the police academy has met our standards and the right people to be there.
01:00:02:20 - 01:00:20:22
Grant Stevens
It is a is it a it is the fact, though, that if you may be suitable as a male applicant, but because of our endeavor to make it 5050, you might have to wait till the next course does. Okay, so no one misses out. If they're good enough to be a South Australian police officer, we want them, we actually need them.
01:00:21:24 - 01:00:32:20
Grant Stevens
And the first priority is to make sure we have enough police fulfilling their obligations in South Australia. The second, and equally as important is that it's a 5050 gender split.
01:00:32:20 - 01:00:59:00
Daniel Franco
One thing that's going through my mind and is the is the conversation we had before about the sense of overwhelm and getting thrusted into a world where you're feeling uncomfortable. Now I can walk down the street and see a group of young guys stand on the side of the road dressed in what I wouldn't call suit attire and and feel threatened.
01:00:59:12 - 01:01:12:09
Daniel Franco
And I'm a big six foot 200 plus kilo guy, and I feel threatened from a female perspective. Is that something that's holding them back and holding your numbers back?
01:01:12:24 - 01:01:13:09
Um.
01:01:14:00 - 01:01:28:07
Grant Stevens
That's probably a question for some of the women we have working in policing. And I have to say, from my observation is they, they accept that that challenge and that responsibility just as well as men do.
01:01:29:12 - 01:01:30:05
Daniel Franco
It, no doubt.
01:01:30:12 - 01:01:41:02
Grant Stevens
And I think it's this is where communication becomes an essential in terms of your ability to perform well as a police officer. Is communication will contribute or will assist in avoiding confrontation.
01:01:41:03 - 01:01:42:19
Yeah. Which is probably.
01:01:43:23 - 01:01:46:01
Daniel Franco
At best skill set that females are better.
01:01:46:01 - 01:01:47:16
At. Yeah, it's communication.
01:01:47:16 - 01:02:12:00
Grant Stevens
I think we can acknowledge that. But you put a a male into a hostile situation, then communication probably is going to break down. Well, it'll break down more quickly because of the just the nature of who men are, whereas women are more likely to pursue that, that that communication approach more successfully.
01:02:13:09 - 01:02:19:02
Daniel Franco
So while we're on the topic of attracting talent, Gen Zs millennials it's a different world out there.
01:02:19:02 - 01:02:20:07
Have similar. Yeah.
01:02:20:13 - 01:02:22:16
Daniel Franco
What are some of the things that you're seeing.
01:02:22:16 - 01:03:06:03
Grant Stevens
Well where from a recruiting point of view we're starting to think about how we position ourselves as an organization that will be an attractive proposition to these younger generations. We're getting past the point where there are some challenges inherently in the fact that that whether or not policing can provide what people expecting from a professional career. Now, you know, people who have grown up on devices coming into a learning environment where the first thing we give them is a big, thick book to read, you know, full of all of the the process that they have to get through, that we're using technology that might not be cutting edge.
01:03:06:03 - 01:03:08:04
Yeah, it's going to.
01:03:08:13 - 01:03:10:08
Daniel Franco
Open a YouTube. We can get it right.
01:03:10:15 - 01:03:11:04
Yeah, they're.
01:03:11:07 - 01:03:11:16
Daniel Franco
Watching.
01:03:12:18 - 01:03:34:20
Grant Stevens
And then we got the the challenge of the level of flexibility that people expect from their their employment. You know, we are you know, we're still sort of paramilitary. Yeah. We wear uniforms, we have hierarchies, we expect our people to do what they're told when they're told, because that's how we manage critical incidents and emergency situations. And it's how we do it safely.
01:03:35:21 - 01:04:00:18
Grant Stevens
We have shift working rosters that need to be filled. You know, we we don't have the opportunity to provide that level of flexibility that a lot of younger generations expect from work. Now. So we need to be thinking about how we reconfigure policing to accommodate those requirements of the people that we're attracting, but also maintain that level of service that the community requires of us that big challenges.
01:04:00:18 - 01:04:04:15
Yeah, it would be, he says. It's this shift.
01:04:05:06 - 01:04:26:13
Daniel Franco
In thinking now, is there? There's so many different ways that you can earn some cash, right? Whether you're making YouTube or you're an influencer like these, things didn't happen when you were growing up. And I think one of the things that sort of struck out for me was that struck structure stuck out for me as as a civilian thinking about the police force.
01:04:26:13 - 01:04:27:15
Daniel Franco
You don't call the police force.
01:04:27:15 - 01:04:28:06
The police.
01:04:28:06 - 01:04:28:15
Grant Stevens
Service.
01:04:28:15 - 01:04:55:16
Daniel Franco
Police service? Yeah. I just thought about that as the police service. The idea of who you would like Leigh attract, like the cohort of who you would likely attract, would be quite small, right? So if you think and I'm going to use the example of America because it's like 300 million people and there's so many different levels of society that fall within it.
01:04:55:16 - 01:05:20:16
Daniel Franco
If you're from a low socioeconomic society, you can go to the army and you can learn discipline and all the above. And you and your community doesn't have a a thought process of the army and the way that that community might think about police. Right. There's a different there's a different viewpoint. Do you find the same struggles here?
01:05:20:16 - 01:05:49:18
Grant Stevens
I probably haven't turned my mind to that dimension. I'm really focused on the challenges we have in recruiting people into policing now. This is not about emerging generations or new generations entering the workforce. This is about, you know, our current pool of potential applicants that every jurisdiction in Australia is struggling to recruit police. So we're doing a huge amount of work to try and get figure out what the causes of that.
01:05:49:23 - 01:06:13:09
Grant Stevens
Yeah, um, you know, COVID plays a part in that I think. Yeah, people's perceptions of what police do has probably shifted as a result of what they've seen police officers doing as part of the nation's COVID response. Not every police service did it the same way. And we saw some pretty ugly pictures coming out of other states in terms of how police were dealing with people who were, you know, not following the COVID rules.
01:06:13:09 - 01:06:13:14
Yeah.
01:06:14:07 - 01:06:15:11
Grant Stevens
That's probably had an impact.
01:06:15:16 - 01:06:16:01
Absolutely.
01:06:16:02 - 01:06:39:22
Grant Stevens
Nationally on how people see policing. Um, and we're also at a point at the moment where we have almost full employment. So there's a lot of choice out there for people. And yeah, if I'm brutally honest, we don't have the most streamlined recruiting processes, so people probably get frustrated while they're waiting to hear back from us. Yeah. So we're we're doing as much as we can internal to speed those processes.
01:06:39:22 - 01:06:40:23
Daniel Franco
That lack of people, isn't it?
01:06:41:04 - 01:06:43:10
Yeah, it is. We can do more with.
01:06:43:10 - 01:06:45:20
Grant Stevens
More people, but we need the people to come to a certain level.
01:06:45:20 - 01:06:47:10
So is it.
01:06:47:10 - 01:06:51:09
Daniel Franco
Recruitment from a frontline or is it recruitment from office staff? Is it all the above?
01:06:51:16 - 01:06:53:09
Is everything everything? Yeah.
01:06:53:13 - 01:06:58:21
Grant Stevens
If you if we have more police, we need more administration staff to support those police.
01:06:58:21 - 01:07:02:11
So but, you know, we are we have quite.
01:07:03:16 - 01:07:23:23
Grant Stevens
And this is this comes back to came out people culture wellbeing director really turning our recruiting and selection processes on their head to make them as engaging as possible. So when when someone shows interest, we basically once we get our hooks in. Yeah. We don't let them go because you know not everyone who applies ends up getting through.
01:07:23:23 - 01:07:26:18
Grant Stevens
So we need to make sure we, we attract the right people.
01:07:26:19 - 01:07:27:03
Yeah.
01:07:27:03 - 01:07:32:06
Grant Stevens
And then push them through as quickly as possible and get them into the environment so they start to become a part of who we are.
01:07:32:19 - 01:07:59:04
Daniel Franco
We have a formula here. It's Synergy IQ where it's X equals six, right. Which is employee employee experience equals customer experience. And I believe that on a like on a note of where from a recruitment point of view, the same thing can be said if your employees are experiencing great things, are telling people about it, come to work, come to work and come work with, say, Paul.
01:07:59:04 - 01:08:02:23
Daniel Franco
What is really interesting to me is.
01:08:03:09 - 01:08:05:10
If police.
01:08:06:00 - 01:08:14:13
Daniel Franco
As a service, police as an organization can't recruit the amount of people that we need to manage as the population is growing.
01:08:14:21 - 01:08:15:13
What happens?
01:08:16:00 - 01:08:39:14
Grant Stevens
Well, I think I've got a solution for that. And part of that lies in the fact that we have a traditional mindset about police numbers and when we talk about increasing the size of the police service from a government perspective, historically it's been about more police, more more police in uniform and they'll make a commitment to funding additional police.
01:08:40:15 - 01:09:01:08
Grant Stevens
We need to step out of that. And policing is becoming more complex so we recruit people as general duties, police officers and over the course of their career, they find themselves moving into different specialized fields. Some of those fields take a lot of time to develop the expertize, and we have the potential to bring people in laterally who already have those skills.
01:09:01:08 - 01:09:03:19
Grant Stevens
And I think cyber crime is a really good example of that.
01:09:05:04 - 01:09:05:09
Yeah.
01:09:05:22 - 01:09:26:10
Grant Stevens
Your general duties police officer might have an interest in that, but for us to get them up to a level where they have the skills and qualifications to be effective in a cyber environment might take years. Whereas we can attract someone who's done tertiary studies in that, maybe even practice in the field. Yeah, come in laterally and start operating immediately.
01:09:26:10 - 01:09:48:15
Grant Stevens
So it's about diversifying our workforce, you know, having the right people, doing the right things. And there are some things that must be done by a police officer, but there's a range, other duties that we have police officers doing that we could re reconfigure to bring people in laterally who don't necessarily have to have gone through the academy, you know, learn how to drive police cars.
01:09:48:15 - 01:09:50:07
Grant Stevens
Yeah. Use firearms, tactical ops.
01:09:50:07 - 01:10:11:19
Daniel Franco
Well, this is workforce planning and thinking about it. Basically, I think we work with a lot of companies. If you think engineering or use an example of an engineering company that we have worked with is that engineers are hard to come by. And in the defense world there they're almost embedded in a way where one might go from one company to another company to another company and back and whoever's paying the most.
01:10:11:19 - 01:10:32:19
Daniel Franco
And yeah, and so we have to think about and through COVID times, we haven't been able to recruit externally or from internationally as well. So there's a lack of people coming in from overseas. So we think about if we've got three engineers, all with sort of 30% administration in their role. And so how do we take the administration off them.
01:10:32:19 - 01:10:44:01
Daniel Franco
Yeah. And give that to an industry or an administration officer and then that gives them full capacity and all of a sudden we might get more engineer engineering productivity. It's just about thinking, think about things slightly differently.
01:10:44:01 - 01:11:11:00
Grant Stevens
We've, you know, historically in South Australia, police officers have done the prosecuting for matters in the Magistrates Court and we've had a team of police, prosecutors made up of police officers who have done the training and development to move into that courtroom environment. And we were finding it more and more challenging to find officers who wanted to move into that space because the Magistrates Court has become more complex in the matters dealing with.
01:11:12:10 - 01:11:38:06
Grant Stevens
We took the step of recruiting and employing civilian solicitors who are now police solicitors and they make up about 30% of our prosecutor workforce now. So they're appearing in court prosecuting matters for police instead of police officers, which means we can push more police on the front lawn. And that's it's a great model, it's working really well for us and over time we would expect that we'll see more police solicitors than police officers in that.
01:11:38:06 - 01:11:39:15
Environment and works.
01:11:39:23 - 01:11:41:04
Daniel Franco
People are doing what they love.
01:11:41:21 - 01:11:43:10
Doing and we've got to.
01:11:43:10 - 01:12:06:12
Grant Stevens
Get past this mindset that we've had historically in police that you join police as a as a young person and that's it. Yeah. This is your career now. We will have you until you retire. Yeah. We need to move past that. That even with police officers, we should expect that this might not be their their final employer. Yeah, they might diversify and do something differently.
01:12:06:12 - 01:12:25:24
Grant Stevens
They may come back to us. They may not. The same with our civilians that we recruit, whether it be cybercrime, prosecutors, whatever. Well, whatever other field we can find, we might not have them forever, but they'll leave. I'm hoping they'll leave us with more experience for their own personal development and have left us in better shape than what they.
01:12:26:02 - 01:12:27:00
Grant Stevens
They arrived. Brilliant.
01:12:27:00 - 01:12:52:09
Daniel Franco
I love a level five leadership. Have you heard of that. It's a good good to great book by Jim Collins it's a level five leadership where a level five leaders thinking about how they can grow the people within their team to go off and create careers for themselves elsewhere other than where they are. It's not about how do we keep in control, it's about how do we grow and train so they can have an impact on the world in other ways.
01:12:52:09 - 01:12:57:16
Daniel Franco
So it's really great to hear that you guys are doing that. Is it a good job? Is it policing?
01:12:57:16 - 01:13:00:03
Is issue of.
01:13:00:08 - 01:13:28:21
Grant Stevens
I can't say. I've loved every minute of my career, but I don't have a lot of bad days that sort of drag me down. Yeah, I've really enjoyed if everybody has a career like I've had in terms of enjoyment, then I think we're pretty lucky. Look, I've loved every minute of it and you know, I talk to police officers all the time, notwithstanding some of the challenges that they face, some of the hardships, some of the frustrations, a lot of the demands.
01:13:29:12 - 01:13:56:08
Grant Stevens
I still love coming to work. Yeah. So it is a good job. It's a good organization. I'm really proud of our reputation within the South Australian community and our reputation and comes from the way our people do our job. You know, the organization itself I don't think has a reputation of integrity. The people who work for us have integrity and the way they do the job positively impacts on our reputation.
01:13:56:08 - 01:13:58:10
Grant Stevens
And that's what we enjoy as an organization, right?
01:13:59:15 - 01:14:01:16
Daniel Franco
Because with any organization. That's right. That's right.
01:14:01:16 - 01:14:03:21
Grant Stevens
It's about your people, it's how they do their job.
01:14:03:21 - 01:14:33:23
Daniel Franco
100% about you people talking about loving your job. You you rose to a bit of fame over the past couple of years going through and going through the what is the COVID years now as we look back, to be very honest with you, I didn't know who any other commissioner was in South Australia before you I mean, it wasn't something that front of mind and all of a sudden Grant Stevens is on the TV every single day.
01:14:33:23 - 01:14:38:19
Yeah, you you have.
01:14:39:12 - 01:15:00:08
Daniel Franco
You have received some upshift you in, in the of level of interest in you. And since being in how have you taken that on board and you know you have this humble approach of I'm just a regular old bike riding Grant Stevens. I don't know about this, this fame and fortune or fortune, but the fame that I'm sort of receiving at the moment.
01:15:00:19 - 01:15:01:14
Grant Stevens
I suppose the.
01:15:03:07 - 01:15:07:09
Fortune, doesn't it, that the role.
01:15:07:09 - 01:15:14:17
Grant Stevens
Of commissioner comes with some profile? Yeah, there's a lot of expectations about.
01:15:14:17 - 01:15:15:06
Daniel Franco
It, no doubt.
01:15:15:07 - 01:15:42:18
Grant Stevens
Being available for media and talking about current issues. But that sort of once we hit COVID, that was on steroids, it was just it was every day. And it's not just that it was there every day, but people's intense interest in what we were talking about. You know, draws drew so many people into watching these broadcasts or seeing it on, you know, social media feeds.
01:15:42:20 - 01:15:43:03
Daniel Franco
Yeah.
01:15:43:14 - 01:15:45:21
Grant Stevens
Um, it was, it was quite.
01:15:46:22 - 01:15:48:03
Quite different.
01:15:48:11 - 01:16:13:01
Grant Stevens
And. The consequence of that was wherever I would go, I'd be confronted in, in the community, whether I'm at the supermarket in a pair of jeans and t shirt or, you know, in any sort of formal capacity. But invariably people were really nice. Yeah. You know, they were coming up and thanking me and support for what we were doing and around COVID.
01:16:13:01 - 01:16:29:01
Grant Stevens
And yeah, the vast majority of people are really, really good. So it took a little bit to reconcile that that yeah, it being recognized so obviously was different. Mm.
01:16:29:14 - 01:16:45:12
Daniel Franco
I'm a little bit of, I don't know if you call it post-traumatic stress we're seeing you Nicholas area and Steven Marshall on the TV every day for however how long it was six. Eight. Like you guys were on TV every day.
01:16:45:20 - 01:16:47:13
Consistently through.
01:16:47:20 - 01:16:50:07
Grant Stevens
2020 It was pretty intense and parts of 2021.
01:16:50:07 - 01:17:09:17
Daniel Franco
Yeah. And I remember thinking if it got to the point where they started swapping people in and out, who was doing the press interviews, but if you three were on TV, something serious was about to be said. How did how did you manage that relationship with the two? It seemed like a public point of view. Things were.
01:17:10:11 - 01:17:11:13
A little bit argy.
01:17:11:13 - 01:17:14:14
Daniel Franco
Bargy here and there and there's a bit of difference of opinions.
01:17:14:14 - 01:17:15:04
And no.
01:17:15:04 - 01:17:32:16
Grant Stevens
No, it's well, for context, as the state coordinator, I was the decision maker in terms of what rules we put in place or what we removed in terms of restrictions. Um, I was supported by the Premier.
01:17:33:05 - 01:17:33:15
Who.
01:17:34:11 - 01:18:12:18
Grant Stevens
Did an excellent job in enabling me to do my job. And I was advised by Nicola Spurrier and Nicola's responsibility was to provide the best advice as it related to managing COVID 19 in the community. And my obligation was to take a broader view in terms of the impact of the restrictions we were putting in place, the likelihood of people complying with those restrictions and how we'd manage noncompliance and, making sure that, yeah, there were there weren't any unintended consequences that we should have foreseen.
01:18:13:22 - 01:18:36:03
Grant Stevens
So by and large, it was an excellent working relationship. I've got nothing but respect for Nicola and and Premier Steven, former premier Steven Marshall, who by the way on being succeeded by Peter Malinauskas. He's been exactly the same in terms of his support. Right, of me as the state coordinator.
01:18:36:03 - 01:18:38:16
Um, but there were.
01:18:38:16 - 01:18:55:06
Grant Stevens
Always occasions when we were going to be debating the merits of a decision and it was done respectfully. We didn't always agree, but uh, those discussions and deliberations positioned me to be able to make some of those difficult decisions. So do you always win?
01:18:55:06 - 01:18:56:16
No, no, no. It was not about winning.
01:18:56:17 - 01:18:57:18
Daniel Franco
On some steering.
01:18:58:01 - 01:19:00:17
Didn't of it.
01:19:02:02 - 01:19:25:03
Grant Stevens
I can't imagine it having been done any better. Had you shifted people in or out. Yeah. Whichever person it was I was I as difficult as some of the decisions were and, you know, appreciating the consequences of those decisions, I felt well supported in terms of the advice from Nicola and other people in SA Health and the support from the Premier.
01:19:25:03 - 01:19:35:18
Grant Stevens
And you know, a lot of the stuff we did was very unpalatable and, you know, notwithstanding the challenges that we were creating, I was still supported.
01:19:36:12 - 01:19:55:04
Daniel Franco
Let me tell you. I was sitting there at home or wherever I was watching you guys on TV thinking, who wouldn't want to be in their position right now? I absolutely empathize with it. Is it unprecedented? It's something that we've never done before, never gone through before. You making things up with the information that you have at hand, that's all you can do.
01:19:55:11 - 01:20:20:01
Daniel Franco
So, you know, kudos to the role and to what you guys did. But you talked before about unforeseen consequences and and the idea of lockdowns and having been worked in in sex crimes, an old me or a child abuse and all that sort of stuff. Did did was that an unforeseen? I think one thing we often heard was that, you know, domestic abuse was on the rise as a result.
01:20:20:02 - 01:20:24:05
Daniel Franco
And all the above is that. Can you squash that fact or not?
01:20:24:10 - 01:20:25:16
That's not what.
01:20:25:16 - 01:20:31:17
Grant Stevens
I can say is in South Australia. I think we had a total of about seven days of lockdown.
01:20:31:17 - 01:20:31:24
Daniel Franco
Yeah.
01:20:32:15 - 01:20:58:16
Grant Stevens
In contrast to almost every other state or territory in Australia where they had weeks or months, Victoria is obviously the outlier. Yeah, it was just massive. Um, so the that that notion that people were more likely to be the victim of domestic violence or sexual abuse in a home environment because people were confined together, I don't think sits in South Australia.
01:20:58:16 - 01:21:24:09
Grant Stevens
I don't think that that can be applied. But we did have the situation where people were being forced to or opting to work from home, which meant we did have situations where people didn't have the same level of freedom to get out of the home environment. So there's a potential that that might have resulted in people being subject to behaviors that they might not ordinarily have have had to tolerate.
01:21:24:24 - 01:21:28:20
Daniel Franco
Um, so how do you decide what's more important in that?
01:21:28:20 - 01:21:42:09
Grant Stevens
Well, there's, um, and that's the challenge now. No one was ever prevented from getting out of their home. They were never prevented from calling police. So these are the things you think well know. We can mitigate.
01:21:42:09 - 01:21:42:14
That.
01:21:42:20 - 01:21:46:08
Daniel Franco
It's not always saying you have to stay there. And even if you're in danger, you stay. Stay put.
01:21:46:08 - 01:21:47:02
That's right. Yeah.
01:21:47:02 - 01:21:56:04
Grant Stevens
And one of the one of the key things we said when we shut our borders, people couldn't come into South Australia. One of the exemptions was if you're escaping domestic, you can come in.
01:21:56:04 - 01:21:56:17
You can come in.
01:21:57:00 - 01:22:24:18
Grant Stevens
So we thought about those things, but you can't you can't eliminate risk. And I'm sure there are people who experienced incidents of domestic abuse as a result of the fact that the COVID circumstances put them with the person committing those offenses more frequently or for extended periods of time. But we didn't see significant changes in the reports of domestic abuse.
01:22:24:18 - 01:22:55:05
Grant Stevens
That doesn't mean it didn't happen. People might not have reported it, but it's it's a really good example of trying to find that balance between addressing COVID, but having an assessment or an understanding of what the possible consequences were. And yeah, shutting down hospitality, knowing that a lot of them are small businesses and, you know, business owners basically being told, you can't run your business, we are cutting off your livelihood, you can't pay your mortgage, you can't you can't retain your staff.
01:22:56:04 - 01:23:11:22
Grant Stevens
You think about the impact on individuals from that point of view or hospitality workers who are there in a casual environment, work environment no longer if they don't have an income. Yeah, food. The federal government did a great thing in supporting that. But imagine the stress from that.
01:23:12:03 - 01:23:18:09
Daniel Franco
I so that was going to be the follow up question on domestic violence is one thing was suicide something else that was on your mind?
01:23:19:00 - 01:23:21:01
Grant Stevens
Uh, well, more broadly, mental.
01:23:21:01 - 01:23:21:06
Daniel Franco
Health.
01:23:21:22 - 01:23:33:18
Grant Stevens
Suicide is one part of that's extreme. Maybe it's an extreme, but there are a lot of people who are probably feeling the adverse effects of decisions that were forced upon them from COVID 19, and it may take years for them to recover.
01:23:33:18 - 01:23:39:18
Daniel Franco
What's a bigger pandemic, looking back in hindsight, mental health pandemic that this COVID caused or that actual.
01:23:40:14 - 01:24:04:08
Grant Stevens
I think is much smarter people than me will do the analysis of the decisions that were made for COVID, how it impacted on the management of COVID, and what the consequential impacts of those as those decisions were on a range of other factors. Um, and it's worth, it should be done. I think there needs to be a, a clear appreciation of how we managed COVID and how it impacted on people more broadly.
01:24:04:15 - 01:24:22:22
Daniel Franco
In case it ever happens again. You're right. We have to look at the statistics and going well, you know, we're actually very lucky here in Australia, especially South Australia. And like from a loss of life point of view, we're very, very lucky compared to some of the other other countries. How early in the sorry.
01:24:22:22 - 01:24:26:02
Grant Stevens
I'm one thing on that too is it's not it's not one or the other.
01:24:26:02 - 01:24:26:19
Yeah. Yeah.
01:24:26:19 - 01:24:30:16
Grant Stevens
You couldn't ignore COVID because that would have had a devastating impact.
01:24:30:16 - 01:24:39:04
Daniel Franco
On the community as RIGGS Absolutely. Yeah. It's interesting. It's never black and white. It's just like the switch button.
01:24:39:04 - 01:24:40:05
It's never black.
01:24:40:05 - 01:25:00:00
Daniel Franco
And white, never turn it off. And on how early in your or how early in the COVID point did you I I'm using this question because I think it's a point where, you know, you as commissioner, you need to keep some stuff to yourself. Right. You can't you know, you have confidentiality that you need to hold on to.
01:25:00:24 - 01:25:09:24
Daniel Franco
How early in the piece did you go home until your wife that you hang on these COVID things actually come in and we're in a bit of trouble?
01:25:09:24 - 01:25:20:05
Grant Stevens
There wasn't a single point in time, but, um. Yeah, I was spent a lot of time on the phone at home. Yeah, she would have heard there were no surprises. Um, but it was.
01:25:21:00 - 01:25:21:10
You know.
01:25:22:01 - 01:26:01:10
Grant Stevens
The probably the turning point in terms of the impact on us as a family and me as, as commissioner and, state coordinator was back in March. I'd gone to the police ball in Penola. I was invited to attend this ball as a charity fundraising event. Yeah. So my wife and I, when we were driving back and I spent most of the time on the trip back on the phone, talking to people from the Department of Premier and Cabinet and the chief executive of say Health about needing to start taking some very deliberate steps to manage COVID 19.
01:26:03:00 - 01:26:21:10
Grant Stevens
And so that was I think that was a Sunday we were driving back over the course of the next week. It became pretty constant. And the very next Sunday is when I declared the major emergency. And that's when that's when things really kicked off and it became yeah. Six, eight, nine, 8 hours a day, seven days a week.
01:26:22:09 - 01:26:27:10
Daniel Franco
What were you hearing in that time and can you share it. What, what were you hearing about COVID at that?
01:26:27:10 - 01:26:27:19
Well.
01:26:28:05 - 01:26:47:22
Grant Stevens
This was at a point where we were we really didn't know what the impact of the virus was going to be. There was no no likelihood at that early stage of a vaccine. So the whole plan was to the perception was that we're all going to get this thing. Yeah. If we all get it at once then we're.
01:26:47:22 - 01:26:48:09
Daniel Franco
In a bit of trouble.
01:26:48:09 - 01:26:48:16
Grant Stevens
We're in.
01:26:49:00 - 01:26:49:07
Trouble.
01:26:49:12 - 01:26:52:09
Daniel Franco
Is it because what we were seeing was happening in Rome?
01:26:52:16 - 01:26:58:05
Grant Stevens
Rome, New York? Yeah. You know, people over the age of 60 being turned away.
01:26:58:07 - 01:26:58:17
Yeah, that's.
01:26:59:04 - 01:27:24:24
Grant Stevens
Scary. They didn't have enough ventilators being sent home to die, mass graves being dug in Central Park. Yeah, these things happen. And people that. But we were being briefed on, you know, estimates in terms of the number of fatalities from COVID 19, the impact on our hospital system, the the scarcity of our ICU resources and ventilators, the consequences of our hospital system being overwhelmed by.
01:27:26:09 - 01:27:26:21
A.
01:27:26:21 - 01:27:48:11
Grant Stevens
Large number of people, presenting all at once needing medical assistance because of COVID, the impact on other people who have other chronic illnesses, not being able to access those. Um, it was a fairly grim picture, and that's why we acted so quickly to try and put steps in place to slow, slow down spread of the virus through our community.
01:27:48:11 - 01:27:54:20
Grant Stevens
We never intended to stop it. We just wanted to slow it down so our system could manage during those intensive periods.
01:27:55:02 - 01:27:58:22
Yeah. Was what was the slogan like. Slow the spread.
01:27:59:04 - 01:28:00:18
Daniel Franco
Slow the spread of the curve.
01:28:00:18 - 01:28:09:09
What was the day we had a curve where it spread the curve or something like that. Yeah. The how did you manage.
01:28:09:09 - 01:28:10:19
Grant Stevens
Having PTSD now talking about.
01:28:10:22 - 01:28:20:11
Daniel Franco
It's not good, is it. And I think that is so true. I didn't when in our previous conversations we said, let's not spend too much time on it. But I think it's such an interesting thing now.
01:28:20:14 - 01:28:21:06
It is interesting.
01:28:21:06 - 01:28:21:23
Daniel Franco
In hindsight.
01:28:21:23 - 01:28:23:01
And you know.
01:28:23:20 - 01:28:46:04
Grant Stevens
In all likelihood I don't think anyone else will ever do what I did as the state coordinator. And there will be a review of the Emergency Management Act, which was the is the act that gave me those powers. And I fully support a review. But I think there is a view that after a certain period of time, it shouldn't sit on one person's shoulders to make those decisions.
01:28:46:04 - 01:28:51:02
Grant Stevens
Yeah, you know, obviously all contribute to that review and share my views then. Yeah.
01:28:51:10 - 01:29:13:02
Daniel Franco
But I think it was a testament to you as a person. I think you are coming influence on the on the TV you really were and and I'm speaking as a civilian looking at and as a business owner, as a father, as a husband, uh, you know, as if someone is part of the community. Whenever Grant Stevens spoke and I'm not his son, it's just as well I spoke up.
01:29:13:02 - 01:29:30:01
Daniel Franco
Yep. I'm like, it's more of it really is about. I remember we come on and it was like us. This is actually something that we're doing and we've made calculated decisions to the best of our ability. You just need to believe that this is to the best of our ability. We're not there's no conspiracy stuff going on here.
01:29:30:01 - 01:29:37:17
Daniel Franco
It's about how do we make sure we keep as many people safe in such a broad context as possible? You could say that was coming through.
01:29:37:17 - 01:29:39:20
Grant Stevens
You don't want to.
01:29:39:20 - 01:29:40:05
Say to that.
01:29:40:10 - 01:29:44:08
Daniel Franco
It's it. You had to. It was brilliant. I think.
01:29:45:06 - 01:29:46:14
Where you.
01:29:46:22 - 01:29:55:08
Daniel Franco
What I am interested in is the leadership aspect of your role and how did you prepare your organization for?
01:29:55:08 - 01:30:22:17
Grant Stevens
Well, we do a lot of a lot of exercise management. And, you know, we have the opportunity to practice our emergency management response through a whole range of different scenarios, including bushfires. You know, we're well-practiced in standing up the state emergency center, pulling in key stakeholders, you know, giving tasks to people that can support us flooding events, severe weather events, statewide blackouts.
01:30:22:17 - 01:30:24:19
Daniel Franco
So you're you're pretty well versed in this.
01:30:24:21 - 01:30:42:12
Grant Stevens
This was different. It was. And I don't think the difference really struck us until we were in the midst of it, that this is far more never before have we introduced statewide restrictions. We might have shut down roads before or, you know, set up an evacuation area for a particular township.
01:30:42:12 - 01:30:43:23
But this is just this.
01:30:44:04 - 01:31:07:05
Grant Stevens
This was completely different. And I don't think we were prepared for what we were going to be required do as a police service. But the general management practices we have in place and the discipline that we apply positioned us to be able to adapt to this emerging event that we hadn't had a lot of experience in so on.
01:31:07:08 - 01:31:16:17
Grant Stevens
Once again, I couldn't be more proud of the organization and the people in it. And it's not just the people who got sent off to do COVID related activities.
01:31:17:10 - 01:31:19:17
It's the it's.
01:31:20:01 - 01:31:39:08
Grant Stevens
Every work group. The organization, regardless of their role, stood up and adapted their work practices so we could maintain the broader level of service to the community. It's it's is something that no matter what happens in the rest of my career and what happened before, the way South Australia police responded to COVID 19 is something I'm incredibly proud of.
01:31:39:21 - 01:31:42:10
Grant Stevens
Made me gave me the ability to do my job.
01:31:43:15 - 01:31:51:15
Daniel Franco
And so it should be you as a leader. Did you put much emphasis on that? Were you thinking about it?
01:31:51:23 - 01:31:54:00
I know in the this is.
01:31:54:12 - 01:32:11:19
Daniel Franco
In the heart of the moment you're not necessarily relying on the thought you you're working on habit and you're working on experience and you're training. Yeah, but was there a conscious effort to say in that moment, I need to be the calming influence in this space? I actually need to play this part?
01:32:12:10 - 01:32:15:21
Um, but I'm not sure I'd.
01:32:16:10 - 01:32:40:24
Grant Stevens
Describe it as a conscious thought, but it was clearly a part of my obligation was to, um, not so much calm the community but deliver, um, the messages in a way that could be clearly understood. And people, people had an appreciation of what we were dealing with and what was required of them and panics never got to serve anyone.
01:32:40:24 - 01:33:25:21
Grant Stevens
And I think, you know, being able to operate in complex or dynamic environments and maintain a level of calm, assist everyone around you, it helps people focus. That sense of obligation in terms of providing leadership was not just outward facing for the community, it was about everyone within scope too, you know, and I put a lot of effort into speaking to as many of my staff as possible, visiting different work areas, visiting those locations that were involved in our COVID response, regular videos to the workforce about what we're doing, why we're doing it, what we need them to do, how we need them to do it, how was really important.
01:33:27:06 - 01:33:33:15
Grant Stevens
And I think we we we benefited from that approach.
01:33:33:15 - 01:33:35:17
Daniel Franco
It must have been an immense amount of pressure.
01:33:36:21 - 01:33:42:11
Grant Stevens
It well, on reflection, yes. But you know, in the thick of it, it's day by.
01:33:42:11 - 01:33:45:03
Day just to do. Yeah. You know, how.
01:33:45:03 - 01:33:47:18
Daniel Franco
Important was the hug from your kids when you got home?
01:33:48:00 - 01:33:52:18
Grant Stevens
Oh, my kids are of an age now where the hugs are few and far between.
01:33:52:22 - 01:33:57:09
Daniel Franco
But even but some. I think the question is more about who did you turn to?
01:33:57:09 - 01:33:59:17
Just to go, how do I be human again?
01:34:00:00 - 01:34:22:12
Grant Stevens
I don't I didn't really I didn't have a problem with that. It was, um, you know, the people I work with closely within SAPOL, a lot of them are friends and you know, I was supported by very competent people who were just as committed as me. And we were in this together. And yet my wife and my kids who are at home there, hugely supportive as well.
01:34:22:19 - 01:34:32:06
Grant Stevens
It's just it's more organic than, you know, a deliberate, deliberate thought about, you know, de-stressing or debriefing or getting that support. It just happened.
01:34:33:03 - 01:34:34:09
Daniel Franco
Has your daughter forgiven you.
01:34:37:06 - 01:34:37:18
For those.
01:34:37:18 - 01:34:42:17
Daniel Franco
For context, the lockdown was done the day before your daughter's wedding. It was something like that.
01:34:42:17 - 01:34:44:08
Grant Stevens
It was a change of numbers.
01:34:44:13 - 01:34:45:00
That's right.
01:34:45:00 - 01:34:50:15
Grant Stevens
We we reduced the numbers that could gather. I think we brought it down to 30. It was.
01:34:50:15 - 01:34:50:24
Just.
01:34:51:06 - 01:34:53:03
Daniel Franco
You just didn't want the extended relatives that.
01:34:54:00 - 01:35:22:14
Grant Stevens
Well, did try and encourage you to just get married at home in the backyard. But above my daughter, we had a wedding scheduled for the 5th of December in 2020 and it was canceled twice and the second occasion we canceled it. I actually hadn't told anyone that the numbers were coming down and I was doing a radio interview and I announced that my daughter's wedding wasn't happening on the 5th of December and my future son in law heard that and rang.
01:35:22:14 - 01:35:24:13
Grant Stevens
My daughter said, Do you realize the wedding's being canceled?
01:35:24:14 - 01:35:25:20
So on.
01:35:25:20 - 01:35:36:11
Grant Stevens
And that was fine. I think I saw the writing on the wall, but as it turned out, numbers came out before the 5th of December and the venue was still available. So wedding happened just as power.
01:35:36:12 - 01:35:37:05
So yeah.
01:35:37:13 - 01:35:46:08
Grant Stevens
A few disappointments, but it happened as we would have hoped it to happen. Yeah. I didn't get to save any money.
01:35:46:08 - 01:35:50:17
Daniel Franco
That's why you were doing it. Wasn't it?
01:35:50:17 - 01:35:55:12
Grant Stevens
And my son had an 18th birthday in in 2020 as well.
01:35:55:15 - 01:35:57:22
Daniel Franco
Okay, so it's happening in the family. Oh.
01:35:58:11 - 01:36:07:03
Grant Stevens
At that point, you could only ten people at home and his plan was for about 110 people. So yeah, that was that was a bullet dodged. I didn't have 110 I don't.
01:36:07:22 - 01:36:15:05
Daniel Franco
Think christening himself on the 18th like clubbing event, you know what I mean? Not other than not on the 18th birthday, you're going to a.
01:36:15:05 - 01:36:17:11
Grant Stevens
Club night nightclubs. I don't think we're operating on that.
01:36:18:10 - 01:36:19:04
Yeah, but yeah.
01:36:19:08 - 01:36:20:22
Daniel Franco
Operating I would have been. Really.
01:36:20:22 - 01:36:21:14
Grant Stevens
He's forgiven me.
01:36:21:20 - 01:36:30:05
Daniel Franco
Yeah, no doubt. Well, whatever. I think I was always thinking about this. You're living in 12, especially the year 12 students going through that 2020, it.
01:36:30:05 - 01:36:30:20
Grant Stevens
Would have been very.
01:36:30:20 - 01:36:31:16
Tough. I yeah.
01:36:31:17 - 01:36:39:06
Daniel Franco
Looking back on that as a as a year of the the what was supposed to be one of their best years of their schooling career.
01:36:39:06 - 01:36:42:03
Yeah, it's been really tough. Yeah. You know.
01:36:43:00 - 01:36:45:02
Grant Stevens
The, the foremost that didn't happen.
01:36:45:05 - 01:36:45:19
Yeah. You know.
01:36:46:06 - 01:36:50:11
Grant Stevens
Just you had to choose between dancing, having alcohol. You couldn't have.
01:36:50:11 - 01:36:50:21
Both.
01:36:50:22 - 01:36:53:00
Grant Stevens
It's a weird times.
01:36:53:05 - 01:37:19:15
Daniel Franco
I, my daughter was starting year one was going to year one. And, you know, typically every morning with my oldest daughter, we would take her into the classroom and talk to the teacher. And you'd be sort of like a great little community with the families and the mums and the dads and all the above. And I think that was one thing that we really missed with my second daughter was we're not really as connected with her friendship group and the parents as what we are with my oldest, who we had the opportunity.
01:37:19:15 - 01:37:21:06
Daniel Franco
So there's a lot of loss there.
01:37:21:06 - 01:37:21:18
That's right.
01:37:21:18 - 01:37:34:17
Grant Stevens
And some of those things are not immediately apparent. And I sort of become you become aware of them over time. Yeah. So we'll be learning about the the impact of COVID. Yeah. For a long time.
01:37:34:17 - 01:37:42:07
Daniel Franco
Yet in hindsight, was everything done the way you would have done it? Like would you would you change what you.
01:37:42:08 - 01:37:42:22
Well, that's.
01:37:42:22 - 01:37:56:04
Grant Stevens
That's a question I've been asked quite a few times coming out of the the tail end of COVID, what would I have done differently? And if you take hindsight off the table, because it's really easy to come up with.
01:37:56:18 - 01:37:58:03
Daniel Franco
Y vision, right? Yeah.
01:37:58:04 - 01:38:28:18
Grant Stevens
It in at the time of making those decisions based on the advice we were getting and the forecasting that we had available to us. I'm comfortable with every decision we made. Hindsight will show us that some of those decisions could have been different, but you deal with what you know at the time you're making those decisions. And, you know, a really good example of that is Pizzagate.
01:38:28:21 - 01:38:56:08
Grant Stevens
You know, we had we had a we had a lockdown because of the information we were provided about how COVID was being transmitted through a what you'd call an incidental contact at a pizza shop. It was the right decision. If that information was accurate and correct. And we had no reason to disbelieve it at the time. We needed to act because there would be there'd been a change in the behavior of the virus that saw so many more people being affected.
01:38:56:08 - 01:39:13:18
Grant Stevens
We needed to slow things down. Hindsight tells us circumstances were different, were different. The lockdown wasn't required that we didn't know that at at the dove, the day of making the decision, we didn't know it was a seven day lockdown. We found out after that two days so became a three day lockdown.
01:39:15:03 - 01:39:20:02
Daniel Franco
The amount conspiracy theories that got thrown around about that pizza shop was unbelievable.
01:39:20:03 - 01:39:33:18
Grant Stevens
It's unfortunate for the for the for the business. Yeah. But, you know, these are the circumstances and there are so many examples of difficult decisions made based on the information we had at our disposal.
01:39:35:03 - 01:39:47:02
Daniel Franco
Conscious TV Time. I'm going to start wrapping up now. I just want to ask one question before we jump into we have some quickfire questions at the end of this podcast. What does the future like for Grant Stevens?
01:39:47:21 - 01:39:51:08
Grant Stevens
That's a really good question. It's a question I'm interested to see the answer to.
01:39:51:24 - 01:39:53:07
Am I?
01:39:53:22 - 01:40:19:24
Grant Stevens
I've never a lot I've never really had a deliberate plan to become the commissioner. I think I've probably said that, yeah. I've never chased any particular rank in the organization. I've, I've loved what I've done and enjoyment probably contributes to doing something well. And when you do something well, opportunities evolve in front of you and you take that step and it leads to something else.
01:40:20:16 - 01:40:27:14
Grant Stevens
So I don't feel like I'm finished as a commissioner, but that's a matter for the, the premier in terms of my contract arrangements.
01:40:27:14 - 01:40:27:21
Yeah.
01:40:28:08 - 01:40:47:19
Grant Stevens
Um, but I'm not looking too far ahead at some point in the relatively near future, my time as Commissioner will come to an end, and I don't know what the next step is, but I'm interested to find out. And I don't have any anxiety about that. So we'll see what happens.
01:40:47:24 - 01:40:49:08
Daniel Franco
Might come as a welcome relief.
01:40:50:00 - 01:40:50:13
Oh, look.
01:40:51:08 - 01:40:52:21
Grant Stevens
I really do enjoy my job. Yeah.
01:40:53:01 - 01:40:53:23
And, and I'll.
01:40:53:24 - 01:40:58:08
Grant Stevens
Miss aspects of it, but I probably won't miss having to have my phone with me.
01:40:58:08 - 01:40:59:13
All the time. Yeah.
01:41:01:01 - 01:41:09:04
Daniel Franco
We'll put a partition ever. I think I want to see you in there for ten more years. So I don't want anyone else in the role. I think the public will probably stand by me on that as well.
01:41:09:04 - 01:41:21:22
Grant Stevens
Well, like I said, that's a matter for the Premier, but I've got to say I've been very well supported by both Steven Marshall and Peter Malinauskas and that certainly makes it easier for me to do my job.
01:41:21:22 - 01:41:45:00
Daniel Franco
I'm trying to get on the show so when he if he does, come on, I'll put in a good word for everyone. This there's some quickfire questions as we round up will be great is here at creating synergy we read a lot of books knowledge and wisdom wisdom is a very core value of our business. Um, so reading is a big part of that, a learning development.
01:41:45:00 - 01:41:47:05
Daniel Franco
What's, what's a book you're reading right now?
01:41:48:09 - 01:41:50:02
Grant Stevens
David The Simple.
01:41:50:02 - 01:41:54:21
Truth. I Yes, good. So far so good. The hook.
01:41:54:21 - 01:42:02:22
Grant Stevens
The hook saying, yeah, I'm about a quarter of the way through. But if they get if I get past the first 30 pages, I tend to finish. I'm a finish as you are. Even if I don't enjoy it, I'll finish it.
01:42:02:22 - 01:42:06:12
Daniel Franco
Yeah. Oh, really? You just have to work through it.
01:42:06:12 - 01:42:06:18
Yeah.
01:42:07:09 - 01:42:21:05
Daniel Franco
I used to be that way I read differently now I actually read this book for knowledge. I think I'm one of the that definitely the younger crew that come through and go I need short impact. And so I used to read the full book, but now it's like, I need that chapter. That's the part that I need.
01:42:21:17 - 01:42:24:05
Grant Stevens
Oh, I suppose with fiction you've got to follow the stories.
01:42:24:23 - 01:42:33:23
Daniel Franco
Well, that's true too. Yeah, no, I'm talking purely nonfiction. What self-development book that you feel stands out. Do you read any self-development books or have you put much effort into?
01:42:34:00 - 01:42:42:18
Grant Stevens
I have in the past, but none really stand out. There's a really small book that I was quite impressed with. Who moved my cheese?
01:42:42:19 - 01:42:43:23
Yeah, that's the.
01:42:43:23 - 01:42:44:09
Daniel Franco
Johnson.
01:42:44:10 - 01:42:44:19
Yeah.
01:42:45:06 - 01:42:46:23
Grant Stevens
Yeah. Very simple.
01:42:46:23 - 01:42:47:03
But.
01:42:47:04 - 01:43:03:00
Grant Stevens
Yeah. Impactful. And there was the seven habits have habits of highly effective people and not the whole book. I didn't get through the entire book, but there was one part that talked about the circle of concern and the circle of influence.
01:43:03:00 - 01:43:03:04
Yeah.
01:43:03:15 - 01:43:07:17
Grant Stevens
And that principle stuck with me in terms of I suppose managing.
01:43:07:17 - 01:43:08:02
Stress.
01:43:08:16 - 01:43:20:19
Grant Stevens
Is don't waste energy on stuff, you can't influence it. It's good to be aware of those things, but put your energies into the area. So only only focus on what you can influence, not what concerns you. If you can't influence.
01:43:20:19 - 01:43:21:17
It was worse.
01:43:21:17 - 01:43:23:23
Daniel Franco
If you had no control over. What are you worried about?
01:43:24:01 - 01:43:27:09
You should be aware. Yeah, it's balance and planning that that.
01:43:27:09 - 01:43:30:15
Grant Stevens
That one element of that book stuck.
01:43:30:15 - 01:43:39:18
Daniel Franco
With me 100%. I love that book. Synergy is one of the seven habits, right? So that's why we kind of use it. What's one lesson that's taking the longest to learn.
01:43:42:22 - 01:43:43:07
And.
01:43:44:23 - 01:43:45:22
Grant Stevens
Don't procrastinate?
01:43:47:12 - 01:43:48:02
It's the.
01:43:48:18 - 01:43:49:19
Daniel Franco
Big procrastinator.
01:43:49:24 - 01:43:53:12
Grant Stevens
I do some of my best work under pressure and you can create that pressure by not.
01:43:53:12 - 01:43:55:19
Not, not getting out. Yeah.
01:43:55:23 - 01:43:58:17
Grant Stevens
Don't put off till tomorrow what you can put off until the day after tomorrow.
01:43:58:22 - 01:44:03:20
So the yeah I.
01:44:03:20 - 01:44:06:09
Grant Stevens
Describe it as procrastination, but I, I don't think.
01:44:06:24 - 01:44:07:05
It.
01:44:07:23 - 01:44:24:24
Grant Stevens
Genuinely is procrastination. I'll, I'll look at something and I won't put it to the side of my desk and I don't necessarily separate it from my thinking. No. So when you do come back to the file, you have a just that subconscious processing I think gives you more capacity to make the right call. Yeah. Those tough things.
01:44:25:13 - 01:44:30:13
Daniel Franco
You generally know gut feel that yeah, yeah, yeah. You sit on it for a few days and then you go, I'm going to go, oh my God. Anyway.
01:44:30:18 - 01:44:55:00
Grant Stevens
And I suppose reflecting on my, but my experience with high school and the way I've sort of been through my policing career is, and I'll say it, I wasn't a very well applied student in high school and if I was talking to people in high school now, and I said this to a group of students, just the other day, don't cut short your opportunities for the future by taking the easy path right now.
01:44:55:01 - 01:45:05:02
Grant Stevens
You know, make sure you find that right balance. Yeah, invest in this opportunity to develop yourself so you've got more opportunities or more choices once you get out of that schooling environment.
01:45:05:14 - 01:45:06:04
I love that.
01:45:06:12 - 01:45:16:11
Daniel Franco
And so that's brilliant. If you can invite three people for dinner, who would they be?
01:45:16:11 - 01:45:32:24
Grant Stevens
Yeah, that's a tough question. Um, actually, I don't know the answer to that question. I've never really turned my mind to it. It wouldn't be Nicola or Steve.
01:45:33:17 - 01:45:40:06
I had a lot to do with it. I was going to throw it out there, but I might.
01:45:41:01 - 01:45:47:11
Grant Stevens
Be a Donald Trump. Oh, well.
01:45:47:22 - 01:45:49:00
Not, not, not.
01:45:49:00 - 01:45:57:18
Grant Stevens
Because I subscribe to his political views or condone any of his behaviors. But I just think it would be a bizarre experience to see that up close.
01:45:58:06 - 01:46:01:23
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:46:02:01 - 01:46:09:03
Daniel Franco
He would be. Yeah. It would be a strange conversation. Just unraveling the thoughts that goes on in that person's head.
01:46:09:10 - 01:46:14:10
Grant Stevens
And I seriously don't subscribe to it. It's just.
01:46:14:10 - 01:46:14:20
I get your.
01:46:14:20 - 01:46:17:11
Grant Stevens
Point. It's a freak show. Yeah. So, yeah, that'll be interesting.
01:46:17:11 - 01:46:34:04
Yeah. Yeah. The other two, um, anyone you look up to the who? I, I can't answer that question. I find that really hard to. Yeah, yeah.
01:46:34:04 - 01:46:37:17
Grant Stevens
On, you know, sort of off the cuff. Um, I'll just be picking names.
01:46:37:17 - 01:46:38:07
And I don't know.
01:46:38:16 - 01:46:39:23
Daniel Franco
Whether they've actually got any, so.
01:46:39:24 - 01:46:41:12
Grant Stevens
I'll come back in a week and I'll let you know. Yeah.
01:46:41:18 - 01:46:41:23
Be right.
01:46:42:00 - 01:46:43:17
Grant Stevens
And Donald Trump probably wouldn't make the final.
01:46:43:18 - 01:46:44:19
Daniel Franco
I wouldn't have thought.
01:46:45:15 - 01:46:49:19
Grant Stevens
I think I see you see enough of him through social media to offend you.
01:46:50:08 - 01:46:58:06
Daniel Franco
I do I do understand what you say, though, like from a human behavior point of view. I just want to understand what is going on in that person's brain.
01:46:58:16 - 01:47:07:23
Grant Stevens
Yeah, I think it speaks volumes about the shift in our society where someone like that gets to a position of such significance as.
01:47:08:02 - 01:47:08:20
It does with.
01:47:08:20 - 01:47:09:12
Grant Stevens
So many followers.
01:47:09:12 - 01:47:16:19
Daniel Franco
Does it make sense that, well, some of the best advice you've ever received, uh.
01:47:18:20 - 01:47:48:16
Grant Stevens
Be honest, be true to yourself and and deal with people with honesty. And don't try to be something you're not. Because most people have a great bullshit detector and they know when they're being snowed. So. And I tried it. I tried to do that in all of my interactions with people in the community, other people within. Sciple Um, people know, and you're not, you know, being genuine and that does more harm than good.
01:47:49:09 - 01:47:55:02
Grant Stevens
And I don't think you can be successful as a senior leader in any field if you aren't genuine.
01:47:55:02 - 01:48:05:05
Daniel Franco
A great if you had a time machine, where would you go back or forward? You had one trip back or forward.
01:48:05:05 - 01:48:08:16
I think I'll go forward. Yeah. Yeah. Uh.
01:48:09:24 - 01:48:24:09
Grant Stevens
Probably not too far. Maybe. Um, I think we're in such an interesting time right now in. In human history. Yeah. You can find out what happened in the past. Yeah, unless you want to live the experience.
01:48:24:09 - 01:48:24:12
Yeah.
01:48:24:18 - 01:48:48:02
Grant Stevens
Why would you go back. Whereas having some ability to see how this current mess is going to unfold. Yeah, I think that would be really interesting. You could look at the challenge just get away from the economy, get away from, you know, the cost of living and energy prices, but start to look at, you know, what's going to be the impact of this green agenda, you know, the shift away from fossil fuels.
01:48:48:11 - 01:49:05:10
Grant Stevens
How is that going to impact on our communities that our society is going to shift? We see more people moving from regional locations into built up urban areas. Yet I just think we're at a point in time where things are really shifting quite significantly.
01:49:06:00 - 01:49:07:11
And maybe.
01:49:08:03 - 01:49:21:24
Grant Stevens
My maybe I should say I would go beyond where I'm probably going to live too, so I can see how things look after that because I'm going to find out eventually. Yeah, in the time that I'm going to be here. Yeah. So take a couple of steps beyond that to see what it looks.
01:49:21:24 - 01:49:24:08
Daniel Franco
Like then you know when you go live to and that's got.
01:49:24:09 - 01:49:24:21
Annoying.
01:49:25:16 - 01:49:28:05
Grant Stevens
Yeah I think we can all Yeah.
01:49:28:09 - 01:49:29:08
All going well let's.
01:49:30:05 - 01:49:31:23
Daniel Franco
Just say 200 days because you know.
01:49:32:04 - 01:49:33:08
Exactly as I've.
01:49:33:08 - 01:49:34:09
Grant Stevens
Got more behind me than I have.
01:49:34:12 - 01:49:41:10
Daniel Franco
That's right. If your house was on fire and, your family, pets, everything was all safe. What's one item you'd run back in and say, My bike.
01:49:41:18 - 01:49:43:18
Your bike? Oh.
01:49:44:18 - 01:49:52:17
Grant Stevens
Uh, Isabella, your beautiful. Um, I should reflect on that, though, because if that's lost in the fire, the insurance company would pay for a new bikes.
01:49:53:07 - 01:49:57:03
It's. If it's insured, probably.
01:49:57:06 - 01:49:58:04
Grant Stevens
It may be my Kindle.
01:49:58:12 - 01:49:59:14
Yeah, yeah, I.
01:49:59:14 - 01:50:00:03
Grant Stevens
Can buy another one.
01:50:00:03 - 01:50:02:03
Daniel Franco
Of those when you're. It's all on your Amazon account so.
01:50:02:04 - 01:50:02:18
Yeah yeah.
01:50:03:01 - 01:50:05:00
Grant Stevens
Yeah. These are the rash decisions you make.
01:50:05:07 - 01:50:13:21
Yeah. No photos, nothing like family heirloom. Is it that they're all digital? Yeah. Yeah, it's right. Great If you had one, I'd.
01:50:13:21 - 01:50:18:14
Grant Stevens
Probably perish in the fire. Because if I look for the box of old photos, I can't remember where they are.
01:50:18:14 - 01:50:27:10
Daniel Franco
So it's in the attic? Yeah. If you had one super hero power, what would it be?
01:50:27:10 - 01:50:28:13
Grant Stevens
I'd have trouble choosing.
01:50:29:01 - 01:50:29:18
Yeah, yeah.
01:50:30:08 - 01:50:31:05
Grant Stevens
Invisibility would be.
01:50:31:05 - 01:50:35:07
Great. Yeah. And creepy that this.
01:50:35:07 - 01:50:38:04
Grant Stevens
Is more about you than it does me. I was thinking about be able to.
01:50:38:09 - 01:50:43:17
Just disappear into the crowd. Things are getting too hot. I'll just. I'll just go invisible.
01:50:44:00 - 01:50:51:04
Daniel Franco
Yeah. Now you're invisible. You're cool. It's one of the. It's just. Yeah, I always throw that in whenever someone says just throw them off.
01:50:51:19 - 01:50:54:15
Grant Stevens
I'm a bit worried about you now I know what you're thinking and it's.
01:50:54:15 - 01:50:57:22
Disgraceful not saying that in front.
01:50:57:22 - 01:51:00:17
Daniel Franco
Of the police, us.
01:51:00:17 - 01:51:01:02
Yeah.
01:51:01:14 - 01:51:05:24
Daniel Franco
Well, it's you now. You have to and I don't care how long we see.
01:51:05:24 - 01:51:07:06
Okay. Sure, sure.
01:51:07:06 - 01:51:09:08
Grant Stevens
You'll cut the stony silence. Yeah.
01:51:09:21 - 01:51:17:03
Daniel Franco
Yeah. You're a father of five. What's your best joke, though?
01:51:17:03 - 01:51:17:14
Grant Stevens
There's probably a.
01:51:17:14 - 01:51:18:09
Couple. Yeah.
01:51:19:11 - 01:51:29:19
Grant Stevens
My go to would be my friend David lost his I.D.. Now he's just Dev.
01:51:29:19 - 01:51:31:17
I love it. And so I actually.
01:51:31:17 - 01:51:33:02
Grant Stevens
Stored my phone.
01:51:33:08 - 01:51:33:17
There.
01:51:34:03 - 01:51:40:09
Daniel Franco
If you got any more, there's going to be one more. Um, do you actually have a friend called Dave?
01:51:40:09 - 01:51:42:13
Dave Yeah, I do. That's hilarious.
01:51:42:21 - 01:51:44:01
Daniel Franco
You've said that to him. A thousand.
01:51:44:01 - 01:51:45:12
Grant Stevens
He loves it. He's just great.
01:51:45:13 - 01:51:47:07
Yeah.
01:51:47:07 - 01:52:21:10
Daniel Franco
Don't worry about going into more jokes. Thank you so much for your time today. It's been an amazing, amazing chat. Thank you for agreeing to come on first and foremost and but kudos to you and the team and everything that you guys have been doing and you have done, especially over the past couple of years. I don't want to discount your career in place just for the past couple of years, but it has been and like I said earlier, it has been really great seeing such a calming influence on the TV and having belief in the person who is the state coordinator and going, actually, I think we've got the right person in that spot.
01:52:21:10 - 01:52:23:13
Daniel Franco
So thank you for all that and thank you for that.
01:52:23:13 - 01:52:51:05
Grant Stevens
But let me finish by saying and I had that profile position for COVID 19, but the people that were working with me and for me right across the organization deserve due credit and really importantly the community of South Australia. When you think about what we have imposed on almost every single person who lives here and, the willingness to play their part made it possible for me to do what I did.
01:52:51:05 - 01:52:56:24
Grant Stevens
So, you know, I don't think that could happen in too many places around the world. I think we should be proud of that as a community, no doubt.
01:52:57:06 - 01:53:19:07
Daniel Franco
And I think we should never discount and I don't think anyone is discounting the team that you had behind the leader is only as good as the team and the people that he saw out he or she is surrounded by. So, yeah, well done to everyone in the organization and the broader community. Thank you very much for your time and continue watching with eagerness how your career unfolds from from here on in.
01:53:19:07 - 01:53:25:08
Daniel Franco
And I look forward to seeing you again in the future. Thank you. Thanks, guys. Take care.