Synergy IQ 0:01
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Daniel Franco 0:19
Hi, this energizes and welcome back to another episode of the creative synergy podcast. My name is Daniel Franco and today we have the wonderful Georgie Harmon on the show. Georgie is the CEO of Beyond Blue and he's known for a decisive and personal leadership style and a track record for delivering complex reforms. She has significant experience in policy development, service delivery and change management across the community, public and private sectors. appointed CEO of beyondblue in May 2014, Georgia has diversified the organization's activities and led significant growth in service innovation, suicide prevention, and digital offerings in response to the community Nate Previously, she was the Deputy CEO of the National Mental Health Commission and for six years prior to that served as a senior executive at the Commonwealth Department of Health, where she had the national responsibility for mental health, suicide prevention, substance misuse, cancer and chronic disease. At the same time, she led the strategy and development of the legislation to introduce plain packaging of tobacco products in Australia, a world first, Georgie has also led national reforms to lift Australia's organ and tissue donation rates and worked in the HIV AIDS sector in Australia and the UK. She's also driven by determination to do better for people and their families using a community heart and a business head on today's show, Georgie and I dived into her personal journey into becoming the CEO of Beyond Blue, and she describes how it is the most purposeful job that she's ever had. And she's still continuing on her growth journey even after eight years in the role. We talked about the challenging work the face to team with the beyondblue every day, and how a culture of trust and clear communication is key to their success. We talked about managing oneself and setting your own personal boundaries to the different types of frameworks organizations can use to manage the well being of their people. We also touched on how vulnerability can be used as a superpower. And living as your authentic self is a fundamental pillar in managing your own mental health. We were both so enthralled in the conversation before we knew it, we ran out of time. So unfortunately, we had to wrap up pretty quickly. But it doesn't take away the quality of the podcast. It was an absolute pleasure talking with Georgie and I know you're going to absolutely love this chat. If you'd like to check out a profile, then you can check it out at Georgie Harmon or LinkedIn. And check out all the links that we spoke about on the Beyond Blue website. Feel free to connect with me also where you can find me at Daniel Franco on LinkedIn. If you'd like to learn more about some of the other amazing leaders that we've had on the creating synergy podcast and be sure to jump on our website at Synergy iq.com. Today, you will check us out on the creating synergy podcast at all the podcasts. So welcome back to the creating synergy podcast. My name is Daniel Franco, your host and today we have the amazing Georgie Harmon, CEO of Beyond Blue coming on the show. Thank you very much for

Georgie Harman 3:32
Daniel's lovely see.

Daniel Franco 3:35
So I'm going to kick off firstly by just saying thank you, for all the amazing work that you and the team are doing at Beyond Blue. And you know, especially over the past couple of years, it's been a pretty tormenting time for all. So the support that and everything that you and the team are doing, you know, kudos to you. And thank you very much. And secondly, I'm just going to preface this started at the start of this conversation that we're about to have that the topic of mental health is so big, right? We're not and it's so unique to every individual, that we're we could not possibly in this next hour, an hour and a half navigate away through all the nooks and crevices of what we would probably like to talk about. But I feel like we're gonna have a such a great conversation. So it just, you know, go where it goes today. So very excited. And so thank you.

Georgie Harman 4:33
Let me go back to that first statement. Look, it's lovely to be thanked. But But I think you know, I run an organization, I get paid to run that organization. It is an easy job, but it's also more than job. And I think that's the same for many of my staff. In fact, I know that's the case for most of my staff, if not all of them. But I also need to say thank you to the community because A lot of what we do at beyondblue is entirely dependent on the community trusting us. Whether that's because they want to support us, through giving us donations or giving us their time or, or promoting what we do, or, you know, encouraging their loved ones are their work colleagues to kind of contact us or indeed turning to us themselves. And a lot of what we do has is built entirely off the backs of community. And if we don't have the community's trust, and support, then we actually can't do what we do. So thank you to everybody. Who's a part of that?

Daniel Franco 5:38
Well, I mean, look, 90% of Australians know about beyondblue, right? I think that's the statistic that I've read somewhere and you know, 13 million people reach out to you, every year or reach out to the company every year, it's often the first place that people go to when they are struggling. So, I mean, just having that in place is an amazing effort. And something that you do need to be thanked for. And I understand that you you know, playing that back to the community, but it's something that you should very, you should all very be be very proud of in the work that you are doing. So before we jump into the Beyond Blue story, and everything that you guys are doing in mental health audit, I want to learn a little bit more about Georgie Harmon, who is Georgie, tell us, tell us about your journey. I know, you know, you're CEO of Beyond Blue Deputy CEO of the National Mental Health Commission, you know, University of Cambridge that you went to. Got a really great, sounds pretty impressive. It's a bit of a head wobble I see going on. Tell it tell us a little bit about your story. And how you got to where you're at? Yeah, look,

Georgie Harman 6:49
it's been an interesting journey. It's something that quite genuinely I am surprised, delightfully surprised when I hear you know, all of these credentials and appointments and experiences played back to me. And I don't say that to be cute about it, I genuinely am surprised at the fact that I was CEO. A very normal, you know, ordinary family, full of extraordinary people. But I was the first in my family to go to university, I had a very happy and, and, you know, childhood that was really formed with love and routine, not some hardship as well, that quite a bit of hardship. But, you know, I've got a glorious family. And I was born in the UK, I grew up in Singapore. And we went back to the UK when I was in high school. I left the UK as soon as I possibly could and became an Australian citizen some decades ago. So I've been in Australia for about 25 years. And look, my career has been all over the place. I studied history and history of art at uni, I didn't really know what I wanted to be I nearly became a lawyer. I ended up working in HIV AIDS at the start of my career, I fell in love with an Ozzy came out to Australia 25 years ago now, I think, and ended up being CEO of a small HIV NGO in New South Wales at the age of sort of late 20s. No idea really what I was doing. I mean, to me, so So and from there, you know, had a series I've worked for myself, I had my own consultancy for a while, I've worked in, in government's both in the Northern Territory, and in Canberra for the federal government. So I'm a recovering public servant, not a natural public servant. So and then I ended up helping set up the National Health Commission, as you said, I was appointed as Deputy CEO. And about eight years ago, I was appointed as the CEO of beyondblue. So there's, there's a lot of sort of ups and downs in my career, but the the kind of golden thread that I think holds it together is needing to be in work that had a sense of purpose and a sense of connection to people and their lives. And hopefully, through through contributions and by motivating and steering others, you know, having some kind of positive impact on others lives. It's the best job I've ever had this job at beyondblue. And I say that regularly and my staff roll their eyes at me but I really do genuinely mean it. It is a an absolutely. It's an it really fascinating organization. That's got a really rich history to it. And it's an absolute honor to be involved and and you know, indeed lead an organization like beyondblue

Daniel Franco 9:49
look, it's an area that that we work with a lot of as you know, we're a consulting firm working with with clients, helping them through their culture and helping them connect to that purpose. I mean, beyond blue is has that has that in spades. From a purpose point of view. I do want to ask though, and this is something that has been, it's been playing on my mind that since you agreed to come on the show, and I'm going to just give a quick personal background, my wife used to work for child protection. So government organization, child protection, and it was a depressing job. Like there was really horrible stories that she used to come home with. And, and I remember coming home saying, Laura, it just, I like my bubble. Like, I'm really happy within the bubble that I live in some of those stories that you're telling me, I don't actually really need to know. And, and so I guess is that is there an element that Beyond Blue could be a place of work that is tough to work at and purely from the stories and you know, not not depressing place to work. But I mean, in its most sincerity, you're doing so much to help the community but yet you're hearing so many stories of people struggling and and me being an empath I would, I'd really, yeah, I'd really struggle with that on my own personal level, you know, 13, maybe 13 million people reaching out a day. Nine, sorry, a year, I should say, nine suicides per day. You know, what, what do you guys do it beyond blue to measure the health and wellness of your own people? Yeah, to help support your people through these through these times?

Georgie Harman 11:35
Look, it's a great question. And and it's a question that we've had to really focus on, obviously, over the last couple of years, in particular, where as demand has really gone through the roof. And as a mental health and well being at a population level has declined significantly, and people have turned to us and record numbers. And we've been really disconnected as a team, we've all been working, most of us are based in Victoria. And most of us have been, you know, working from home for the last most of the last two years. So it's a really great question that we come back to, though the original premise, is it a depressing industry to work? I find my answer to that is it's hard, it's tough. Yes, you are exposed, inevitably, every day to stories of tragedy, and struggle. And, and, and, you know, I find my job frustrating sometimes, because we know what the solutions are, to improve the lives of people from a systemic and a policy level. And we don't, we haven't yet seen the level of reform that we need to see at a national or local level. But conversely, I find this job to be joyful, and to be a job full, full, full of opportunity of meeting the most extraordinary people who at times, including right now are living through great adversity, and facing challenges that I have, I would never, I don't think I could necessarily survive or thrive in. And they do. And they they are the most extraordinary human beings. And they have great wisdom and passion and skill and expertise. And yet, often they're defined by the mental illness. So I, I, in my job inevitably meet many, many people who have stories of struggle, but also stories of hope and recovery and resilience. And that's where I find the joy in this job. It is a job where you absolutely do need to set boundaries. And again, those boundaries have become increasingly blurred, since the pandemic because it's everywhere. I can't open a newspaper, turn on the TV, listen to the radio without people talking about mental health and well being I think that is a good thing. But But I need I actually have to very deliberately set strategies that separate my professional life from my personal life. Having said that, though, this is personal to me, I have experienced depression myself, I'm a person who is vulnerable to depression. And I know what I have to do to keep myself well, and that's a constant. That, you know, that has been a challenges but again, especially over the last couple of years, so it's it's all of those things. Back to your question, though, what do we do to look after our staff? It starts at the top, it starts with me, the board and the leadership team, talking really openly about the kinds of things that I've just said to you that, you know, I struggle myself sometimes it has been a really tough and punishing time. These are the things that I have, I have experienced these are the strategies that I employ. way, boy, I'm having a bad day, how are you guys going? So really being open and very human about telling my story and talking about my experience, and setting the tone and culture for the organization where it's absolutely safe to do that, where people can say to themselves, well, if that's happening to the CEO, then it's actually okay to talk about what's happening to me. And I can turn to my manager, I can turn to our support services. So it's a cultural piece, first and foremost. And it starts with really strong leadership on it. And then of course, you've got to have the channels of dialogue with staff, you've got to be asking both openly and in an anonymous structured way, how are people going? How are they feeling? How confident are they about disclosing that they may be struggling mentally. So we do all of those, you know, the ongoing engagement surveys, and we also have a number of other channels of dialogue and feedback to a feedback for staff. And we run a whole bunch of, you know, development programs. So, you know, mental health, first aid training, suicide assists training,

we've got Mental Health First Aiders on staff, we've obviously got an EAP. And obviously, our support services that we offer to the whole community. So it is a cultural piece of it, it's also then a policy practice and support piece as well, and but a mentally healthy workplace is not a place that actually just has a morning tea. And so are you okay, once a year, or it's not about fruit bowls, and yoga, it's about good job design, it's about culture, it's about leadership, it's about anti stigma, it's about absolutely no tolerance for discrimination, harassment, and bullying. It's about empowering your staff. And it's obviously then about good policy and having those support structures as well.

Daniel Franco 17:04
There's, there's a lot in that, that I are gonna get 10,000 different questions just popped out of my head, I want to go back to the start where you mentioned boundaries. And setting clear boundaries, especially for yourself. And a big portion of our listener base is at the is that the C suite level is at the senior leader level who have people working, have staff working on the under their under their leadership. I also want to touch on the fact that you mentioned purpose early. So having a purpose and a clear purpose is something that will keep you getting up out of bed every day right with it. We know that to be true. How do you set boundaries when you're so connected to the work that you're doing? Like, and that's something I think I struggle with, I love what I do, to the point where I bite off more than I can chew. And I know that's not only me, I know that a lot of people in the same boat. So how do you go about setting your own personal boundaries?

Georgie Harman 18:15
Yeah, it's Look, I'm a work in progress. I think, you know, sometimes I don't take my medicine. And I have to, you know, really watch myself and know the signs and sit and signals. And I'm starting to wobble a bit and starting to kind of burn out a bit. So, you know, it starts with really simple strategies for me. It starts with, you know, I've got sorry, you can't see this, because it's podcast, but I've got a beyondblue young blue badge. So it's our logo, and it's on a little metal pin. And I wear it every day. When I and especially during the pandemic when we're working from home, and there were no boundaries between work, and home, obviously. And I was working very long hours. I had this I use this as a device and I used to get up in the morning. And when I put my pin on I was on I was that was work. And then when I took my pin off, and I moved to a different part of my living space. Yeah, that was my time. That was home time. And so there was something sort of psychological about that shift of very purposely going through a routine or a kind of, you know, just that simple micro symbolic act of removing my pin, took my mind in switched my mind somewhere else. Now obviously, not completely, but it was a discipline that actually really helped me. I'm a great list maker. So if there are things that I'm doing that I'm finding I'm sliding into bad habits, I will write myself a list of the things that I that are really important for me to do every day. Whether that is to go for a walk or, or, you know, call a friend or switch off and get a, you know, sleep is really important to me. So, you know, there are there are, there are certain things that I do. For me, I inevitably, you know, do work hard. And I think that's that's the life of any CEO or C suite person. But it is actually about making sure that you do carve out time in your life for others who actually mean something to you and to hold you up and to make you laugh and who love you. And can tell you to shut up and stop talking about

Daniel Franco 20:47
is that is that the bad habits that you're talking about? You said, when when I noticed myself falling into bad habits, is that is that the inability to put the phone down?

Georgie Harman 20:58
Yes. So there's, there's two or three things for me, it is a not being able to get off my devices. And then I've got to just be checking my email all the time. So you know, setting up different different ways dopamine, yeah, yeah. Or just that, that sense of almost like, you know, I've got to be constantly on because, you know, there may be something that my team needs, or, you know, a minister needs or whatever. And it becomes a self fulfilling kind of sense of self importance. Sometimes, you know, like, the world can't exist without me. So I've got to be constantly on you know, which is ridiculous. So it's about, you know, the constant being on and connected to devices and, and information. The other thing I have to really watch out for is my alcohol consumption. You know, when I start to hear you open a bottle of wine every night, and you know, make excuses of you know, that's just just one or two, and then all of a sudden, I half bottle or whatever. And also sleep. If I find myself not getting a good night's sleep, that's probably the biggest thing for me is everything starts to to look less good. If I can't, if I don't, if I fall into bed sleep hygiene patterns. So again, taking my devices and looking at my devices before I go to sleep, you know, not getting enough hours quality sleep.

Daniel Franco 22:23
What would what would you say the hours would be an optimal Goldilocks,

Georgie Harman 22:27
I reckon at least six for me, you know, ideally eight, but that's becoming more difficult.

Daniel Franco 22:33
In sleep to eight out well, I can Yeah, I

Georgie Harman 22:37
used to have no problem. But I've found as I'm getting older, actually, I can't I don't, don't sleep as well. Never had a problem sleeping until well, it's

Daniel Franco 22:46
something sort of sparked in my head as you you said, I like to have a couple of wines. But then I also like to sleep now I know for a fact that alcohol actually disrupts the quality of sleep. Again, counterproductive in that are right. But we often think that I'll have a few few ones or a few scotches just to calm me so I can go to sleep. And in fact, that actually does the

Georgie Harman 23:12
it does entirely the opposite. It's a very bad sleep aid, it will help you to go to sleep potentially, quickly. Yeah, it causes really interrupted sleep. Really bad for sleep. Yeah.

Daniel Franco 23:25
So moving back up the rabbit hole to the pin. I really liked the clear delineation, when moving into what is home life and removing the pin. That's something you know that the Beyond Blue pin, I've actually heard, I think I even read it in. There's a book called deep work, I correct me if I'm wrong, if it's not in that book, but it was about actually saying, I'm starting work now. Like you say it out loud. And as you log off, you turn your computer off, you shut the laptop down and you say I'm finishing work now that in its own right has it does have a psychological benefit.

Georgie Harman 24:01
It's a form of mindfulness. And you know, mindfulness is is often a poo pooed concept. You know, it's about holding hands and humming. It's actually a really scientifically based evidence informed strategy that is very, very good for our mental health. It centers us it brings us into the present and it it focuses us and it can move us from one domain of thinking to another so that is exactly what you're talking about. You're talking about saying out loud and with purpose. I am now stopping work I am now moving into a different area of my life. And it sounds ridiculous but it works Triax be like deep.

Daniel Franco 24:43
The mindfulness piece for me is is there's this test that I like to do and I do it every now and again on just on myself you know shits and giggles or whatever it might be but think about the the test is thinking about yourself. Getting up off the seat, like when you're sitting down, and you're getting up to stand and count how many times during the day that you can catch yourself in that moment getting up off the seat into standing, and count how many I guarantee you will not get more than three times a day. That's guaranteed. You. Yeah, you just and, and so it just it's a way of capturing yourself and trying to be mindful and bringing yourself back but or I can guarantee you'll forget about it. And you just get into the moment. And anyway, that's another

Georgie Harman 25:30
thing that I think, again, like when we're on this topic of these small acts that actually people don't think about in terms of their own self care, that are actually really effective. The other one is deep breathing. And again, you know, people go really come on Georgie, you know, if you are in a moment of overwhelm, or constant, you know, room, rumination or you're just feeling like things are getting on top of you, you're feeling really stressed, just stop and take three deep breaths, it 10 deep breaths, you will I guarantee it, it will, you will feel better, you will feel different. And you you then can reset and move on to you will think more clearly. It's also really good physiologically as well. So you know, these little

Daniel Franco 26:28
micro, it's micro meditation. That's exactly right.

Georgie Harman 26:31
And again, I think when people think about, you know, people struggling with mental health challenges, it's about psychologists, medication therapy, there are things that we can all do every day, alongside those things, if that's what we need, that actually can really maintain our mental health, protect our mental health aid recovery, slow us down, bring us into the present, calm our minds, which are incredibly effective.

Daniel Franco 27:01
Do you know, it's funny that you say that, because there is there's something that I do quite often and it and it is almost like, you know, when when someone says, oh, you know, my computer's not working, it's really slow, switch it off, then switch it on. Again, there's this something that I do, I close my eyes, and that as part of that breathing technique, but I feel like I've actually got this little bit of a reset button in my own head, you can really concentrate on just trying to clear your brain for 30 seconds. And as a way of reset, and it does it absolutely does wonders, does wonders, and, and I actually something I do as I arrive home from work. And then before I get out the car, you know, as almost as a way of resetting and okay, I'm resetting into into home life. So yeah, so so many of you go for a run, when you get home, there's something else that I do, and just almost use that as a circuit breaker between moving on to the next project or the next part of your life or whatever it might be. Yeah, and

Georgie Harman 28:07
actually having you mentioned exercise, and that's the other strategy that is really important to me, and that works really well for me is just, you know, I exercise, I go to the gym, got a personal trainer, and but even if it's just moving your body in a really gentle way, you know, walking around the park, around the streets, whatever, doing a few, you know, push ups on the balcony, that can really help as well. And the other technique that I use is, you know, it's about that sort of separation of work and play. Quite often when I go out, you know, we have this terrible thing that we do in social situations. Oh, you know, what's your name? What do you do? In a second question we ask. And you know, I come in. And the moment I say that people go, Oh, beyondblue such a great organization, which is lovely. But then inevitably, people want to share their story with me, and they want to seek advice from me, because nine times out of 10 Someone will either be going through something themselves or in a work situation or in a family situation. And quite genuinely they are, you know, they're desperate for advice, information support, and that's an incredible privilege. But it's something that I need to be really mindful of because if I'm out with friends, trying to have a social enjoyable time, and I end up in the corner with someone which again is I'm not complaining about it. And it's I think an important part of my role. Sometimes my friends say to me Georgie can you be Georgie, the accountant tonight? Yeah. And sometimes I do that. If I'm just might actually I just can't do it tonight. I need a need to just be with my friends and be a silly person tonight. Not being the CEO beyond

Daniel Franco 29:59
and now It is, I mean, you've got some great friends, right? Like,

Georgie Harman 30:06
best friends, they are magic, my friends,

Daniel Franco 30:08
well, that can actually recognize that I think that is another point that we need to actually dive into is spending time with people who aren't in your world sometimes is, like, my, I got a group of mates and you know, we just get together and talk football, you know, talk, talk, sport, talk Formula One, whatever it might be like, it is just an escape from the every day strategy, change culture, leading people, you know, eating KPIs all the above. So it is, it is nice to have. So, let's move back up the rabbit hole into that how beyondblue manage and you gave some really great ideas around some of the things that the beyondblue do. There's boundaries in place, there's, you know, the surveys as the opportunities as learning, there's mental health, Supervisory, you know, all the above. Do you set KPIs on this stuff? Is it is it something that you have entrenched, and you track on a daily basis?

Georgie Harman 31:15
No, no, it's not actually. And it's, I think, I think, and when we do in a macro sense, in the sense of, you know, the, the cultural scores, you know, and we measure things like, we started to measure things like, you know, how willing IT staff to disclose how confident are they to disclose that they're got a mental health challenge or struggle or a diagnosis? What, you know, what are the contexts in which they do that? Who would they trust to talk to you about that? So I think that's a really good barometer of this stuff. It's it's not a prevalence indicator, I think people in workplaces are fixated on measuring prevalence of mental health issues amongst their workplace. And my question is why? A prevalence is a lagging indicator, it's pretty meaningless indicator, I can guarantee you that at least one in five of your workforce will, if they're being honest and feel comfortable disclosing that we'll be ticking that box, because that's what we experience in the general popular working population, one in five of us, working Australians will experience a mental health challenge in any given year. So unless so what's the point of measuring prevalence? What are you going to do with that? You're much better off measuring things like levels of confidence of disclosure, willingness to seek support, perception of whether or not I, the leadership team and the organization generally take mental health of the workforce seriously, whether or not we model it and champion it. So those are the kinds of measures that we do. We do collect, we don't, we haven't moved into the space of setting targets as yet. But it's something actually we're looking at in terms of really lifting the capability and capacity of our people culture team and starting to get in place. Business intelligence and data and insights that actually measure different demographics and cultural and performance metrics. So it's a working we're a work in progress, like many organizations, I think we've got the foundations there. And I think, as people would expect, and should expect from an organization like beyondblue, I think we are, we've got the hallmarks and the characteristics, and the policies and the practices of a mentally healthy workplace. We don't get it right 100% of the time. But you know, we practice, we follow best practice when it comes to things like this. Do we measure it and report on it routinely? No, we don't actually. But it's something that my board and I are inactive conversation about. We've actually started ESG reporting for the first time, in our annual report, where we're starting to report on this kind of stuff. We don't have to as a not for profit, we're not required to but we've decided to hold ourselves to hold a higher standard who Yeah.

Daniel Franco 34:11
Amazing. Is there any? Is there any frameworks that you have seen that workplaces have used that you've you've thought to yourself, actually, that that's something that could really work? Yeah,

Georgie Harman 34:24
absolutely. So there are a whole bunch of frameworks out there that are incredibly evidence based that are broadly saying the same thing with slightly different methodologies or metrics. You know, everybody's got their own framework, right. But they're all loosely based on you know, what do you do to prevent what do you do to intervene early and how do you support so the prevention, intervention support parameters? The National Mental Health Commission has got a very good document that it's published last year. I think it's called Something like the National Mental Health work framework. So that's available on the Commission's website, Safe Work Australia have some really good materials. The beyondblue has a website called Heads up, which also has a framework as well. So all of these are free resources. If you want to start on the blues Heads Up website, that's heads up.org.au. There is a freight Yeah, framework that that's designed for all business, but also is adaptable for small business, which is really important.

Daniel Franco 35:41
Well, that was going to be a follow up question to this, we can keep going.

Georgie Harman 35:45
Yeah, so you know, a small business owner, you know, I can't I just can't imagine how they survive this stuff. You know, they don't have an HR department, it's them. The businesses their superannuation fund, they've, they've lived through the most tumultuous time and the uncertainty of the future for many small businesses just profound. And we know that these are people who are very stoic, and they quite often struggle in silence, and they feel deeply the responsibility of employing others. And they employ their friends and their family. And it's personal, right. And that their mental health really suffers. And they're the small business sector, as you well know, is that employs more Australians than any other size of business. So this is a sector that we need to really focus on. And thankfully, we are, we've got not just in the Heads Up website, a whole bunch of assets, free training, and resources for small business. But that's been designed for business, small business with small business owners, we've actually been funded by the federal government until the end of the year, to continue a low intensity service called new access for small business owners. And that is a completely free service that works one on one with a small business owner. And is a it's a six week or a six session treatment program, where you're assigned a coach, and that coach works with you to identify what the issues are for you, and what's driving them. And then through very evidence based cognitive behavioral therapy, teaches you and empowers you to deal with those problems and those struggles. And what we do is we actually measure clinically validated, well being and mental health improvement measures at every single point of contact between the person and their coach. And guess what, seven out of 10 small business owners are recovering, they're entering the program, actually, quite unwell, with quite severe symptoms. And they're leaving the program, not just with a whole bunch of strategies in their toolkit that they've got for life that are very practical, and very contextual to their working environment. Clinically, they are recovered. And so we're really proud of that program. So if people are interested, so can you Yeah, can you just repeat the Yeah, it's called new access for small business owners. And if you just Google that it's completely free. It's delivered entirely by telehealth. So it's very accessible. And telehealth mental health services delivered by telehealth, guess what, they're just as effective as face to face therapy, human rights. You know, some people prefer a face to face medium, we we actually, through the pandemic, we couldn't deliver this face to face for this reasons, and the recovery scores have not declined. So it's fine. It can be done through a platform, you know, online platform zoom or, or it can be done over the phone. It's extended hours. So we're not we just don't work in business hours. You have the same coach for the whole treatment program. It's completely free. You don't need a doctor's referral. You don't need a diagnosis. You just give us a bell. And we taught we we do a clinical assessment. And if you're too unwell, we think you need more specialists support we step you up into another service. If and if but if you're the right candidate at the right kind of stage and and and we think that this is a program that can work for you, you then get assigned a coach and off you go.

Daniel Franco 39:54
So I'm going to ask a little bit about that because it's Something I feel like. And I'll talk from a personal note, in a recent article that you wrote on the Guardian, you said that we can survive almost anything if we know that it has an endpoint, right? And the struggle seemed to stretch name is limitlessly into the distance struggles that seem to stretch limitlessly into the distance hit harder and ceases ceaseless uncertainty, you can chip away at resilience, right? So

Georgie Harman 40:29
how much am I a joyful person?

Daniel Franco 40:32
I mean, I didn't do the words and injustice, but they are amazing words. And it it's it's deep. I mean, it's almost paltry in my head, the as a leader of a small business or, you know, Team consulting company, 20 people strong. There are days where my brain is foggy, you know, days I go home with migraines, I get a lot of pains in the necks and in my neck and shoulders. And the overwhelm is, is, is real, right. And sometimes the ability to do something about it gets in the way, by just something else getting piled on, day in and day out. So what is when you say with that, the new access is you talked about we'll do an assessment. Is there a level? I mean, I would say a lot of people in small business would be in the world that I'm living in, right where it is tough, and you're dealing with people and that you just go keep on keeping on. I have I have not, in any point, fallen into a depressed state or anything like that. It's always just but it's the overwhelming and you know, the anxiety can be crippling sometimes. But is that where there's a when it when are you not? Well enough? Yeah, I think he's if you're even is that even a question? Well, I

Georgie Harman 41:57
think that's exactly the question we should be asking. And I think, you know, we too often talk about mental health when we're actually talking about mental illness. Mental health is a state we should all be aspiring to. We just like we should want to be physically healthy, we should want to be mentally healthy. But we conflate this, you know, we use the term mental health, and we're actually talking about mental illness. I want everybody in Australia to be constantly thinking about how their minds are working, how they're feeling about themselves, how their concentration levels are, what their levels of self worth, how are they feeling about their futures? And through those asking those questions of ourselves, not just oh, my knees a bit sore today, or I want to lose a bit of weight, or, you know, I want to earn more money. These are coins, these are these other questions that we should be asking ourselves because they're fundamental to our existence and our ability to live contributing lives as human beings. And that might sound really deep. And I guess in a sense, it is but we are asking ourselves too often the wrong questions. And if we ask ourselves, those kinds of questions on a regular basis, we become attuned to the times in our lives, we're functioning well. We're feeling joy, we're feeling happy, we're feeling connected to others, we're feeling connected to our work. We've We've got balanced in our lives, not stress free, and not trouble free. But we're able to cope with those stresses and troubles compared to those times where we're starting to feel wobbly, overwhelmed. We're starting to doubt ourselves, we're starting to hate ourselves a bit. We're starting to feel disconnected from those that we love. We're starting to shut people out with phone to alcohol, we're not sleeping well. Our bodies are starting to ache for unknown reasons. All of those things are signs that our mental health are starting to decline. And the general way we've talked about this is signs and symptoms. I want us to start thinking about it in terms of how are how am I? How am I feeling about myself and my feeling connected? And through that, noticing things physically about ourselves, noticing things about our behaviors, noting things, seeing things, things in the way that we're talking to others, noticing ways that we're feeling about our work in our lives. And then through that, understanding that hey, actually, I might I might need a bit of a tune up. You know, we were pretty good at generally at going and getting breast screens or you know blood tests when we're feeling a bit off, or, you know, all of the kinds of screens that we do general health checkups, let's have a checkup from the neck up every now and then there is absolutely nothing wrong with you picking up the phone and seeing to be on blue on a day where you feel that way, Daniel, there's absolutely nothing wrong with you, as a small business owner, if you're feeling overwhelmed, and those feelings last for a week or so calling beyondblue and saying, hey, I want to check out this new access service, you do not need to be profoundly unwell. In fact, we don't want you to be, we want to stop people getting to the point where they actually need specialist services. It's about prevention, and early intervention. And that's really beyond blue spot, sweet spot. You know, we want people to reach out to us before they are profoundly sick, we also want them to reach out to us when they're really sick too. And we can cater for both. But let's actually change the conversation, let's actually change the way we think about this. And not see that and see this as as sensible, personal and business strategy to keep ourselves mentally healthy and tuned up.

Daniel Franco 46:12
The overwhelm is when I experienced overwhelm when I experienced anxiety. And the consulting company that I worked, we were managing directories for is a company that deals with change. We help businesses through change. So I kind of know the fundamentals of change. And I know that when things are uncomfortable, it generally means that you are going through a growth time in your life. And so how do you differentiate between the overwhelm and the uncomfortableness of change? And then on top of that, what is your thoughts of the entrepreneurial world who, who then talk about hustle and hustle and hustle in it? And the nonstop you got to get it done? You got to work the long hours you burn the midnight oil, all this? You as a CEO of your employee? How do you wrap all that up into one package? And do you? Do you have any sort of disdain towards those thoughts of hustle, hustle, hustle or know what it can do to people's health?

Georgie Harman 47:18
Yeah, I mean, I, I am a person who actually gets a lot of energy from being pushed. Yeah. And, and, but it's when that tips it over into being pushing myself without purpose and the wheels turning, but actually just not going anywhere. And just cite that cycling, that endless cycling. So So I think it really comes down to this idea of self care. And again, self care is one of those terms that sounds very you age and meaningless and wooly. And again, I the way I frame it is going back to that idea that self care is the most important business tool that you've got, if you are not good. If you are not operating at your best, the best you can be every day in terms of your functioning. And some days, it'll be 30%, some days, it'll be 130%, then you are no good to yourself, you are no good to your company, you're no good to your team, or you're not going to be as good as you can be for all of those assets. And you're certainly not good for your family and your loved ones. So you know, this notion of self care as being a the the most important element of your business strategy, I think people need to pay attention to, and it's a way of introducing risk mitigation. Especially if you're in small business, you are the business quite often. So if you are not thriving, and again, not not none of us can thrive Andrew percent of the time. But if you are not practicing the things that keep you up right and keep you focused and keep you happy and healthy, then you're doing yourselves your business, your customers and your team a disservice. So it's self care is a quite often people feel quite uncomfortable about it because it actually is essentially a selfish act. It's saying my mental health and my well being is the most important thing. And I'm going to prioritize that among over and above anything else. So if you break it down, you think about like that, you could think about it as a selfish act, but it is not. It is a very, very important, essential, smart strategy. That means that you can be at your best you can be for, again, your business, your customers and Your team.

Daniel Franco 50:04
You've, you've been quoted saying vulnerability is your superpower. And I love that. And we're big Brene Brown fans here, creating synergy and synergy here. And she's the vulnerability superstar. King. Can you explain to us your thought your thought process when you say, vulnerability is your superpower? And? And can you be too vulnerable?

Georgie Harman 50:36
I think I have been practicing this term authentic leadership, which is the you know, the latest buzzword and the sort of hon leadership as word. I think I've actually been practicing those things. Without knowing them for my whole career, because there is I don't know what it is. But I've I've always approached and maybe not right at the start of my career where I was kind of trying to figure out what it was all about, and who I was and who I wanted to be. And it may be it comes down to the fact that I'm also a gay woman, and, you know, coming out very early in my career. And having a relatively good experience in that coming out, was really just like, well, I made a very conscious decision to just be me, and to be me at work, and to not try and pretend to be something that I wasn't and to not try and pretend that I was better than I because because again, I you know, it's you could lay I have experienced impostor syndrome, like a lot of people have, I've experienced lack of confidence, and I still do. But to me the way one of the ways that I cope with that is just to say, Well, what do I think I'm pretty good at? What do people connect with me on? And where do I get good feedback, and let me work on those things. And let me really amplify those. And those inevitably, were the things that I think are characterized as authentic and vulnerable leadership, talking really openly about who I am talking really openly about the values that I hold, and how I go about thinking and behaving in a workplace. You know, opening up and telling my own story, whether that's about, you know, being a member of the LGBTI community, or whether that is about my experience of depression, people far from in a world, we're often taught that toughing it out, is how you get ahead. That my experience of approaching that differently has worked for me. And it hasn't. It hasn't hasn't affected my career. I think it's actually helped my career, if I'm honest. And I think it's becoming more and more important, I think those leaders who still practice those very traditional hierarchical, barking orders at people inaccessible, closed and self important style of leadership. They're not going to thrive in this new world. No, they're not. And this generational shift that we've seen around what employees are looking for in their, in their employer, and guess what, behind remuneration, and conditions, younger generations are choosing who they want to work for, based on their perception of the company's values and whether or not they take mental health seriously. So again, it's not Washee business construct here. This is how in a world where talent is, we're absolutely in the middle of a war. Yeah. And you want to try and attract and retain the best and brightest. If you are not seen as a leader in a work place. That takes people's mental health and wellbeing seriously, you're not going to attract people, you know,

Daniel Franco 54:07
you know, and I think vulnerability is showing yourself that's right. But you I mean, you said it quite clearly earlier in this podcast that you don't have your good days, right. There are some days where you have you go home and have this couple of ones and, and you do have your ups and downs that in itself is is showing some vulnerability. It's not. It's not putting this facade on. Yeah. Where you're saying, I'm okay. And I'm going to I'm going to grin and bear it and get through this. Yeah.

Georgie Harman 54:45
I think that's right. And I think you know, the two things that I've learnt unequivocally in the last couple of years and leading my team through the pandemic, in a time where we've never been busier was I've you know, It's a form of effective crisis leadership, I think. And I think we need to change our mindset and move away from crisis leadership into, this is the world we need to lead in now. But, you know, fear flourishes in a vacuum. And it's at a time where we had really no idea what was going to happen. And what it would mean for us as humans, and what it would mean for us as a business. Not having all the answers was a really uncomfortable space for me. And I'm sure it was for every other person running an organization. But actually having the courage to admit, within boundaries to my team that actually, hey, I don't know what's happening here. I don't know what what is going to happen. These are the things that I do know, these are the reasons these are the decisions that I've taken with the board. This is how we're going to change how we work. This is why I don't know if this is the right decision. But we're whether it's I think it's the best decision we can take right now based on the information we've got. Stick with me on it. Let's see how we go was actually a really effective leadership strategy, because people said, I don't expect you to have all the answers. Of course, you can't have all the answers. I'd love you to have all the answers. I'd love you to be really straightened to give me security and certainty.

Daniel Franco 56:15
You had all the answers, they would question it anyway. That's right. But they responded

Georgie Harman 56:19
really well to that. And that honesty and transparency of actually don't know, I think this is the right thing for us to do. This is what we're going to do. Stick with me, was really powerful. And, and the other thing is, I think that showing a vulnerability, personally, when I did have time, hard times, far from losing the trust and confidence of my team, the feedback I've got is that they actually find real comfort in it. So again, as a couple of lessons, can you be too vulnerable? Of course you can. I mean, I think there are absolutely boundaries of how much information you share with your team. And your board. I mean, you know, at the end of the day, I work for a board, I need them to have confidence in me. And if one turning up to a board meeting and crying, every board meeting that smaller one, you know, with a bottle of wine, exactly, that's not going to work for anybody. No. So you absolutely do need to navigate and think hard about those parameters and those boundaries. But, you know, trust your guts on this, and you know, try something, see if it works, talk to those that you trust, see how that landed? Find your own voice in this, you know, don't stick to a formula just and sometimes just take a take a punt take a risk, open your mouth, see what happens. Yeah, I guarantee you nine times out of 10 will be a really positive experience for you and those who you're connecting with.

Daniel Franco 57:56
Yeah, echo that. I think, though, we have to be very clear on there needs to be boundaries. Right. I think that is the most you know, be open. Talk about hard times talk about the ups and downs. Absolutely. Experiences and, and whatnot. But yeah, there has to be some boundaries. I think it just even from a leadership point of view, you want to you want to see the vulnerability from your leader, you also want to know that they've got it. They've got it. They've got it together, right.

Georgie Harman 58:31
And they're asking the right questions, and they surround themselves by people who they are taking advice from listening to and, and, uh, but also being decisive. I think decisive leadership in times like, this is also incredibly important. I think, I think, you know, just coming back to the idea of setting boundaries, and you know, can't all be just, you know, opening up and sharing our stories of great tragedy and horror, and vulnerability. You know, beyondblue has a speaker's program where we got about three or 400 Amazing people who've had their own personal experience of depression, anxiety, suicide, suicide attempts and thinking baby and we we support them to tell their stories to share it share their stories with workplaces, with schools with unis with community groups. But the whole premise of that storytelling is we have to be really, the stories are hard to hear. They are honest, raw accounts of people's mental health and suicide struggles. But the whole program is absolutely built around the the the idea that you have to end with hope. You can't it's It can't just be all about an outpouring of of bad except of you know, difficulty. We have to these people then talk to that crowd about so this is What happened, it was bloody awful. And but this is what I did to stay take the steps towards recovery. So this is how I'm doing now. And this is why I'm here talking to you, because I need you to know that there is a way through this, there is hope. There is a life ahead.

Daniel Franco 1:00:19
You can rock bottom, and you

Georgie Harman 1:00:21
can come back. And you often need support to do that. And beyondblue and other organizations are a major part of that journey for many of the people. But quite, you know, there are always people in that crowd, who will then come up to our speakers and say, Thank you. That's exactly what I needed to hear. I need help. Yeah. So you have to offer hope, and a journey and a pathway towards recovery. And that's just as important as a business leader as well, you know, comes back to that, you know, I'm having a really hard time, this is what I'm doing about it. And this is how I'm leading this organization strongly, decisively. And with skill, despite the fact that, you know, it's hard.

Daniel Franco 1:01:04
I mean, and I don't want to take this out of context too much. But I mean, that's exactly what the vision of the businesses is in the hope that we can achieve this for the community that we can achieve this for the world that we can achieve this for our people, you know. And that is why working for a purpose is so is so clear. But thank you for sharing that. I want to just touch quickly on the the authentic self, it is about it. They are it is a buzzword right there. But But you did also and I do follow you on Twitter, you on your most recent tweet, you said, you know, living as your authentic living as your authentic self has is a vital pillar to mental health. And can you elaborate on that point living as your authentic self, but I'll put with the umbrella of the LGBTI community, the First Nations community that religious and cultural beliefs that come under that and how important it is for us in workplaces, to understand those areas.

Georgie Harman 1:02:16
Well, I make it my business to not talk on behalf of groups that I am not part of. So I won't try and understand how it feels to be a person of color or First Nations personal. But what I can say as a woman and as a as a lesbian is that. And as a person who has lived with an experienced depression, that all of those parts of my life actually make me who I am, you know, we're all made up of a rich tapestry of experiences of cultures of trauma of strength of, you know, bloodlines, culture, whatever. Yeah. And if we come to work, and we work in an organization where that actually celebrates that, and is interested in that. And, you know, we all know the evidence and research it's it's immutable that groupthink is a death knell for business. Diverse teams actually make better decisions. An inclusive workplace, actually, where people feel that they can bring themselves whole selves to work and be empowered to, to, you know, to do that are more motivated, more committed to the business? Give that discretionary effort, all of those things, right? So it's, it's business, the business case for this, all of this. So, so that is as simple as it gets, in my view. If if I was to come to work, and not feel safe, or secure or confident, and I don't know, there have been some workplaces where I've, I've not shared everything. Or some managers that I've worked for, I've chosen not to, for various reasons, but but those workplaces where I can and have, I've thrived, I've done better. Because the moment we cast a shadow over ourselves, or we self impose, we throw a blanket over ourselves, we actually dull the parts of ourselves that that actually are probably the most creative and the most valuable to the business that we work for. Our ability to think differently, our ability to have networks that the business wants to connect with our bit our ability to think about and design services and products that actually cater The people who have a different life experience and a different cultural need. That's what business needs, it needs a workforce that reflects the community or customer base that it serves. So if you're not creating a culture where people can disclose and share parts of the tapestry of who they are, you're actually missing out on a skill base that you don't even know is there. It's another way to think about.

Daniel Franco 1:05:32
So from a workplace point of view, and on, on on the, you know, there's this calendar days such as, are you okay? They, there's harmony, we, there's International Women's Day that, you know, all these transgender they all these days, too, they play a really positive part in society today in making in making people feel comfortable at work, and sharing their stories. What do you I mean, I mean, why does it there need to be a date? And I ask this sincerely, does there need to be a day dedicated to? Or is it just something we should just do every day? Like, in my opinion, it is something we should be doing every day. But

Georgie Harman 1:06:16
yeah, oh, look, I absolutely agree. But is there it's a, it's a, I think it's a conversation that we're having more and more is like, and there is a, you know, a lot of cynicism about these kinds of days. And I actually feel that some of that cynicism myself at times. But I also do think that until we get to the point where, you know, transgender people, for example, can come to a workplace and just be themselves or transition at work, and it's not even a theme, then we do need days where we bring the rest of the community, we educate, we ventilate we talk, and create a time where these issues. So you know, like, we're at purple, which is a day that celebrates gender diverse and non binary binary young people. That sends a signal to them, that this is a workplace that actually is interested in wants to learn. And

Daniel Franco 1:07:24
so we have a team member in our team who's whose child is a non binary, I find identifies as non binary. So I want to ask and elaborate on that. And you would see this quite a fair bit throughout our organizations, is it up to the leaders to promote that? I mean, like to really embrace it. Like, for me, it's a element of absolute, like, what someone does with their personal life and what how someone chooses to live and represent themselves. It's, it's none of my like, it's not something that I feel like I need to go out and promote. But I absolutely have acceptance of everyone that walks in through these doors, and anyone that that, you know, so is it, I think the question I'm asking you, is it the role of a leader to really get out there and promote that, or an organization to really get out there and promote that and what role does a leader and organization play in this,

Georgie Harman 1:08:32
I think the role of a leader is to is to model and champion the values of the organization that they lead. And, you know, any organization that isn't embracing diversity, respect, and inclusion as part of their core values of their organization, whether they're for profit or or or a not for profit organization, I mean, that is what people are looking for, the blurring of, of light of life and work is forever changed. And, again, people are being much more discerning about the type of companies that they are working for. So is it the role of a leader, I think it's a role of a leader to, to, to absolutely not walk past discrimination to call out discrimination when they see it to model and champion the values of inclusivity and diversity and, and humanity and kindness. But, you know, in the circumstances that you talked about, may be guided by that staff member that is in a very personal family situation that they may not, you know, let them guide you as to in there, as their leader is about how they, what kind of support they would like from you, if any, you know, and the the, you know, the thing being, if any. So, the back to these days of significance. They are important, I think, and they do play a role. but they are absolutely meaningless if they are literally a morning tea, where we blow up balloons and wear purple. Yeah, it's about what we do every day to continue, maybe not, you know, issue by issue, but actually just as a cultural piece. Again, coming back to those, how do we live and breathe the values of diversity, inclusion and humanity and respect? So, you know, do you have to have a morning tea and wear a different color every day? I think that's pretty meaningless. Actually. I think what's much more meaningless is a meaningful is when people see in their leaders, that they are absolutely legitimate about stuff like this. And when stuff happens, that's not good. That leader says that's not okay. That's not who we stand for as an organization. And this is what we're going to do about it.

Daniel Franco 1:10:53
Was standard, you walk past resistance, right?

Georgie Harman 1:10:58
Yeah, so it's about it's about the day to day behaviors and activities of a leader in a business much more important than having a morning tea to say, are you okay? Or? And again, I'm not, I'm not, you know, being negative. I think those those gatherings do spark really important conversations and do send very strong signals to, to groups that do face advanced adversity. So I think there is absolutely an important and legitimate role

Daniel Franco 1:11:24
that they bought no doubt, I think they, at the very least create awareness. Right. Which is it's a, it's an excellent step in the right direction.

Georgie Harman 1:11:38
But from it, you know, awareness is not good enough. Yeah, currencies. You know, that's how beyondblue started. beyondblue was all about raising awareness of depression. We did that very successfully. Yeah. But then what so what, you know, awareness needs to lead to behavior change, and awareness leads needs to lead to discrimination being eliminated. awareness needs to lead to people acting on their mental health literacy, whether that's by not saying stupid things, or discriminatory things or, or supporting someone to seek help, or indeed, seeking help themselves. So it's from awareness to action. That's important.

Daniel Franco 1:12:25
I agree. The there's so many questions, so many areas that I want to go and I am conscious of time, but the there is another area within workplaces that I'd be really keen to pick your brain on. And that that is workplace bullying. You know, wanting to Australians experience workplace bullying. That's it. That's a really scary statistic. And one thing that we often see, especially when you know, we work with businesses in that culture, space, we work with a lot of leaders and too many times, and I'm not just saying ask, but we see it across organizations that we speak to you guys go out there and ask anyone, and I'll guarantee you they'll come back with a story where they know this happened, where you see that brilliant jerk, get the promotion, right? And or the most technical, and the technically inept person becomes a leader, who have absolutely no idea how to lead people. They get the promotion. So so how can in your opinion, how can businesses help set up for success? And to add to reduce the level of bullying and harassment that they see in their organizations?

Georgie Harman 1:13:48
Well, I mean, I'll approach this from the mental health side of things, because obviously, that's that's where the anger was supposed to come from. Yeah. And I think, you know, discrimination, bullying, harassment, prejudice, exclusion, all of those things are very detrimental to our mental health. So as workplaces and as workplace leaders, we absolutely, we've got a legal responsibility, right? We cannot tolerate it. We've got to have we've got to provide safe workplaces, for our people. And where people report or allege bullying, we have to act on that. And there are a whole range of ways that we can do that. But you know, we've had we had to set the tone from the top we have to make it really clear what our legal and moral position is on this stuff. We have to have the policies in place that set up very, very clear definitions of bullying and what isn't bullying and harassment, we have to those policies have to To set in place very clear processes and procedures that are then understood and followed, we have to have options for people to report, you know, different options for people to report. And when reports are made we we need to act on them, we need to, and that that can be a whole range of responses, right through to obviously informal investigations that are completely independent of the organization. And it's having that really clear, consistent policy and process framework that I think is probably one of the most important things. And then to make sure that people are aware that that that is the position and process and procedure that the organization has in place. One of the real challenges, I think, in the spaces is that, you know, people, there is conflict, when they're at whether people working together, there will inevitably be differences of opinion and conflict. And this is a space where you know, that that difference of approach opinion, can lead to real conflict that ends up in allegations of bullying. And again, like, we shouldn't resolve from this, this is this is just part of, of being part of a work place, wherever you have people, there will be difference, and sometimes that difference will be glorious. And sometimes that difference will be really, really challenging. But again, I think the it's incumbent on all of us, as leaders of workplaces to be really clear about what our position is. And to and four are the practices of our organization to reflect that position. Um, consistently. And, yeah, I mean, workplace bullying can destroy people's lives, and can make them really unwell and can be tragic sometimes. Yeah, defend that, but the whole process has got to be fair for everybody. It's got to be fair for both sides, it's got to, you know, it's got to be a very clear, fair process that resolves allegations as quickly and expeditiously and as fairly as possible, based on the facts and the evidence.

Daniel Franco 1:17:24
Do you think, diversity, having a more diverse workplace will reduce the workplace bullying?

Georgie Harman 1:17:37
I don't know, I don't feel qualified to actually know, you know, I think that would need a sensible response to that would be based on research evidence. And I don't, I don't think

Daniel Franco 1:17:50
I think I think where my mind goes in this space is I think of a construction site where there's predominantly a male dominated site. And then the when there would be a lot of banter that goes on that site, right, and you think about adding a female to that site, it's probably not the greatest workplace that female could be in, but then you add two or three more females to that work that then you know, you get 50% female, then all of a sudden, you introduce all these different races and, and I think naturally, that the original banter that was floating around, which can be can come across as, as bullying or can come across, I think, just naturally, you see the progression of different races, different cultures, different thought processes, the diverse levels of thinking route will differ in my opinion has that there. But I again, let's not go there. But let's sit on research. I'm trying to do a quick, practical mass analysis in my head right now. We can't go through a podcast talking about mental health without talking about children. And I really want to ask you a question, Is it is it true that half the mental health issues we have as adults emerge by the time we're 14 years old?

Georgie Harman 1:19:10
Absolutely. Yeah. So this is mental illness, mental health challenges, mental health issues, disproportionately affect young people. So half of all adult mental health challenge illnesses will have emerged before the age of 14 and three quarters by the age of 24. I think it is 21 Maybe. So, so unlike other chronic diseases, if you like, which generally affect us like diabetes, heart disease, which generally affect us later in life. Mental health conditions affect us earlier in life, and they are someone's life trajectory in terms of their mental health will be out Absolutely sat down through the earliest years of their lives. So if a young, if a child is born into poverty, into family violence, into insecure housing, into sexual violence, and assault, that trauma of early childhood, Will, unfortunately, usually set that person up for a life where they struggle with mental health challenges. Not always, but the it will disproportionately affect them when it comes to mental health over a lifetime. So that's where we've got to start, we've got to start with putting our arms and services and supports and giving opportunity to those young people, children and their parents and caregivers, who live in poverty, who live in insecure housing, who don't have educational opportunities, who experienced discrimination and prejudice. That's where we can make the biggest gains when it comes to turning around the economic and social burden of mental illness in Australia. And that's the group that we often don't think about, we spend a lot of money in Youth Mental Health, quite rightly. But my view in the view of Beyond Blue, and for many years, and the view of many other great organizations is that we need to start earlier, those first two, three years of life are absolutely fundamental to, to the Mental Health and the Mental wealth of a nation. And that's not about diagnosing kids or labeling kids, it's actually about healthy, healthy childhoods giving support to families, making sure that families have a roof over their head in our food on the table, that those kids grew up with routine structure and love that those parents are supported to do that. And that, you know, those kids attend school and any problems are picked up early and support is provided. And if they start to describe struggle in terms of their behaviors, or their mental health or their connection with others, or how they play with the other kids, those things are picked up. And that family is given specialist support to help that child and their family to to address those those behavioral or mental health challenges. That's where we can make the biggest difference. So yeah, it's a it's a fascinating area. It's an area which often polarizes people and gets beaten up by the media in particular about the fact we want to label kids and we want to diagnose kids, that's actually not all talking about, we actually want to screen and assess kids who, who are starting to show behavioral difficulties and get them specialist support as quickly as possible so they can get back on track. And they don't end up having a diagnosable mental ill Yeah.

Daniel Franco 1:23:22
Yeah, absolutely. is another point which we haven't brought up too much. Is there a fear that the past few years with the pandemic and everything that's gone on the being out of school all the above? Is that going to have a detrimental effect on on the younger generation?

Georgie Harman 1:23:42
Yeah, I think there's, there's a lot of concern about this, quite rightly, I think. And I think, you know, there's a lot of research that is looking at this right now, what we know is that all of the factors that do protect kids and young people's mental health have been really challenged over the last couple of years. So again, that routine, that connection with peers, those opportunities to learn how to sit in a classroom and learn together. There's the social constructs around that the play constructs around that, and skills development concepts around that those rites of passage of, you know, starting school or moving from primary to High School, graduating, you know, school ease, all of these things have been taken away for a lot of kids and young people and that has been really damaging. We know that they tell us I think it's important what we do now, though, and we know through any major life event or natural disaster or, you know, big population event that causes population level trauma or difficulty Most people will bounce back, most people will be absolutely fine 80% 10% will not do very well and 10% will be somewhere in the middle. So most kids will be absolutely fine. In fact, I'm really interested in the flip side of that, which is having lived through a time of real champions versity, that the resilience, the adaptability, the creativity. What is this generation going to? Do? I think that they might be an extraordinary. So

Daniel Franco 1:25:33
it was, it's a follow up question that I've got is where does resilience play in all this? You know, as from especially from the children point of view, but also from going through this pandemic, right. And the past few years of, there's definitely an element of posttraumatic stress there you see some of the premiers get on, on the TV with the police commissioner, or the place, and the health commissioners, and you go, Oh, hang on, what's what's going on here? You start getting that sick feeling. But from from the, from a human point of view, do you believe the past few years is actually going to be beneficial for the human race?

Georgie Harman 1:26:23
I think it's too early to tell, to be honest, I think we know from all the research evidence that's emerging that there will be a major increase in depressive illness in anxiety conditions. And in, you know, in sort of trauma related post traumatic stress, that kind of stuff. We know that globally. And Australia will obviously not be immune to that. What we don't know is the long term impacts on at a population health level. And what we don't know is and there's there's a real paucity of research evidence yet around the impact on the development of kids. So I think that is something that, you know, there are some really good research studies going on. And some of them have reported that I think, you know, it's kind of too early to tell, you need to really measure over time, obviously, whether or not this is going to have a lasting impact and what the extent of that impact is going to look like. But I think the important thing is right now we're going to be really vigilant to it. The mental health sector sector has got to be supported with sufficient capacity, I mean, the workforce is exhausted. You know, we've all got to be really mindful of that. And we've got to be really, you know, governments, communities business, have got to be really mindful of supporting people who are struggling. And we've got to start building a system that can deal with that. That potential ballooning effect, we're going to see over the next two to three years.

Daniel Franco 1:27:59
Let's just jump straight into the quickfire questions. I had 1000 Other questions to ask you, but you are a very busy human. So you need to shoot off? What are you reading right now?

Georgie Harman 1:28:12
About six books, all of which very badly, and none of which I can remember the titles of I've actually just bought the latest quarterly essay, which is about mental health during the pandemic, so I'm really looking forward

Daniel Franco 1:28:24
to quarterly essays. And who's that published by? Remember?

Georgie Harman 1:28:30
Well, like it's, it's, I can't remember who the publisher is, it's a fantastic series of essays obviously come out about different sort of social issues. Very

Daniel Franco 1:28:39
good. What's one mental health book that someone could pick up and read, and it will have a big impact on their life. In your opinion,

Georgie Harman 1:28:48
there's an author called Jill Stark and she's written a book called happily never after. And it's all about her experience of anxiety. It's a really good hopefully never, ever write. Happily never after, it's really focused on anxiety, but really help people understand how someone can appear to be very successful in life, and actually, you know, be really, really struggling underneath.

Daniel Franco 1:29:14
Brilliant, that in the shownotes for people to click on to what is one lesson that's taking you the longest to learn

Georgie Harman 1:29:19
that I'm never going to be successful?

Daniel Franco 1:29:24
You got the small person syndrome and

Georgie Harman 1:29:30
what's one lesson that actually that actually I'm okay, you know, I'm, I'm good. And it's not it's taken me a while to kind of get to that point where, you know, I need to believe in myself, because I'm actually okay. I'm good at what I do. And, and yeah, so that's, that's it. I think I'm there now.

Daniel Franco 1:29:58
I think it's a lesson we all need to learn be comfortable in your own skin isn't really. If there's three people that you could invite for dinner, who would they be?

Georgie Harman 1:30:08
Well, it's three people I'm having regularly round for dinner at the moment, and I'm just loving it is my mom, my dad, and my partner. And I haven't seen my mom and dad for four years, they arrived in Australia. They live in the UK. They arrived in Australia a couple of weeks ago. And it's just been delightful, reconnecting and getting to know one another, again, in a sense, and sitting there and just talking a lot and, you know, eating good food and enjoying one another's company. So that's, that's, that's those are the three people that I that I want to share meals with, right?

Daniel Franco 1:30:51
Sounds divine sound. And you mentioned that you hadn't seen him for four years. And through this pandemic, they've been living in the UK, so you must be very happy time in your life, which is exciting. What some of the best advice that you've ever received.

Georgie Harman 1:31:09
Trust your guts. is so true. Yeah. Don't Don't ever divert, don't overthinking. Sometimes you've just got to really trust your instincts in making decisions. And I think quite often we spend a lot of time worrying about whether or not the decisions that we're going to take are going to be the right ones. And we wait until we've got all the evidence and all the information and all the risk analysis, and sometimes it's too late. So just trust your gut. Sometimes you just got to make decisions based on your instincts.

Daniel Franco 1:31:44
I love it. If you had access to a time machine, where would you go? Oh,

Georgie Harman 1:31:49
that's what I go. I reckon I'd go back to go back to Egyptian early Egyptian times. I think that would be really interesting. Yeah, I don't know why. But that's just off the top of my head and thought a

Daniel Franco 1:32:09
good question to have around the dinner table tonight. Yeah, yeah. If you had one superhero power, what would it be?

Georgie Harman 1:32:18
To make the world a kinder place?

Daniel Franco 1:32:22
Make the world a place like that? It's a big burden on your shoulders, though. And I'm a lover of a shit joke. So do you have a good you know, they call them dad jokes. Mom jokes? Do you have a good dad joke for me?

Georgie Harman 1:32:44
Well, it's kind of along the lines of the term that you just use what's Brown and sticky?

Daniel Franco 1:32:49
I'll let you tell the punch line, what's Brown and sticky? As well done. Very good. I love that one. It's, it's the most it's the it's the one I use the kids all the time. Thank you. Very, thank you very much. for your time today, George, I mean, absolute pleasure. We've We've like I said, we we didn't probably cover all the nooks and crevices but we definitely touched on some really, really deep topics. And I just want to thank you from the community for everything that you're in the Beyond Blue Team and doing amazing work and that offering of support. And for those who are interested, we'll put it all the the you know, the new new access. And the website links in the in the show notes for you to click on to and explore what Beyond Blue having their offerings. So yeah, just wanted to say thank you again.

Georgie Harman 1:33:41
Pleasure, Daniel. Thanks for having me.

Daniel Franco 1:33:43
No problem. Take care. Oh, whoo. We'll catch you next time. Thanks for listening to the podcast though. You can check out the show notes if there was anything of interest to you and find out more about us at Synergy iq.com.au. I am going to ask though, if you did like the podcast, it would absolutely mean the world to me if you could subscribe, rate and review. And if you didn't like it, that's alright too. There's no need to do anything. Take care guys. All the best.

Synergy IQ 1:34:09
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