00:00:00:05 - 00:00:22:13
Daniel Franco
My name is Daniel Franco and this is the Creating Synergy podcast, your Business and Leadership Podcast, where we speak to high profile leaders and thinkers about their careers and dig deep by asking the questions we all want the answers to and covering their stories, strategies, leadership lessons, and their secrets to success. Welcome back to the Creating Synergy podcast.

00:00:22:17 - 00:00:45:08
Daniel Franco
Today I am sitting with the one and only Colleen Walton. Thank you for coming back on the show last time we had you. 2020 into law in the heart of COVID. Yes. This is when we were running podcasts out of my house because everything was shut down. So you get a tour of the Franco residence. But thank you for coming back.

00:00:45:09 - 00:01:03:12
Daniel Franco
I think I said to you early this morning that that planted a seed in your you were working with Bay that when we had you on and you had heading up their change management in Australia and I said that planted a seed because now you find yourself working with us.

00:01:03:17 - 00:01:05:11
Kylie Morton
I do. It's really exciting.

00:01:05:12 - 00:01:28:02
Daniel Franco
It is. We're very happy to have you in the team. There's been a lot has happened in the past two years. You've gone through a whole amount of change yourself personally and growth and and decided to come over to synergy. Are you. Let's just a bit of a recap. Where have you come from? For those who may not have heard the original podcast, it was one of our most downloaded podcasts for a long time.

00:01:28:02 - 00:01:30:18
Daniel Franco
Then it's been overtaken now, unfortunately, but sorry.

00:01:30:19 - 00:01:31:14
Kylie Morton
I can work on that.

00:01:33:08 - 00:01:51:09
Daniel Franco
But we talked about the neuroscience of change back then, and we're going to be talking a lot about change again today. You've had some like thought bubbles go off and yeah, you you're like, I want to come on the show. I want to come on the show. We couldn't wait to get you on. So can we just do a bit of a recap?

00:01:51:09 - 00:01:56:14
Daniel Franco
Okay. Who is Kylie? Where have you come from? How did you get to and how come you're so passionate around this change?

00:01:56:23 - 00:02:09:00
Kylie Morton
Well, alright, well, so actually they're called bust bubbles now actually because I had this wonderful smashing together of ideas on, on the bus, on the way into the office. Say so, but.

00:02:09:06 - 00:02:12:11
Daniel Franco
It's the monotone sound of the bus. That's right.

00:02:12:11 - 00:02:39:11
Kylie Morton
Yeah. Okay. So where have I come from? Up to here? Well, I guess I started out my career, you know, back when I was 15 years old, working in retail and working across a huge number of different sort of functions and areas in a supermarket. So I got so many different experiences and I got exposed to so many different people and I absolutely loved the variety.

00:02:39:24 - 00:03:00:17
Kylie Morton
And I think that that's where my I think that's why I love what I do. So much now because the variety is still there. I get to work for so many wonderful organizations and so many great people and so many different projects and challenges and that I think that that's what makes you kind of get up every day and go, Oh gosh, is what's going to happen now.

00:03:00:17 - 00:03:33:03
Kylie Morton
So. So I think that, you know, that's kind of like a, you know, an origin. But what happened over my career is I got really invested in listening to people whinge about their work, you know, and going, oh gosh, this is, you know, this process doesn't work or this feels like it takes too long. And realizing that I had a sort of a skill set in being able to help people work through how they might change that, you know, and take some personal accountability for improving their own work.

00:03:33:18 - 00:04:05:24
Kylie Morton
And that really grew into this sort of passion for making big changes in larger organizations. So my career path took me from, you know, slicing meat in a service deli and making donuts through to, you know, improving supply chain processes in large cosmetics companies and then into defense and pharmaceuticals, all circling around process improvement, business analysis, and then ultimately change management.

00:04:05:24 - 00:04:22:17
Kylie Morton
And I think it was that it was that actual trigger into change management that made my heart sing because up until that point, I had been I trained as a lean Six Sigma Black Belt, and it was very technical and it was all about these wonderful, you know, improvements to processes and the way that we would work. But they just wouldn't stick.

00:04:22:24 - 00:04:32:01
Kylie Morton
You know, it didn't seem to matter how great the idea was or how much sense the improvement would make. Somehow we still had people who were really disgruntled.

00:04:32:05 - 00:04:32:16
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

00:04:32:23 - 00:04:57:06
Kylie Morton
So I was given an opportunity to join BAE Systems Australia and lead the development of their change management capability. And I started off as a single digit change manager and worked through to building a capability of a team that was, I think at its height around 15 change managers, but also its.

00:04:57:06 - 00:04:59:07
Daniel Franco
Own little business in itself. Is it?

00:04:59:08 - 00:05:23:01
Kylie Morton
Yeah. Yeah. And actually it kind of operated a little bit like an internal consultancy, which is really nice because we had this we had this team, this kind of home, you know, home base where we can all come in and and and find like minded practitioners. But then, you know, we were all out in the business working with different projects and different challenges.

00:05:23:01 - 00:05:30:07
Kylie Morton
And, and what that meant was the collaboration was really exciting because we're able to bring back all those experiences and those ideas and.

00:05:31:08 - 00:05:50:16
Daniel Franco
So how did you like can I just touch on the big thing? You go from 0 to 15 people. What was that base or in you to grow that team like why and the importance of change within and I think there's that's a pretty forward thinking approach.

00:05:51:00 - 00:06:17:17
Kylie Morton
Yeah. You know I actually think that it was one of those classic kind of tipping point types of scenarios because I, you know, worked worked kind of diligently for a good couple of years, you know, you know, the best of all on my own. And then, you know, another change manager that had joined the team. And really the approach that we took was just to kind of get in there and try to make a bit of a difference, make a project a little bit better than it would have been if they didn't have a change management support.

00:06:17:17 - 00:06:52:05
Kylie Morton
And when I talk about change management support, what I really mean is somebody to help think through the complexity of what they were trying to do, to really simplify that and to bring in the consideration of different perspectives that people might have about what was trying to be achieved and create a process that, you know, enabled people to work through that and to make sense of that in in a way that increased not just adoption, which is ultimately the objective of change management, but also increased the experience, the positive experience for people.

00:06:52:17 - 00:07:22:08
Kylie Morton
So what actually happened was, you know, we had one small project that was an office move and, you know, it impacted 200 staff. It wasn't a big initiative. It wasn't a big move. But we we did these small things like handwritten notes when people arrived at the new office and lots of preparation and lots of thought put into, okay, well, what would the experience of somebody moving from their old office to this office really look like?

00:07:22:08 - 00:07:42:12
Kylie Morton
If we were to make it as great as possible and we put the thought into that, it was a good experience. And then those 200 people, you know, probably not all of them, but many of them then shared how great it was. And all of a sudden that one project became a little bit of a beacon for, okay, well, this is what happens when you do this well.

00:07:42:24 - 00:07:58:00
Kylie Morton
And I think that, you know, on reflection, I think that was the tipping point because from there we started getting lots and lots more engagement from the business and an interest in in what change management could do and achieve. And that's kind of when the team really started to grow from there. Yeah.

00:07:58:14 - 00:08:31:08
Daniel Franco
And so I mean kudos for that helped me to manage and lead a team and grow the capability Australia wide because it wasn't just here in South Australia, it was it was Australia wide team. So well done. We're very happy to have poached you and that's the right word. We didn't really it wasn't it wasn't so much of approach, but we became quite close in like our relationship and working relationship and we both in the same world were synergy like you obviously known for their ability in in change.

00:08:32:10 - 00:08:55:18
Daniel Franco
We couldn't quite wait to get you on board and help you come across and help us grow our capability and our strength. And you've just gone from strength to strength and almost at a thought leader where you are at a thought leader position now, aren't you, where you you know, your voice is sought after and people are always keen to learn a little bit more about yourself and the work that you're doing in the change space.

00:08:56:13 - 00:09:21:08
Daniel Franco
When we were when we were preparing for this podcast, you were you were talking to me about some of the myths that are really happening in the world. And you have a real unapologetic approach to change and change management. Can you unpack that for us a little bit? Use like I'm pretty strong that I want to bust some myths here on this on this show.

00:09:21:08 - 00:09:22:16
Daniel Franco
So I'd love for you to.

00:09:22:17 - 00:09:55:06
Kylie Morton
Ask this the answer this question for me links to why I'm here as well. That's energy. So, you know, I have an an internal gratitude to be systems and the people who supported me and the team that we had there, you know, I, I amassed a huge range of experiences that make me who I am today. But there is something really lovely about working for an organization whose core capability is what you're passionate about.

00:09:55:14 - 00:10:15:05
Kylie Morton
So, you know, BHP was an engineering organization and so therefore that project just project management and engineering, that's their passion where it's energy IQ, we're passionate about great change. So I get to come here and, you know, play around with all these ideas and thoughts that I've had for a really long time and have the backing behind that.

00:10:15:05 - 00:10:46:08
Kylie Morton
So thank you so much actually for bringing me and allowing me to have that opportunity. And so some of the things that I recognized was I think I may I've always been passionate about improving work, and I've been I've been sort of dogmatic about the value that people play in that process. But I haven't always, I guess, had the space to explore that as much as I would like.

00:10:46:08 - 00:10:57:08
Kylie Morton
And the unapologetic beat for me now comes from being in a place where I believe that. I believe that the way we're managing change is making us unhappy.

00:10:57:17 - 00:11:08:05
Daniel Franco
Ooh, I said to Mike, drop Mike. Yeah, okay. As in not we. As in synergy. Like as in organizations in, in the world. Yeah.

00:11:08:10 - 00:11:36:20
Kylie Morton
Yeah. And so one of the things that's really wonderful is when I think about, you know, being in a, being in the change space, probably over the last ten years, you can really see an increase in the uptake of change management in organization as more and more organizations recognize how important it is. There's better frameworks around it. It's growing right now, you know, Google Change Management, and you can do so much more than you did five years ago, there's no doubt about that.

00:11:37:11 - 00:11:57:17
Kylie Morton
And so what it's doing is it's improving outcomes for organizations because we are a little better at it now. We know how important it is to plan and to communicate effectively and to make sure people have all the, you know, training and learning pathways that they need to to adopt new skills. But it just doesn't seem to be improve living happiness at work.

00:11:57:17 - 00:12:25:18
Kylie Morton
People are still very disgruntled about change. We talk about things like change, fatigue and resistance and risk. And, you know, I think it's really sad how many conversations we have with leaders who are doing really exciting things for their organizations, who come at it from a point of, well, this is going to be really hard. This is going to be really difficult.

00:12:25:23 - 00:12:44:16
Kylie Morton
You know, I need to prepare, you know, all that sort of you can feel the shift in the conversation. They're excited about what they want to do, but actually getting it from, you know, an idea to an implemented solution or a change in mindset or culture feels like it's going to be a real hard slog. And I think that's a really I think that's a really sad thing.

00:12:44:22 - 00:13:14:13
Kylie Morton
You know, we don't improve businesses just for the sake of it. We improve them because we want to make work better and we want to improve outcomes for people and for our customers and our communities. And so so I think that what has happened is that as we have created more awareness and more structure around the importance of change management, we've unfortunately started to view it as a tool to prevent terrible things for happening rather than a tool for driving.

00:13:14:13 - 00:13:15:03
Kylie Morton
Great thing.

00:13:16:13 - 00:13:49:18
Daniel Franco
Makes sense. Yeah. I want to ask you around if it's made you like you, you're saying it's part of the eco system that makes people unhappy. It's not just the change that's made. Like that's coupled with leadership capability or lack of capability to manage the change. It's coupled with projects which are that meaningful. Is it the whole kit caboodle or is it you think fundamentally it's the know the process in the way we're managing change is causing this to be.

00:13:49:18 - 00:13:52:00
Kylie Morton
Yeah I think it's the process.

00:13:52:00 - 00:13:52:06
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

00:13:52:06 - 00:14:15:09
Kylie Morton
Well I think because I think our leaders and so I guess again another apologetic thing yeah you know I have a deep appreciation for like humanity and how amazing we are and what we can achieve. And you know, what I see is when we we go and talk to people about, you know, changes they want to make in their organization or leaders who are struggling to get their people on board.

00:14:17:04 - 00:14:59:24
Kylie Morton
It's almost like we now expect there to be trouble. We expect this to be a hard thing. And so I don't think it's an ecosystem. I don't think it's individual capability. I think what it is, is that we now have change management as a structured approach in our organizations that is fundamentally now skewed towards looking for negativity. And what we know from gratitude science, you know, positive psychology is that if you continue to look for negative things, if you continue to look for the things that are scary and difficult, then you will establish a pattern in your brain that associates scary and difficult things.

00:14:59:24 - 00:15:06:06
Kylie Morton
Yeah, with change. And so what I'm saying is, I think is the way we approach it, I think we've lost sight that.

00:15:06:11 - 00:15:22:18
Daniel Franco
Yes, you're talking from a meta point of view. Yeah. Yeah. So can we call out some of those thought processes? Like what are those negative things that people are looking for? So this so people listening in can go, oh shit. Yeah, that is exactly what we do. Yeah. And that's the, that is the negative thought process. So you go through.

00:15:22:19 - 00:15:27:22
Kylie Morton
Okay. So I think the first and most obvious one is resistance.

00:15:28:03 - 00:15:28:13
Daniel Franco
Okay.

00:15:28:15 - 00:15:28:22
Kylie Morton
Okay.

00:15:28:23 - 00:15:34:02
Daniel Franco
So, so we're about to embark on a change. Yeah. Already. Not everyone's going to be resistant to the fake news.

00:15:34:04 - 00:15:52:14
Kylie Morton
Yeah. Not they're not going to be like resistance to change is this thing that has bothered me for a really long time and it's, you know, it's all over change management language and frameworks is that, you know, we have to we have to look for the resistance and we have to plan to manager and to mitigate it. You know, we're going to have to coach people through that process.

00:15:52:14 - 00:16:15:09
Kylie Morton
And there'll be people who are on the bus and people who are off the bus. Yeah, it feels like combat, right? And and so, you know, I, I think that when we think about implementing a change, if the first thing we think of is how people are going to react negatively, how they're going to resist, then you're gearing up for a fight, right?

00:16:15:24 - 00:16:37:21
Kylie Morton
Alternatively, if we were to reframe that and say, okay, I want to do this thing in my organization or I have to lead this change for my people inside an organization. And if we were to think about it less from a perspective of how will people resist and even just a very subtle shift and start talking about how will they react?

00:16:37:21 - 00:16:44:23
Kylie Morton
Hmm. You think differently straight away because resistance is a negative and negative reaction.

00:16:44:23 - 00:16:45:07
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

00:16:45:17 - 00:16:49:06
Kylie Morton
But reactions can also be positive. Yeah. So they may very well resist.

00:16:49:06 - 00:16:54:04
Daniel Franco
You start down the rabbit hole. Yeah, you start already at the foot of the rabbit hole. That is negative.

00:16:54:04 - 00:17:17:05
Kylie Morton
Exactly. Yeah. So, so I'm saying, you know, language has power. And one of the words that we use an awful lot in change management is resistance. And I think that we should flip that. I think we should be talking about reactions. Yeah. And the spectrum of reactions and not just why people or how people would react, because we actually know why they react.

00:17:17:05 - 00:17:40:16
Kylie Morton
There's a, you know, a biology behind it which I talked about in the last one. Yeah. That was on is biology behind why people react to change were designed to react to change or else we would never have evolved to the point where we are now. It's an important process, but. But reacting to change is something that doesn't necessarily have to result in a positive outcome for a leader or for an individual.

00:17:40:22 - 00:17:53:01
Kylie Morton
It can just be a process that somebody goes through in order to help them make sense of a change that will work for them in an organization. So I want to I want to flip it like I don't want to talk about resistance anymore. I want to talk about reactions.

00:17:53:12 - 00:18:15:10
Daniel Franco
So if we talk about the resistance piece for a sec, because in my head I'm talking to myself and I start off with that so I can plan on how to not lie. Oh, I can plan on what I'm going to do so they aren't resistant to change. So you're just saying let's actually flip that on its head and just go straight into how are we going to get people on board with this?

00:18:15:10 - 00:18:16:07
Daniel Franco
Is that kind of the.

00:18:16:08 - 00:18:34:03
Kylie Morton
Yeah, so what I'm saying is if you think about the science behind that, that approach, you are associating negative beauty and negative outcomes with change immediately. Yeah, right. That's your, that's the pathway that you're building because that's what you're looking for. Yeah.

00:18:34:03 - 00:18:37:12
Daniel Franco
It's the language you're using with it. Well and you're the person came in. Yeah.

00:18:37:13 - 00:18:57:01
Kylie Morton
Yeah. Like if I start thinking about how this is going to, how people will react rather than how they resist, then that opens you up to a range of different reactions, positive or negative. It starts getting you thinking about how you might leverage more positive reactions to help people who care. So I'm not saying don't consider that there may be negative.

00:18:57:01 - 00:19:17:13
Daniel Franco
Yeah, okay. I think you're right. Yeah, I think for me, the light bulb just went off in my head. Then when you said you were actually with the first process of managing the resistance, we are only thinking negatively of how we can get people on board. The thought is how can we actually take the people from good to great that are already thinking positively?

00:19:17:13 - 00:19:18:21
Daniel Franco
Okay, yeah, it makes sense.

00:19:19:12 - 00:19:22:14
Kylie Morton
So I think it's a resistance. It's one of those areas.

00:19:22:21 - 00:19:25:14
Daniel Franco
So going back to the those negative thought.

00:19:25:14 - 00:19:42:18
Kylie Morton
Yeah, yes. The other area that I think I see this most in is also in looking for impact of change. So like when I say the word impact to you, what are some of the words that you might give me some synonyms, the.

00:19:43:00 - 00:19:53:08
Daniel Franco
Effect that it has on me, the impact, meaning the potential revenue. I'm thinking from a business perspective, impact from a revenue perspective, impact from people, engagement.

00:19:54:00 - 00:19:57:24
Kylie Morton
One back a little bit further. Okay. What does the word impact think as impact?

00:19:57:24 - 00:20:07:08
Daniel Franco
Oh, I think of explosion. Explosion. Yeah, an asteroid sort of impact. Yeah. I mean, all the above, right. Yeah. It's a negative thing as well.

00:20:07:08 - 00:20:35:04
Kylie Morton
Yeah, it is. And so if, if, if words have power and there's a quote that says something like, you know, speech, speech has power, something about words starting as sound and ending as deeds. I'll find what the quote is. Yeah, really good one. But if we're using words that elicit a link towards a negative thing, once again, resistance.

00:20:35:07 - 00:21:08:06
Kylie Morton
Yeah, negative impact is negative. It's like if you Google search, it comes up with Collision and Smash and yeah, all those types of things. Yeah. But what we need to be doing is looking not at impact but at significance, you know, how significant is this change for this organization or for this team or for this individual? And again, if I asked you to think about significance, you'll you'll think about different things, you'll start to think about meaning and you start to think about, you know, extent and you stuff purpose and.

00:21:08:06 - 00:21:30:09
Kylie Morton
Yes, exactly. Yeah. So I'm not saying we don't think about impact because we do need to think about particularly if it's going to impact negatively on somebody. We do need to think about it. What I'm saying is I want to start retraining our change brains. Yeah, I want a positive change practice that starts positive fast because then we start to build a pathway in our brains that says change is good.

00:21:30:12 - 00:21:32:08
Kylie Morton
Like we can do this. You know.

00:21:32:10 - 00:21:49:14
Daniel Franco
If I'm sitting there and I'm starting a project and I ask myself, what is the significance of this project? Is is that binary? It's in the sense that it's got a big significance and high significance within this organization or it's a small significance. Is that is that the only.

00:21:49:23 - 00:21:53:10
Kylie Morton
I guess the answer that question lies in what makes something significant.

00:21:53:17 - 00:21:54:03
Daniel Franco
Okay.

00:21:54:15 - 00:22:11:22
Kylie Morton
So for me, something that significant has significant meaning. I think means a lot to me. I think it's important, it's worthy of my attention. So the scale of significance will be different for me than it would be for you.

00:22:11:23 - 00:22:12:14
Daniel Franco
Yeah. Okay.

00:22:12:19 - 00:22:13:08
Kylie Morton
And I think.

00:22:13:08 - 00:22:16:07
Daniel Franco
That's and the depending on who's in that project and which stakeholders are.

00:22:16:16 - 00:22:35:04
Kylie Morton
Exactly. Yeah. And so it's sort of, you know, it links to that stakeholder assessment piece. Yeah. You know, we're not just looking for how, how or what opportunities are there for the stakeholder to grumble about this. We're actually now starting to explore. Okay, well, what makes this important for that stakeholder? What's meaningful to them?

00:22:35:07 - 00:22:42:07
Daniel Franco
Yeah. Okay. So it's the significance of all the aspects within the project, not just the significance of the project within the organization.

00:22:42:07 - 00:23:07:05
Kylie Morton
Yeah. Yeah. So, so if you think of those two very small examples impact resistance, they're one of the big features of a change management process and planning and where using negativity first that negativity bias is in our change practice already. Yeah. And that's what I want it like that's the bit that's my boss babble.

00:23:07:10 - 00:23:07:22
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

00:23:07:22 - 00:23:20:01
Kylie Morton
It's, it's not about ignoring where there's risk because you need to understand where it is so that you can plan for it effectively. But it's just about not making that the first place we go.

00:23:20:04 - 00:23:26:22
Daniel Franco
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I want to challenge you a little bit for us. This is where you you.

00:23:26:22 - 00:23:27:17
Kylie Morton
Know, we don't do that.

00:23:28:07 - 00:23:51:21
Daniel Franco
Well, I mean, like where I'm going is like many would argue that change management has a really positive impact on their business. And, you know, going from not doing change to to implementing change management has had some significant from bottom lines. Point of view projects are being delivered. The journey is not as bad and now you're coming out and saying people are unhappy.

00:23:51:21 - 00:23:55:20
Daniel Franco
We're using negative words. Is there a contradiction in that?

00:23:56:06 - 00:24:02:07
Kylie Morton
No, I think that there's an acknowledgment that it definitely has improved. Yeah. Okay. Okay.

00:24:02:09 - 00:24:04:18
Daniel Franco
So, I mean, you're here you are an advocate for change, right?

00:24:05:04 - 00:24:29:18
Kylie Morton
Yeah. And if I think about, you know, projects that I've worked on that have had no change management versus projects now that do have it, outcomes are absolutely improved. But what I'm not seeing is the type of improvement that you would expect. You know, you would expect that if we are applying structure change management to our projects, that we would see better outcomes for people because that's what change management is to keep percentage process.

00:24:30:04 - 00:24:42:03
Kylie Morton
And and I'm not seeing that what I am seeing is people who are still unhappy in workplaces. And I know that there's a, you know, there's multi factors around that. Yeah. But fundamentally that comes down to their experience at work.

00:24:42:03 - 00:24:42:13
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

00:24:42:17 - 00:24:47:13
Kylie Morton
And if most organizations are changing things in their businesses right now.

00:24:47:13 - 00:24:48:12
Daniel Franco
Everyone's changing.

00:24:48:12 - 00:24:49:09
Kylie Morton
Exactly as.

00:24:49:09 - 00:24:52:19
Daniel Franco
Why we're flat out, you know. So that's right.

00:24:53:01 - 00:25:15:19
Kylie Morton
So, you know, you'd be sort of remiss to go, oh, well, you know, change management as it as the way we do it in organizations is not having an impact on that sort of, you know, employee engagement. It does have an impact. People are disengaged. They are unhappy. I think there was a recent study that showed that, you know, 30% of people are unhappy at work and are feeling burnt out.

00:25:15:19 - 00:25:40:21
Kylie Morton
Yeah, we have leaders all the time coming to us saying, you know, change, there's too much change and we're tired, we're fatigued. You know, change fatigue is another thing that just really gets to me because we're designed to change. Yeah, we're good at it. We're really good at it. And Kofod COVID is an absolutely wonderful example of how good we are when when we need to change.

00:25:41:16 - 00:26:07:03
Daniel Franco
We remember that. Do you remember that survey that came out in COVID on LinkedIn? Where was what changed? What that sparked the digital transformation in your company? Was it your CIO, CTO, CIO, COVID? And yeah, I think COVID 19 was yeah, yeah, yeah. So we're talking about myth busting. You know, you said you want to come and bust the myths and you just said we're not improving in change management.

00:26:07:03 - 00:26:21:03
Daniel Franco
We're a change management company where we work with businesses, complex change, and taking them through that journey, enabling the change, managing to change all the above. There's a company that was established back in 2001, I think.

00:26:21:09 - 00:26:27:06
Kylie Morton
Percaya Yeah, I think they're a little older than that. Yeah, but they but I think that the framework.

00:26:27:07 - 00:26:27:21
Daniel Franco
The framework.

00:26:28:02 - 00:26:29:02
Kylie Morton
It became much more so it's.

00:26:29:02 - 00:26:51:04
Daniel Franco
Been around for a while. Yeah. And you're saying we've not improved because there's this myth that like we see all the time. Yeah. And we're not bagging Percy at all. I don't want to do that. But there's this myth that you need a person to person accreditation to be a change manager. And now you're saying that you are not seeing improvement.

00:26:51:04 - 00:26:59:08
Daniel Franco
And I like the person. I have a pretty good monopoly on the market. Is there something is there a link in that? What are you seeing? Well.

00:26:59:23 - 00:27:42:09
Kylie Morton
Okay, so let me clarify. Yeah, I'm not I am saying I'm not saying that I'm not seeing an improvement in change management. Okay. So we so frameworks like person have brought into organization organizations have structured approach to going from idea to implementation and improving the way that we do that. Yeah. So that absolutely has occurred. Yeah. What I'm saying though is that if we were if we were managing change in a way that was creating good experiences for all people, then we would also be seeing change leaders and change enablers having great experiences as well.

00:27:42:09 - 00:28:18:11
Kylie Morton
But we're not. What we're seeing is change managers who are really burnt out. Yeah. And, and beaten around in organization and we're seeing project managers who are fatigued and we're seeing change leaders who are fatigued and we're seeing people who have great ideas not able to get them through to implementation. So I think what I'm saying is change management has improved some of the outcomes, but it's not enough because we're not seeing improvements in engagement and we're not seeing improvements in happiness at work and we're not seeing all of those things that I think could be attributed to better experiences of change in organizations if all roles were having better experience.

00:28:18:11 - 00:28:18:20
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

00:28:19:17 - 00:28:45:01
Kylie Morton
So, so that. So what I would like to see is, you know, we've almost gone down the same path with change management that I think we may have gone down with project management. So we've become too rigid, we've become too structured. Now we've got this cookie cutter, you know, you know, start here, finish there type of approach that, you know, I know that there are seasoned practitioners who who, you know, move within and around that.

00:28:45:01 - 00:29:19:11
Kylie Morton
Right. So I'm not saying that everybody is just, you know, mindlessly following a process. Yeah. But there are lots of organizations who are doing that. Yep. And it is not improving outcomes. What I want to see is a positive change practice that allows us to untangle complexity in a way that helps people make sense of change rather than having it kind of forced upon them and and creates a great experience for all of the people who are involved in it, not just the end users.

00:29:19:16 - 00:29:42:21
Daniel Franco
And the making sense part is the part that kind of like just jumped out at me. Then when you were speaking, I'm trying to figure out why it jumped out. I mean, I think we we really when we work with our clients and we take them on a journey, I think the big part of our approach is to help the leaders make sense of the change.

00:29:43:00 - 00:29:55:02
Daniel Franco
You've often used that in a lot of your talks and and your writing and all the above. Can you touch on the sense making pace and why that is important for ladies to think about that?

00:29:55:03 - 00:30:26:21
Kylie Morton
Yeah. Okay. So just reflecting on, you know, fatigued change leaders, if we consider that one of the contributing factors to leaders feeling like change is overwhelming for them, I think a large part of that is because we've confused what their role is in leading change. So we talk about change leaders. And actually what I think we've tried to do is turn them into cheerleaders.

00:30:27:06 - 00:31:01:14
Kylie Morton
So we're asking them now to, you know, really get behind the change and and get everyone excited about the change. And and I just I don't think that's actually their job. And I think that's why we have so much kind of apathy and and and fatigue in that area. If leaders were asked not to be a cheerleader of change, which even in itself, like just the language that you use, it feels like a lot of work, has a lot of energy behind that is especially if you're, you know, you don't necessarily feel that excited about this particular change.

00:31:01:20 - 00:31:24:01
Kylie Morton
That's a big ask. But if I was to say actually know your role as a leader is not to get excited about this change and convince everybody how good it is. Your role is to help the people who report to you, the people that you lead to make sense of that change for themselves, to help them understand the significance of it for themselves.

00:31:24:01 - 00:31:41:03
Kylie Morton
Because as you know, as we said, what's significant for me might be less significant for you or more different. Yeah, but to help them understand the significance for themselves and then ultimately to find a place where they can either support, support that change or make a decision not to support that change, which is always an option. Yeah, but yeah.

00:31:41:20 - 00:32:01:20
Kylie Morton
But I think flipping the role and saying, no, actually your job, your job is not to get too excited about this. Your job is just to help your people find a way where they can understand what this means for them. Yeah, I think that that that's where that is. So much of helping change leadership frameworks and skills that are based on that skill set of sense making.

00:32:01:20 - 00:32:28:12
Kylie Morton
So, you know, how do I how do I take my people through a process, facilitate a process for them that enables them to make sense of that? And and that really looks like creating opportunities or space for people to react, to have that initial reaction to change, which will happen and, and understanding what those types of reactions might actually look like.

00:32:29:12 - 00:32:49:17
Kylie Morton
You need to have a deep knowledge of, of how you as a leader react to change if you're going to be able to do that and and also pay attention to your people and how they will likely react to change in order for you to create an appropriate amount of space for it to happen. So there's a there's a there's a knowledge base there.

00:32:49:18 - 00:33:02:08
Kylie Morton
So, you know, leaders should should invest a little time, has to take a long time. Yeah, a little time in understanding how do human beings react to change. Yeah. What's the response and what does that look like and what is it likely to look like for my people?

00:33:02:11 - 00:33:02:20
Daniel Franco
Mm.

00:33:03:12 - 00:33:33:09
Kylie Morton
And then, and then there's kind of, you know, there's other parts to that. So once you've created that space for the initial reaction, then that to, to other parts which is your role as a leader is to make the information that's available about this change meaningful for your people because you're going to get like generic corporate spin from Yeah, yeah, the project team or the communications team that doesn't that doesn't often resonate with individual teams.

00:33:33:09 - 00:33:55:13
Kylie Morton
It doesn't hit the meaning for them because, you know, it doesn't link to their particular part in the puzzle or, you know, their purpose as a team or to their team culture. So translating those messages in a way that's meaningful is probably the first thing that ladies need to be able to do. Yeah. And then and then the second part is enabling an exchange.

00:33:55:13 - 00:34:14:13
Kylie Morton
So what we know is that change is actually a social process. I don't adopt change often because one person said it's a good idea. I'm not going to take my leader's word for it, even if I have a deep level of respect for that person. Yeah. What I'm going to do is I'm going to go and talk to everyone.

00:34:15:07 - 00:34:41:05
Kylie Morton
I'm going to go and talk to all of my team members. I'm going to see what they think and I'm going to use that information to make my own decisions. So so a leader, their role is actually not to convince the individual. The role of a leader is to enable good, strong team relationships that mean that people can go and talk to others in a safe space and get those perspectives and then use those perspectives to make their own decision.

00:34:41:19 - 00:35:02:20
Kylie Morton
So all of a sudden, in two key areas where, you know, often we're asking leaders to get out there and rah rah change, I'm saying don't do that. I'm saying read the information that's available and make it meaningful for your team to translate it. And the only way you can do that is if you know your team really well.

00:35:02:21 - 00:35:04:16
Kylie Morton
Yeah. So you need leadership.

00:35:04:16 - 00:35:05:13
Daniel Franco
Skills coming to.

00:35:05:13 - 00:35:27:13
Kylie Morton
You actually. And the second thing that you need to do is to enable appropriate exchange of information between your own team members. So your role is to create good team environments, create good team relationships, make sure that they can support each other, make sure that there's appropriate connection, opportunity, trust. Yeah, right. So it takes the spotlight off of a leader.

00:35:27:17 - 00:35:28:01
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

00:35:28:08 - 00:35:48:05
Kylie Morton
It's not all about the leader. Employee relationship. It's about the leader's role to create the conditions for people to change, you know, and then the the other sort of two pieces is all around. Well, if I want, if I want my people to see that this is something that's that's good for our organization, then how can I role model that?

00:35:48:13 - 00:36:06:00
Kylie Morton
So if I'm if I'm grumbling about it, if I'm reading the corporate spending going, look, I don't really know about this, etc., etc., then obviously my people are going to pick up on that. So before you embark on any form of leadership related to a change, there's some soul searching to do around How am I going to commit to this?

00:36:06:08 - 00:36:33:09
Kylie Morton
What does it mean for me? Yeah. So the sense making pace is not just for the for the people, also for yourself as a leader. So the role modeling is really important and that's, you know, holding the mirror up and really looking at, well, you're doing that is probably the first step there. And then the last thing really is just to keep people moving through that process, just keep repeating and keep creating the opportunities and keep unlocking the barriers.

00:36:34:09 - 00:37:01:14
Kylie Morton
Listening to you people, you know, creating opportunities for dialog rather than monologue, you know, I think that's what we've a little bit wrong actually, is that we communicate outwards, but that's not what's needed for change. For change to be successful, we have to create a social process where when leaders are actually responsible for facilitating that, and if you take that as your role, rather than being a cheerleader of change, then it flips.

00:37:01:24 - 00:37:20:14
Kylie Morton
It does the same. Like it's the same as I'm talking about language. Like it flips the responsibility, the type of responsibility I have. I don't need to put myself out there so much. I don't need to invest so much outward energy. What I need is to invest in inward and I need to invest in opportunities for my people.

00:37:20:15 - 00:37:42:24
Daniel Franco
Training. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I want to just touch on the role of a leader within all this and there's there's probably this there's a two pronged approach to this question, right? So we can go either way. But I want to speak on the sense my making stuff. So one of the myths around change management is it's digital, right?

00:37:42:24 - 00:38:05:16
Daniel Franco
Like there's this the digital aspect of it, change management, the project space and people can make sense of that quite easily by putting in a change. It's digital. That's an easy sense. Making what we know to be true is the change aspect is organizational is and so that the toughest parts to make sense of change is within the organization and decisions that are made.

00:38:05:20 - 00:38:23:16
Daniel Franco
The strategy aligning it to the strategy where a leader sits there. Because actually I can't make sense of this. I actually don't agree with it. What's the role of the leader then when that when they like really struggling to make sense of it, how do they then depict it to this is a probably a more of a leadership question.

00:38:24:17 - 00:38:46:11
Daniel Franco
WILEY While leading change, how do you how do you support and deliver on a change that the executive team or whoever it is have said this is what we're doing. This is where we're going and this is what I expect you to deliver. That isn't going to be a good outcome for your team and isn't going to be a good outcome for the community.

00:38:46:11 - 00:39:00:16
Kylie Morton
Well, that's a really tough question. I think. I think there are very few changes that organizations make which represent that scenario.

00:39:00:16 - 00:39:20:17
Daniel Franco
I know it's probably a minority, but yeah, maybe I went a bit extreme in saying like it's not working for me. Well, I think what I'm saying is how do I as a leader, work with my team, create a culture of change, create a situation where like, I'm not going to be the cheerleader, but I'm going to allow you the space.

00:39:20:17 - 00:39:24:12
Daniel Franco
Yeah. When we all actually don't really agree with what they're doing.

00:39:25:17 - 00:39:35:13
Kylie Morton
Okay. So if so, if you if you're in a space where you don't agree with the decisions that have been made.

00:39:35:16 - 00:39:36:13
Daniel Franco
Yes, it.

00:39:36:13 - 00:39:40:23
Kylie Morton
Is likely because you don't understand the context behind that decision.

00:39:40:24 - 00:39:41:08
Daniel Franco
Okay.

00:39:41:15 - 00:39:55:21
Kylie Morton
Okay. So I there's I believe there's a personal accountability here. If you find yourself in a position where you go, this makes no sense to me. I don't get it. Don't sit there and feel like a victim.

00:39:55:21 - 00:39:56:20
Daniel Franco
And grumble about, yeah.

00:39:56:20 - 00:40:01:10
Kylie Morton
Go find out why. Go ask those questions that you, you know, that you.

00:40:01:10 - 00:40:02:21
Daniel Franco
Manage to change up almost.

00:40:03:01 - 00:40:19:15
Kylie Morton
Exactly. And so a lot of leaders will find themselves in a situation where they'll say, okay, I've been told by doing this and there people will react to that and go, Not sure about that. I feel like that's going to be a bad idea. This could happen and that could happen because don't forget, we have a negativity bias towards change, right?

00:40:19:15 - 00:40:42:16
Kylie Morton
Yeah. So so we're already preprogramed not to go. Okay, this could work because we're programed to go. This this probably won't work, right? So that happens. The leader feels overwhelmed. The answer there is to go, okay, let me take all those concerns to someone who can give me those answers. Let me go ask people maybe have just ten people, but don't sit there and go, I don't have the answers to that.

00:40:42:24 - 00:40:45:03
Kylie Morton
Sorry. Yeah. And to take.

00:40:45:03 - 00:40:45:11
Daniel Franco
Account of.

00:40:45:14 - 00:41:07:08
Kylie Morton
Yeah. Yeah. So and you may still find that you don't get the answers you want. Let's all be frank. We've all worked in organizations where, you know, decisions have been made that we don't understand or that do not make sense to us. Even when we found out all the context behind it. Then there's a personal decision about whether or not you're willing to support that.

00:41:07:14 - 00:41:14:11
Kylie Morton
Yeah, but I like I said, I would deeply challenge that. There are many circumstances where if you ask the right questions.

00:41:14:11 - 00:41:14:19
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

00:41:15:03 - 00:41:22:22
Kylie Morton
That you wouldn't uncover the reason behind the change and the meaning behind it. And and therefore start to understand how it could benefit.

00:41:22:22 - 00:41:30:24
Daniel Franco
Yeah, I think there's the word sense. Making means you're going to deep dove into something. Yeah you can. Since making is not surface level so well.

00:41:30:24 - 00:41:38:01
Kylie Morton
And so one of the, one of the barriers to sense making is, is culture. We have a feeling weird about asking questions.

00:41:38:01 - 00:41:38:21
Daniel Franco
Yeah, true.

00:41:39:01 - 00:41:57:18
Kylie Morton
You know, so there's a skill set there to develop. How do I ask questions about a change that is, you know, that's in a way that is constructive and not combative? Yeah. You know, rather than saying, I don't understand that it makes no sense to me, you can ask. I'm struggling to understand the reason behind this. Can you tell me more?

00:41:57:24 - 00:42:14:14
Kylie Morton
Can you tell me how you landed at this decision? Yeah. Asking those types of questions and building a skill set to constructively ask questions about these things that we don't understand will actually help us in the long run. But for some reason we just shy away from it. We think that, you know, it's not going to be responded well to.

00:42:14:24 - 00:42:26:12
Kylie Morton
But I have very rarely found myself in a situation where if I've asked a question that's been thoughtful and well constructed, that I haven't got an answer that gave me perspective.

00:42:26:12 - 00:42:48:10
Daniel Franco
Yeah, yeah. I love you in your whole sense, making like I'm and this is a curious question in the whole sense making aspect, the idea of sense, making is to deep dove and break things down into smaller components. So I can understand that you're a big believer of systems thinking. Is that what you're talking about when you talk about that?

00:42:48:10 - 00:42:51:14
Kylie Morton
Yeah, they're very similar. Basically the same.

00:42:51:14 - 00:42:52:03
Daniel Franco
Thing. Okay.

00:42:52:23 - 00:42:59:19
Kylie Morton
In order to make sense of something, you usually need a skill set in systems thinking, okay.

00:42:59:19 - 00:43:04:11
Daniel Franco
Yeah. And so you believe systems thinking is fundamental. Yeah. I just hope.

00:43:04:11 - 00:43:05:11
Kylie Morton
Yeah, yeah. I think.

00:43:05:12 - 00:43:06:15
Daniel Franco
Is. Can you talk to us about that?

00:43:06:15 - 00:43:07:01
Kylie Morton
Yeah, I can.

00:43:07:04 - 00:43:11:09
Daniel Franco
And start off firstly with what is systems thinking for those who might not understand. Okay.

00:43:11:18 - 00:43:33:17
Kylie Morton
So I'm not a systems thinking expert. I cannot give you like a proper definition. There are lots of different systems, thinking frameworks and approaches that are out there that you can go and Google and learn heaps about systems thinking. But for me, systems thinking is actually the way in which we think about a situation and we gain understanding of it, the whole thing.

00:43:34:01 - 00:43:41:20
Kylie Morton
So it's about understanding the complexity in a situation. That's what systems thinking is.

00:43:41:21 - 00:43:47:12
Daniel Franco
So can you give us an example of how you would systems think about, I don't know, a recipe or something like is that the.

00:43:47:18 - 00:43:51:24
Kylie Morton
Oh, okay. So let's systems think a recipe. Okay. What are we going to cook.

00:43:52:11 - 00:43:53:19
Daniel Franco
On a plate of pasta?

00:43:53:19 - 00:43:56:16
Kylie Morton
I played pasta. Okay. All right. So we want to cook a plate of.

00:43:57:10 - 00:44:02:22
Daniel Franco
Hungry and we're doing this over lunch, which is a nightmare. All right, all right. Let's give it it. Let's give it a try.

00:44:03:14 - 00:44:05:06
Kylie Morton
I haven't done this. Let's. Let's try this.

00:44:05:06 - 00:44:08:12
Daniel Franco
Okay, well, do you have a better example? Let's give it a crack. All right, let's.

00:44:08:17 - 00:44:24:23
Kylie Morton
See if it works. So. All right, so we want to cook a plate of pasta. So you come to me and say, Kiley, your challenge for today is to cook a pair of pasta. The first thing I'm going to do is. Is go, okay, well, what kind of pasta? My cooking. Hmm. Am I cooking spaghetti? Am I cooking lasagna?

00:44:25:04 - 00:44:26:12
Kylie Morton
Because it very different.

00:44:26:12 - 00:44:26:22
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

00:44:27:15 - 00:44:28:18
Kylie Morton
And if I have.

00:44:28:18 - 00:44:29:06
Daniel Franco
A preference.

00:44:29:07 - 00:44:30:01
Kylie Morton
You know which one?

00:44:30:11 - 00:44:34:19
Daniel Franco
I don't know. Now, I think I do. I'm a spaghetti boy. Spaghetti lasagna is good, too.

00:44:36:01 - 00:44:37:03
Kylie Morton
What kind of sauce on my own?

00:44:37:03 - 00:44:39:20
Daniel Franco
I don't know. I'm just hungry. Anyway, I keep going. All right.

00:44:41:00 - 00:44:45:21
Kylie Morton
What kind of sauce am I going to make with this pasta? Yeah, you know, with the spaghetti. Because now I've decided to narrowed it down.

00:44:45:21 - 00:44:47:16
Daniel Franco
Yeah. Red sauce watchers, red sauce.

00:44:47:16 - 00:44:58:24
Kylie Morton
White sauce. So I'm clear that Dan has asked me to cook spaghetti with red sauce. Okay. Okay. He has not asked me to make lasagna, so that means I don't need to worry about making béchamel.

00:44:59:08 - 00:44:59:16
Daniel Franco
Okay.

00:44:59:17 - 00:45:04:11
Kylie Morton
Okay. Yeah. So. So what I'm doing there is looking at the boundaries of what you've asked me to do. Okay, okay.

00:45:04:11 - 00:45:05:13
Daniel Franco
Beautiful.

00:45:05:13 - 00:45:21:17
Kylie Morton
The next thing is, I'm going to go. Okay, well, but where am I going to cook it? Like, am I cooking it in a kitchen? I'm cooking in your house or my cooking at my house? Because if I'm cooking at your house, you've got different like a whole different set up to me. And I'll, I'll probably take a lot longer because I have to find everything.

00:45:22:11 - 00:45:24:01
Kylie Morton
Am I cooking for lunch or for dinner?

00:45:24:07 - 00:45:27:18
Daniel Franco
Because that's going it's a different type of pasta. Yeah, it's a different amount as well.

00:45:27:18 - 00:45:28:15
Kylie Morton
Different amount of pasta.

00:45:28:18 - 00:45:29:24
Daniel Franco
Does it go with one, does it not?

00:45:30:00 - 00:45:48:24
Kylie Morton
Yeah. And also, you know that that means that I have to think about or how much time do I have to prepare. Okay. So what I'm looking at is the context of cooking pasta and then the next thing is, okay, well, if I cook this pasta, if I cook this spaghetti with red sauce in Dan's house for dinner.

00:45:49:19 - 00:46:13:20
Kylie Morton
Okay. What's the impact of that? The impact is I've got plenty of time to go out shopping for the ingredients because I'm not cooking it until dinner time. So that means that I don't have to get panicked about trying to make sure I have everything all prepped and ready before lunch. It also means I have to drive to your house, and I live on the opposite side of town, so I have to factor that in to my day.

00:46:13:20 - 00:46:17:17
Kylie Morton
Yeah. It also means I'm likely to get better wine because I think you have a better.

00:46:17:19 - 00:46:22:02
Daniel Franco
Option than I do.

00:46:22:02 - 00:46:34:23
Kylie Morton
But it also means and this is the next part that I have to consider the perspectives, the audience, you are likely to be a little bit more discerning about the quality of your spaghetti?

00:46:34:24 - 00:46:35:13
Daniel Franco
I think I am.

00:46:35:13 - 00:46:37:01
Kylie Morton
But then, like my kids.

00:46:37:01 - 00:46:41:06
Daniel Franco
I absolutely will be correct. So spending quality stuff.

00:46:42:11 - 00:46:48:18
Kylie Morton
So you might, you know, react differently, right. To me cooking this pasta than if I was I've never.

00:46:48:18 - 00:46:55:20
Daniel Franco
Thought my kids I've never thought that some. Yeah, you're right. Someone's viewpoint is perspective, isn't it? Yeah.

00:46:55:21 - 00:47:10:24
Kylie Morton
Yeah. So so the system's thinking approach, right. What I just did was I just used systems thinking very high level to think about the task of cooking pasta. And so you've given me a very, you know.

00:47:11:22 - 00:47:17:00
Daniel Franco
Generic term. Yeah. So how would that apply to a change management pace in within a visit.

00:47:17:01 - 00:47:45:00
Kylie Morton
Yeah, that's right. So a change managers, that's actually what they're doing. Yeah. They're applying that same kind of systems thinking framework to the change you're asking them to support. They're thinking through, okay, well what are you changing and what are you not changing? And, and what's the context in which you are making that change? How are people how are people likely to view that change because of that, like the perspectives, you know, as a result of how they might be impacted by that change?

00:47:45:00 - 00:47:59:05
Kylie Morton
Notice of use the word impact. Yeah, I think we should start using significance. Yeah, actually, yeah. I'm so so what we're doing is we're thinking through all of that and often that's invisible work change manager, which is an unfortunate thing because it's so valuable, you know, that.

00:47:59:09 - 00:48:16:04
Daniel Franco
It's the most impact. It's the front end of change. Yeah. It's like so often when we go and work with clients, we get called halfway through the project when that is supposed to that system thinking pace up front is supposed to have already been done. Yeah. And then we've got to go and backtrack and then almost.

00:48:16:09 - 00:48:22:22
Kylie Morton
Well and what a tragedy that often we don't get the opportunity to backtrack. Yeah, we get told to just keep going, keep going and we've.

00:48:22:22 - 00:48:24:11
Daniel Franco
Got no time. We've got to keep that. Yeah.

00:48:24:13 - 00:48:28:15
Kylie Morton
And we're missing so much of the information that we need to do that task.

00:48:28:19 - 00:48:32:06
Daniel Franco
So change should be thought about right up front without doubt.

00:48:32:06 - 00:49:00:03
Kylie Morton
And an A and you're, you know, if you had systems thinking capability in your organization across all of the roles that enable and lead change, then that thinking can be practice almost like subconsciously. I think that way and I don't even know I'm doing it. Yeah, it's just part of how I go about planning for a change. So imagine now if your project managers had that same thinking process and your, you know, your, your leaders had that same process.

00:49:00:09 - 00:49:14:20
Kylie Morton
So when you ask me that question a little bit earlier about I'm a leader and I've got this change, it doesn't make sense to me when I apply systems thinking it might go find out what it is and what it is and and the context of the decision that's been made and, and the impact it's likely to have.

00:49:14:20 - 00:49:18:10
Kylie Morton
And, and the way people think about it, go ask those questions.

00:49:18:10 - 00:49:39:15
Daniel Franco
So I'm going to elevate the role of change in this here like this. What I'm hearing is, in fact, like, if the change part is supposed to be done up front and we've got to have the systems thinking approach upfront, then effectively the person who's managing the change or leading the change or pondering on the chair whatever word you want to use at that, enabling the change pace right up front.

00:49:39:15 - 00:50:00:01
Daniel Franco
Yeah, they're almost selecting the project manager, isn't it? So one of the myths of change is that the project manager selects the change manager and then this supports the change manager, supports the project. But what I'm hearing is actually, yes, the change person's the first person on the role. They're the one that is actually doing all the research and understanding what is that boundary, what is the context.

00:50:00:01 - 00:50:05:02
Daniel Franco
Let's put the right project manager on this project. Is that correct or am I off the mark?

00:50:05:02 - 00:50:26:09
Kylie Morton
I think you I think you're partially on the mark. Okay. Okay. I think actually what could be really helpful is to think about change in two parts. There's there's the process of enabling change, which is where we do all of that systems thinking based work. Yep. And then there's the process of managing change related activities, both of which are highly valuable and needed.

00:50:26:16 - 00:50:42:23
Kylie Morton
But I think what we have done is we have we have placed the value of change management in the managing change related activity side of things, where we see execution phases. And you know, I said, you know, my change manager is only as good as the change management plan that they've written that I'm going to go put in a drawer.

00:50:43:14 - 00:50:44:15
Daniel Franco
Yeah, right. Yeah.

00:50:44:19 - 00:51:07:11
Kylie Morton
Or the training plan or the, you know, the, the comms plan. That is that isn't the value. The value is in the work that was done up front to understand what you're trying to achieve and set it up for the best amount of success to create great experiences for people and to develop plans that are true to that, you know.

00:51:07:11 - 00:51:24:13
Kylie Morton
And so the plans and the activities that we then go about executing upon that don't even necessarily need to be done by a change manager. They can be done by learning development staff and they can be done by your communications staff and they can be done by, you know, the people that that have to adopt that change.

00:51:24:13 - 00:51:25:07
Daniel Franco
Yeah. Okay.

00:51:25:07 - 00:51:51:18
Kylie Morton
But I think we've forgotten. I think we've I think we've misplaced the role of a change manager. The change manager. I think the most amount of value they can bring is to help you as an organization make sense of change and gather all of the insights that you need to set yourself up for success. Yeah, and all of the great change managers that I've worked with and I've worked with some incredible change managers, that's where they that's where you see them light up too.

00:51:51:21 - 00:51:56:17
Kylie Morton
They get really excited about doing that because they know that that's where all of the richness is and that's where.

00:51:56:19 - 00:51:57:14
Daniel Franco
It's the problem solver.

00:51:57:14 - 00:51:59:01
Kylie Morton
Correct? Yeah. Yeah.

00:52:00:03 - 00:52:29:01
Daniel Franco
You can hear the passion, like coming through your voice, which is really endearing in that you are so passionate about. It almost sounds like you want to create a movement for this. Like, Yeah, it sounds like you're on this path to change the viewpoint on the way change is done in these organizations. I, I want to just sort of touch on, on that movement and how do we get out of the world of where change is viewed upon negatively?

00:52:29:01 - 00:52:34:13
Daniel Franco
Like how does how do we move forward? How do we get people thinking this is what we need?

00:52:34:23 - 00:53:13:15
Kylie Morton
Okay. I think I think what needs to happen first and foremost is we do need to create awareness and recognition of where the value really is. And it's just one of those unfortunate things that, you know, we place value in, things we can hold back. And so if we were to you know, start talking inside of our organizations about the value of information and insights, that's actually far more important to us, the process by which we gather that and the decisions that we make by using that information, that's what's valuable.

00:53:13:15 - 00:53:22:12
Kylie Morton
Then we start to shift away from, I don't care, I just want to change plan because if I have a change plan, then I can tick a box and I'm successful.

00:53:22:12 - 00:53:25:12
Daniel Franco
So linear type thinking exactly from that.

00:53:25:16 - 00:53:51:18
Kylie Morton
And it's funny because when you look at, you know, different kind of surveys into, you know, where organizations see challenge, their biggest challenges are in untangling complexity and the biggest challenges are in creating leaders who are able to engage with their people and to, you know, help support them through change. The challenges are in adapting to changing conditions, you know, and to being able to do that quickly.

00:53:51:18 - 00:54:13:20
Kylie Morton
And the good thing about systems thinking as an approach for change is that it enables you if you do it again, it's brain training. If you do it often enough, if you think through that process often enough, then you start doing it subconsciously and you start doing it more quickly and start making better decisions. So I think the way to create the movement is, is for organizations.

00:54:13:20 - 00:54:28:05
Kylie Morton
And this is the thing about this. This approach may not be for every organization I'm talking about creating positive change practices that value upfront efforts. Yeah, right. Not every organization is going to be open to that.

00:54:28:14 - 00:54:30:00
Daniel Franco
Because they're very reactive. Is that.

00:54:30:00 - 00:54:54:12
Kylie Morton
Right? Exactly. But I think that the you know, like all movements, they start with early adopters. Yeah, I think this this happens when organizations who can already see that the way they're doing things is not working right now and that they want to try something different and that they want their people to have better experiences and they want to have better cultures and they want to start creating capability to change.

00:54:54:24 - 00:55:01:04
Kylie Morton
I think that those organizations need to put their hand up and give us a call. Yeah. And, and that's how we start creating movement.

00:55:01:17 - 00:55:27:16
Daniel Franco
Well, so the the this movement, though, are we going to hit a brick wall when? We think about how change has been poorly done in the past. There's almost like the post-traumatic stress element to this, isn't it? Like you go in and you there's a layer that says, we're about to embark on change and you get the roles, you get, the complaints you get.

00:55:27:16 - 00:55:31:11
Daniel Franco
That's never going to work. You get all these things that pop up instantly.

00:55:31:12 - 00:55:31:19
Kylie Morton
Yeah.

00:55:32:08 - 00:55:49:12
Daniel Franco
Right. How do we overcome that brick wall hurdle within this checklist movement? How do we as leadership team within organizations or a synergy like you, whoever it is that's leading this movement, push through that post-traumatic stress almost as well.

00:55:49:12 - 00:56:13:16
Kylie Morton
So there's a there's a couple of different things that come to mind. Yeah. The first one I read this study recently that was talking about where negative and positive memories are stored in our brain. And what they found is that they're stored in two completely different places. So if I think about something that's happened to me negative a negative thing that's happened to me in the past, you know, an area of my brain will light up.

00:56:13:21 - 00:56:39:08
Kylie Morton
And if I think about something that is positive that's happened to me in the past, then a different area will light up. What they have found is that if you trigger a negative memory and then at the right time trigger a positive memory, then the effect of that positive memory diminishes how bright the negative memory shines permanently. Yeah.

00:56:39:09 - 00:57:02:00
Kylie Morton
Neutralizes it. Yeah, exactly. Makes it less of an yeah. And so my hypothesis it is just a hypothesis I think, but I've seen it happen. So you know, I think there's something here which is that if you create an opportunity for almost like corporate therapy for people to go, you know what, the way you did that last time was really terrible and I didn't like it.

00:57:02:05 - 00:57:20:18
Kylie Morton
You know, you didn't consider all of the factors. And, you know, I want to make sure that that doesn't happen again. And then and then we create an opportunity to say, okay, about what was good about it. What did we do that did work? Yeah. You know, how can we make sure that we do more of that and that we also mitigate and improve the things that we didn't get right last time?

00:57:21:09 - 00:57:54:10
Kylie Morton
If you create even just that opportunity in your own team, it doesn't have to be organizational. Yeah, but just in your own team, then you will begin the shift in people because you're going to diminish the impact of those negative thoughts, negative memory from last time, and you're going to start to shift mindsets to a positive place. So this positive change practice starts to happen when leaders create an opportunity for their people to have a have a bit of event, then keep them moving towards, okay, well what do we do next?

00:57:54:10 - 00:58:18:09
Kylie Morton
Yeah, how do we do this better? And, and so I think that that's that's kind of one thing that we can do. I think the other thing is just acknowledging that it kind of takes a bit of time to build trust and being really transparent about that. So organizations, I think that are ready to do change differently need to actually tell people that that's what they're doing.

00:58:18:09 - 00:58:35:21
Kylie Morton
Yeah. And say, you know, we, we know that we may not have done this well in the past and we're sorry for that. Yeah, but we're committing, you know, that again, this, you know, personally commit, we're committing to doing it differently and. We're going to show you what that's going to look like and we'll build your trust over time.

00:58:36:00 - 00:58:53:04
Daniel Franco
And be realistic. I think as I'm listening to that, it's not black and white. You don't say we did a bad last time. Therefore this time will be good. Yeah, this time will be better, better. The next time will be better again. And it's this iteration pace. It's, you know, you don't turn the ship around overnight. It takes a few, you know, so.

00:58:53:13 - 00:59:10:08
Kylie Morton
Well, sorry. I just back to that point, you know the example that back with the office move and you know that's that's one of the great tactics is that don't do this on big things yeah just do it better on small things. And if they're not small things, they'll build up eventually too. A better experience overall.

00:59:10:12 - 00:59:28:07
Daniel Franco
Isn't that amazing how that just ties into with everything in life? I mean, the book Atomic Habits is written on the back of doing starting with small things. Get up in the morning, start with three push ups. Yeah. Followed by three schools. Yeah. You know what I mean? And then you build that habit. Absolutely. And then all of a sudden you're running a marathon.

00:59:28:07 - 00:59:31:07
Daniel Franco
Like it's just this building up of the process.

00:59:31:07 - 01:00:03:04
Kylie Morton
And I think that's what I'm trying to do here is where amassing a wealth of knowledge about how to improve our health and wellbeing outside of work. Yeah, we're not applying that necessarily to our change practices. What we're doing is where we we're just, you know, creating a framework and a bunch of tools and, and then having people in our organizations who change managers who are highly skilled and highly passionate and not giving them the space to do their jobs really well.

01:00:03:04 - 01:00:06:17
Kylie Morton
Yeah. You know, that's what I think there's a huge opportunity there.

01:00:08:13 - 01:00:11:09
Daniel Franco
This can almost sound utopian, right?

01:00:11:09 - 01:00:11:19
Kylie Morton
You know.

01:00:12:05 - 01:00:41:07
Daniel Franco
Where you and I just fix the mindset guys like that's almost the the attitude and and I don't mean to rubbish what you're saying but there's going to be some organizations where this just won't work. What's the scenario then like where where leadership is probably not at its greatest shifting mindset is going to be tough. There's some people who have been around for 40 years, you know, they're like the way things have been done in the past, what happens in that space?

01:00:41:07 - 01:00:55:16
Kylie Morton
All right. This is I once had someone who said to me that there is no shame in continuing to find a place where you fit. And I think that that's where I'm at with this.

01:00:55:17 - 01:00:57:15
Daniel Franco
Okay.

01:00:57:15 - 01:01:23:07
Kylie Morton
I believe that if we create more positive practices in our approach to change, that we will create better outcomes. So, you know, science and there's experience and there's also just this, you know, just faith. I just this will work if we do it right. So I get it. There's a utopian kind of view here, but I don't care.

01:01:23:16 - 01:01:26:00
Kylie Morton
I think that's the thing. I don't care. I'm unapologetic about it.

01:01:26:03 - 01:01:27:24
Daniel Franco
Because start a movement unless you're thinking.

01:01:28:00 - 01:01:53:13
Kylie Morton
No. And again, like, I'm not trying to create utopia, I'm just trying to create better outcomes. Yeah. And what I know is that, you know, doing the same thing we've always done isn't going to do that. Yeah. So what harm is there? I mean, I guess I ask you, you know, those organizations who might go, I'm not sure about that, but what harm is there in doing it a little differently and seeing what happens?

01:01:53:16 - 01:02:09:00
Kylie Morton
Because because what I'm not saying is we're not going to plan negative reactions. I'm not saying we're not going to make sure that we consider all of the risks. I'm not saying that we're not going to make sure that we've considered impact. I'm not I'm not saying any of those things. What I am saying is let's approach it differently.

01:02:09:02 - 01:02:20:13
Kylie Morton
Let's create a muscle memory that associates associates planning for change with positivity rather than negativity. Just see what happens. Maybe it's an experiment. It's not.

01:02:20:13 - 01:02:23:04
Daniel Franco
Is there a lack of control that comes with it, though, you know?

01:02:23:15 - 01:02:25:02
Kylie Morton
Yeah. But isn't there a lack of control?

01:02:25:02 - 01:02:26:16
Daniel Franco
Yeah, no, but I think it is at the point.

01:02:26:16 - 01:02:27:08
Kylie Morton
Yeah, it is.

01:02:27:15 - 01:02:38:11
Daniel Franco
It's the point of why this will be difficult is because there's some people that just won't be able to relinquish the control that like to have on a project or they like to have an a program where they like to have a change.

01:02:38:21 - 01:03:00:03
Kylie Morton
And the reality is I never had it to start with, right? There's always this messy middle, you know, change, never linear, you know what? All we ever really know is where we are now and where we want to be. The stuff that happens in the middle cannot be planned. And, you know, that's one of the biggest fallacies, isn't it, that like you can you can set a plan and follow a plan like it never, ever happened some way.

01:03:00:06 - 01:03:28:20
Kylie Morton
But what you can do is you can give people ways of thinking that sets them up for success when things get messy so that they can make decisions more quickly. So, yes, you have to kind of relinquish control, but if you have created capability in the areas that allow people to move through chaos and come out the other side with still, you know, still aligned to the original intentions then.

01:03:29:01 - 01:03:30:22
Kylie Morton
And isn't that isn't that what you want.

01:03:31:06 - 01:03:56:22
Daniel Franco
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, let's say we were these organizations who have said, right, I'm going to give this opportunity. I'm going to think about change more positively. And then they start to iterate those changes within the organization. What are some of those iterations? What are some of the small things that they can work on first that you would think almost like low hanging fruit, this is a good place to start.

01:03:56:22 - 01:04:00:00
Daniel Franco
Just get this started and then come back for round two.

01:04:00:04 - 01:04:09:10
Kylie Morton
Yeah. Okay. I think I think like I said, first place for me is to start thinking about not resistance, but reaction.

01:04:09:10 - 01:04:09:20
Daniel Franco
Okay.

01:04:09:21 - 01:04:32:22
Kylie Morton
Okay, yeah. Do that first because if you're thinking about how people might react, then you're opening yourself up to a broader spectrum of opportunity. And some of this work that we're doing is around understanding, like change personas. Like people react in different ways because they feel differently about their particular professional practice, or they've got a different mindset or different experiences.

01:04:32:22 - 01:04:52:24
Kylie Morton
You can use all of that in service of change if you understand it. So I think first thing is to start thinking about the people who are involved in change and understanding their reactions and the motivations behind those reactions and thinking about how we could use them in service. So that doesn't I know that's not like a, you know, that's not a his this template.

01:04:53:09 - 01:04:56:05
Daniel Franco
I think maybe I'm being to you.

01:04:56:12 - 01:04:58:05
Kylie Morton
Maybe I need to maybe I need to get.

01:04:58:05 - 01:05:22:03
Daniel Franco
You. Oh, absolutely. Well, yeah, you know me. I'm a yeah, it's strange thinking just. But what does good change look like then? So let's say we've implemented this, we're positive, we're thinking we're feeling good about where we're going and we've just delivered what is a good change project? What does it look like? What does it feel like? What are people experiencing when they when it change is delivered very well?

01:05:22:03 - 01:05:47:19
Kylie Morton
When change is delivered very well, they've had an opportunity to turn confusion into clarity. Right. So if it would be probably silly to think that, you know, we were able to create clarity straight up, but in the circumstances where we haven't that we've created opportunity for them to turn that confusion into clarity. I know what this is. I know.

01:05:47:19 - 01:06:23:15
Kylie Morton
I know what was behind it. I understand how it's likely to change the way I work and and how I need to think differently. So I've had opportunity to understand the change for me as an individual. And the reason why I've had that opportunity is because my leader has created the right channels for me to ask questions and for me to interact with peers and other people who are involved so that I can get the information that I need and what that means is that I feel like I'm part of this.

01:06:24:04 - 01:06:43:00
Kylie Morton
You know, I don't feel like this is happening to me. I feel like this is a process that I'm part of. So I've engaged with it. And when I've when I've raised concerns, I've not been met with, just get on with it. I've been met with. Oh, that's interesting. I hadn't thought about it like that. Let me go talk to somebody and see what they might think.

01:06:43:12 - 01:06:57:02
Kylie Morton
So genuine interest in my perspectives related to how this change might affect me or how it might be rolled out. So I feel considered and I feel included.

01:06:57:02 - 01:07:03:17
Daniel Franco
That gives you the sense, warm sense of fuzzies, isn't it? Like this change is moving forward and everyone is considered.

01:07:03:18 - 01:07:22:03
Kylie Morton
Yeah. And if you think about times in the past where, you know, you've made a decision in your personal life that you, you might not think is the best decision. Like say this, how your wife decided, you know, you were going to do this thing. And I'm not really sure the best outcome for that is where you've had an opportunity to raise your concerns.

01:07:22:22 - 01:07:33:03
Kylie Morton
And even if the decision stands you, you're less likely to be grumbly about that because you've had the opportunity. All right, cool. Yeah, we've talked to three.

01:07:33:04 - 01:07:33:20
Daniel Franco
I've been heard.

01:07:33:24 - 01:07:59:24
Kylie Morton
You've been heard. So an opportunity to be heard and then an opportunity to be part of the process in which we move from here, you know, here to next it. When it comes to the actual kind of management of change related activities, it feels like it's open. It doesn't. It's not. We will dogmatically follow this plan to the detriment of anything and everything around us.

01:07:59:24 - 01:08:12:04
Kylie Morton
As you know, things happen and change. It feels like the the plan changed because it needed to. And I understood why and I might have even been part of instigating that. And so again, I'm included.

01:08:12:05 - 01:08:12:12
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

01:08:13:21 - 01:08:38:05
Kylie Morton
It feels like all the different aspects have been considered and at the end when this new thing is implemented, it feels like it wasn't. It wasn't some mad. RUSH To shove something in to some you know, arbitrary deadline it feels like it was a thought through process even if it wasn't a great outcome for me. And I think that's our problem.

01:08:38:05 - 01:08:57:18
Kylie Morton
Like we don't again, change leading versus cheerleading. It doesn't have to be about being excited and positive about change. It just means being positive about how we approach the thinking and the planning behind it and making sure that we're creating opportunity for people to be part of it. Yeah, yeah.

01:08:58:10 - 01:09:23:19
Daniel Franco
It's really interesting because like I've been thinking about change for a long time now. Obviously we run a business that specializes in it and I've never thought about it when you said it's being open to the movement of it and the Bruce Lee or, you know, be like water is the is the is the exactly. It's the it's the element of successful change is not just about the outcome.

01:09:24:00 - 01:09:48:24
Daniel Franco
It's about the journey. It's about how we move along the process. It's how we were able to change and pivot, you know, using the words of today in a way that is fun. Yeah, it's good if we have to. If that's going to give the business and the community and our clients and our people the best outcome, then that's fine.

01:09:49:07 - 01:10:02:16
Daniel Franco
Let's make that change. And when ladies have that thought process and change makers have that thought process, the resistance just sort of falls away, doesn't it? Because everyone's just working together to get the outcome?

01:10:02:17 - 01:10:21:12
Kylie Morton
Yeah, I think some of the worst sort of change experiences I've been part of is where, you know, a plan has been set and then we're all working towards that plan, even though like we might know that it's not achievable. And you can count on ten fingers and toes the number of projects that I've been part of where you've had that experience.

01:10:21:12 - 01:10:40:15
Kylie Morton
What's so deeply frustrating about it is that it it feels like you're not heard. Hang on, this isn't going to work. Yeah, and maybe that's where this positive practice change practice needs to come in is, is that, you know, rather than us going, this feels like it's not going to work, you know, we can't keep following this plan.

01:10:40:15 - 01:11:01:14
Kylie Morton
What we should be thinking about is, okay, well, what do we need to achieve? And by when? Yeah, you know, and how could we do that? What needs to change in order for us to achieve those? So there's a there's a shift that needs to happen actually, in not just change leaders and change enablers, but in employees as well.

01:11:01:14 - 01:11:25:22
Kylie Morton
And I think that that's where, you know, a positive change practice as a kind of like a warm blanket around all of it means that you have people who are helping you solve your problems, who are not just raising grumbles and concerns, but are saying, here's how I think I can fix that. And the reason why I think I can fix that is because I've used a systems thinking approach to understand the situation and I can come up with some solutions that'll work.

01:11:26:07 - 01:11:36:14
Kylie Morton
So it's kind of there's all these component parts that needs to come together, I think, to a better approach to change. And that's why that's why I'm really excited, I think, about being able to create that.

01:11:37:04 - 01:11:58:01
Daniel Franco
So I want to think about wrapping this up in a sense. We've actually got to shoot off in a minute. The lady listening in to this podcast, we have a lot of Ladies Executive Ladies Changemakers, all the above that. Listen, in big part of our audience we will be creating Synergy podcast. They're listening in going all those components that you just rattled off.

01:11:58:02 - 01:12:08:19
Daniel Franco
Yeah, I've got no idea where to start. I'm going to give colleague code. What does it look like when you would go into a business? What is that? What is using external consultant like yourself.

01:12:08:19 - 01:12:09:01
Kylie Morton
Yeah.

01:12:09:11 - 01:12:12:18
Daniel Franco
Look and feel like as you would approach that situation.

01:12:12:18 - 01:12:38:14
Kylie Morton
Okay. Well I think first of all, you know, we're creating a change framework that's based on systems thinking. So we we would come into your organization and actually explain that first and foremost. And then the second part we would do is identify where there might be some capability gaps to support that process. And then with our with a range of different kind of learning interventions may offer some opportunities for us to increase that capability.

01:12:38:14 - 01:12:38:20
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

01:12:39:11 - 01:13:13:06
Kylie Morton
The best, the best way that this is done is where we can come in and work alongside your you and your people to implement change using a positive change practice and a systems thinking approach and teach people as we go. And those kinds of people, you know, change leaders and enablers, you know, people who are people who are going to actually be adopting the change, creating awareness and understanding of all of the different capabilities that support it in the context of something you're actually trying to do right now.

01:13:13:10 - 01:13:25:16
Kylie Morton
Yeah, I think I think that's how you create it. I mean, you know, there's there's lots of there's lots of times where people have gone to training courses and it's great, you know, the great but it's the actual application of it.

01:13:25:16 - 01:13:46:02
Daniel Franco
Yeah, I got to, I had a meeting with a client this morning and I think one, one of the positive feedback that I got from them was, um, what we, what I love about the approach that you work with them on is the, is the simple fact that they, it is this co-creation. We don't, we don't believe that we're the experts in their business.

01:13:46:02 - 01:14:06:17
Daniel Franco
We have. But we know how to ask the right questions to get the results that they need. And we work with them to get there, as opposed to the just blank and rule of this is what we think is wrong or this is what you need to do and we recommend it is let's work together to get there and get you the outcomes that you need.

01:14:06:17 - 01:14:10:13
Kylie Morton
So I think an organization that wants to join the movement.

01:14:11:20 - 01:14:13:24
Daniel Franco
Join the all of this is the challenge.

01:14:14:06 - 01:14:53:21
Kylie Morton
I know, right? An organization change who wants to do things a little differently probably needs to have a similar mindset. You know, like let's get a little curious about what this is and and appreciate great the the science that's behind it, the knowledge that's behind it and be open to learning those capabilities in inside organization. But also having a having the confidence that, you know, doing these things approaching change differently, building capabilities in our people that we know will support better outcomes will result in better bottom line outcomes as well.

01:14:54:02 - 01:14:57:18
Daniel Franco
And the return on investment is we won't even start it. That's a no hard another topic.

01:14:57:18 - 01:14:58:00
Kylie Morton
Yeah.

01:14:59:04 - 01:15:27:24
Daniel Franco
I'm conscious of time because you've got to shoot off. If we were to wrap this up or we are in wrapping this firstly, I mean, if we're wrapping this up, wrapping it up and you have one last thing, you got it right. My main core reason for coming on this show, the one message that I want everyone to walk away with about change or the change management or whatever it is.

01:15:28:22 - 01:15:40:17
Daniel Franco
What is it? Because you've talked about thinking positively. Is it the mindset towards change? What is the one thing that you got right? That's it. Walk away with this and then you'll be one step better at change.

01:15:42:02 - 01:15:49:21
Kylie Morton
The one I want. I don't know if it's I want people to walk away with one thing.

01:15:49:21 - 01:15:50:15
Daniel Franco
Yeah, it's it's.

01:15:50:23 - 01:16:15:11
Kylie Morton
Hidden about it. But what I would like in terms to, you know, to set challenge, right, is to go if you are part of change, any part of it, whether you have instigated it, whether you are part of enabling it within a project, whether you're a project manager or a change manager, whether you are part of some of the other enabling functions like learning and development and communications and all of those different things that need make things happen.

01:16:15:18 - 01:16:28:11
Kylie Morton
Whether you're an employee who's part of change, think about how often you respond to the suggestion of change with the negative.

01:16:28:11 - 01:16:28:19
Daniel Franco
And.

01:16:29:12 - 01:16:41:16
Kylie Morton
Just pay attention to it. Let's just do that first. Nothing else because I guarantee that you will realize so quickly how often we start their first.

01:16:41:16 - 01:16:42:18
Daniel Franco
Yeah, we're starting off on the wrong.

01:16:42:18 - 01:16:47:02
Kylie Morton
Foot and it's a bit what's that thing where like when you want to by Hyundai all of a sudden.

01:16:47:02 - 01:16:47:20
Daniel Franco
You see I.

01:16:48:00 - 01:16:59:03
Kylie Morton
Yeah I think that when you really like when you start looking for how often you respond in the negative or how often you start your planning in the negative, it will become evident that the shift is needed.

01:16:59:03 - 01:17:00:06
Daniel Franco
You hear the language everywhere.

01:17:00:11 - 01:17:08:12
Kylie Morton
Absolutely everywhere. Yeah. Yeah. Brilliant. And then and take that awareness and start flipping it and change.

01:17:08:13 - 01:17:18:16
Daniel Franco
Create your own movement when you're an organization. Yeah, I love it. Where do we get in contact with you? How do people find you? How do they get in contact me? How they learn more.

01:17:19:01 - 01:17:30:00
Kylie Morton
They can reach out to me. I'm on LinkedIn so collymore on if you google search me on LinkedIn, send me an email. Kylie Morton at synergy IQ dot com you.

01:17:32:16 - 01:17:33:05
Daniel Franco
Go from there.

01:17:33:06 - 01:17:33:18
Kylie Morton
Go from there.

01:17:33:22 - 01:17:38:08
Daniel Franco
Beautiful. You can follow Kylie. She's going to be.

01:17:39:00 - 01:17:40:13
Kylie Morton
I'm going to bang on about this a bit now.

01:17:40:13 - 01:17:59:16
Daniel Franco
Yeah I think I think the movement started beautiful. Thank you so much. Thank you for all that you're doing. And look, you know, as a leader of the business of Synergy ACU, thank you for all the positivity that you're bringing into our workspace and the benefits that you're bringing to the team is huge and thank you for all the work that you're doing for the clients out there.

01:17:59:16 - 01:18:10:20
Daniel Franco
I know they're all sitting there clapping their hands saying, you know, kudos, thank you. It's really valuable. That's it from us. Thank you very much. We'll catch you next time.

01:18:10:20 - 01:18:11:13
Kylie Morton
All right. Thanks, Don.

01:18:11:22 - 01:18:31:08
Daniel Franco
Bye bye.