Synergy IQ 0:01
Welcome to Creating synergy where we explore what it takes to transform. We are powered by Synergy IQ. Our mission is to help leaders create world class businesses where people are safe, valued, inspired and fulfilled. We can only do this with our amazing community. So thank you for listening.

Daniel Franco 0:19
Hi, there synergizers and welcome back to another episode of The creating synergy podcast. My name is Daniel Franco and today we have the amazing Aga Bajer on the show. Aga is an expert in corporate culture and currently the founder and CEO of culture brain which is a one of a kind virtual community of leaders looking for new ways of cultivating remarkable cultures at a scale in this brand new way and World of Work. On top of this Aga runs her own consultancy firm. She's an author, a keynote speaker and a fellow podcast host where she runs the world renowned podcast the culture lab, where every interview is of the highest level and she's interviewed some world leading thought leaders such as Simon Sinek Francis Frey and Seth Godin. Aga is one of the foremost experts in corporate culture and over the past 20 years, she has been helping companies pay attention to their culture in a way that produces desirable results. From VC courting startups to Fortune five hundreds, she's worked on cultivating remarkable cultures that that scale and help people through the best work of their careers and consultancy firms such as Hay Group, Korn Ferry and PwC. And later she founded her own consulting firm Aga Bajer and Associates. On today's show Aga shared her journey from founding and leading an ice cream company to consulting to now becoming the CEO of culture brands and the host of the very, very well known podcast the culture lab, we deep dived into a range of topics such as her podcasting journey, our love and affection for learning and books, with Aga, dropping the names of some of her favorite books throughout and how she reads approximately 50 books per year. We also discussed Aga's thoughts on the areas which leaders and organizations should concentrate on first, when looking to embark on large scale change. We then talked about the three pillars into a thriving culture, which is based on all of Aga's research, and she's landed on these pillars being fun, meaning and belonging. This means that if you get these right, then you're gonna go a long way to see the long lasting improvements in your corporate culture. We also touched on how to deal with that brilliant jerk that you see in a lot of teams. And we deep dive into some of the statistics on the returns on investment, if you decide to invest in your organization's culture, and how then actually to manage the culture transformation that you're about to embark on. We talked about so much more and it was an absolute pleasure talking with Aga and I know you're absolutely going to love this chat. If you'd like to check out our profile, you can find it at Aga Bajer on LinkedIn. That's AGA, BAJER on LinkedIn and definitely check out her podcast culture labs on Spotify and Apple podcast. Feel free to connect with me to where you can find me at Daniel Franco on LinkedIn. If you'd like to learn more about some of the other amazing people and leaders that we've had on the creating synergy podcast then be sure to jump on our website at Synergy iq.com.au Or check us out at the creating synergy podcast on all the podcast outlets. Cheers. So welcome back to the creative synergy podcast. My name is Daniel Franco and today from all the way from grace. In Europe, we have Aga Bajer on the show. Welcome to the show.

Aga Bajer 3:41
Hey, Daniel, so good to be here with you today.

Daniel Franco 3:44
Thank you so much, I must admit and I must confess I was a little bit nervous when I first asked you to come on the podcast. I'm a big fan for those in Australia who are listening in they and they may not know is has her own podcast that is very, very successful. She's had people like Simon Sinek, Francis Frey, Seth Godin, and Katarina Berg who is the head of people in of culture of Spotify on the show. So you've had some, not to mention so many more 70 others. You're doing amazing work and your podcasts culture Labs is, is a brilliant podcast. So kudos to you.

Aga Bajer 4:27
Thank you. It's you know, so nice to hear that from a fellow podcaster. And I love your show. It's obviously a huge compliment. And yeah, it's true. I've been kind of lucky to have really amazing guests on the podcast. And frankly, you know, when I look at the list of our previous guests, I couldn't believe it myself. So here we go.

Daniel Franco 4:51
But you must be very proud headed headed. Like we'll start off with the pocket. How did it all come about? How did you I mean, you are a specialist in strategy and culture. cultural strategy. So obviously culture labs seems like the right option to talk about culture because you are a specialist but but how did the podcast come about? And how did it grow to the point where you're getting these world renowned people? I mean, I could use some tips.

Aga Bajer 5:19
Well, I have, I think I might have one good tip for you. So we can we can go there. But okay, so let me let me start with how, how are you know, where is the beginning how it all started? So, you know, I had a large chunk of my career was with large consultancies, and then eventually, I decided to strike out on my own and I started a boutique culture consultancy. And a part of creating the podcast was really thinking what would be the best marketing channels to get our message out there in a way that is in the spirit of serving and offering offering something of value, rather than just to yelling at people, you know, look at as we are here, and we do amazing work. And to be honest, for me, it was quite challenging. Because I'm an introvert by nature, I feel most comfortable in one to one conversations, I hate talking about myself. So I decided to zoom out a little bit and think about what are the situations that I feel most comfortable in? And what are the things that really energize me. And I realized that since I was a kid, I really loved deep conversations, preferably with one person, just like sitting with a friend, you know, and, and really talking about life and stuff like that. And so I thought, Here you go, this is what I, I've always liked doing. And there are so many interesting people in this space that I would love to speak to. So this is how I came up with this idea. And I think, you know, an additional factor was that I love podcasts and listening to podcasts myself. So it really seemed like a no brainer, from the point of view of this is probably the right thing to do. But of course, as you know, yourself, from this decision point to actually having a show that works. There's it's a long journey. So I'm not going to go into details. But definitely, you know, it takes some time, and it takes some thinking around how you want to do it. What's your, what's your ideal listener? And how you can serve them best and all that sort of stuff.

Daniel Franco 7:31
It's so interesting, because I think we're about 70 episodes in and only asking those questions. Now I was, I was very much of the of the approach. Like you, I just like talking to people, I like asking questions. I'm a pretty curious type of person. I seek mentors and coaches on a daily basis, I'm always looking to pick the brains of someone who's been more successful or done more in it from from a business point of view, and a life point of view almost on a daily basis. So what a better way then to start a podcast and ask questions and learn and learn more.

Aga Bajer 8:06
So yeah, exactly and as you know, you know, it turns out to so I, you know, I've been very honest around saying this, you know, probably the main reason was really how can we start speaking to an audience that we are interested in serving. But the outcome of that has been an incredible journey for me, an incredible learning journey. So I'm definitely way richer, and hopefully wiser, you know, after having spoken to more than 100 guests now. All of them really incredible people. So as you know, yourself, it's an incredibly enriching process.

Daniel Franco 8:45
Absolutely. I'm interested in your approach to each podcast and we won't we won't dive on I will stick on the podcast for a little bit because I just want to learn from you. So, your approach, the way your approach the wage podcast, are you meticulous in your in your research, I get so caught up with what questions I'm going to ask how I'm going to go about the conversation, what is the order of the conversation might go to and then I might write down 15 to 20 odd questions that I have. And then every single time I asked maybe three or four conversations saying yeah, okay, good. So I'm not I'm not the only one going crazy.

Aga Bajer 9:30
I don't think you no, unless it's only the two of us. But exactly the same thing. I think I'm maybe maybe I'm slightly more relaxed on the research right now. But at the beginning, you know, if I would interview an author, I would literally read all his or hers books and and watch all the interviews and listen to all the podcasts so it would take forever. Now I also have a team so I have a person who is doing research now we say, you know, spent half an hour doing research on this person so that we can find some information about their personal life and something interesting and something that will surprise them when when I mentioned that, because they wouldn't even know that that information was available or that they would know that and we can make it a little bit more personal. But back to your point, yes, I do write out questions. And then I don't that I don't use them very often. What I do like doing and I think, you know, if I were to strip it down to the bare basics, we do a pre interview conversation. And these are extremely useful, because what I ask our guests is, what is it that you are really passionate about? And what are the key messages that you would like to see that out in the world, so that I can help you and guide you in the conversation to get these messages out there. And we also tried to construct like an arc to the conversation. Because I think that it's important to take a listener on a journey, where you know, there is a beginning, they get to know the person, and they get to like them at the very beginning of an interview. Because I do know that people will drop off after a few minutes, if there is no connection with our guests. And then it's really about making sure that we build after something, some sort of climax, and then have a little portion of drawing conclusions, wrapping everything up. So that has worked really well for us. And also, you know, from the point of view of connecting with the other person, I think it's much easier to have a conversation when you're actually recording when you have already met them. And you kind of created that relationship. It sounds more natural. And one thing also that that I want to share is the best interviews that I've ever had, were the interviews where the guests had no idea what specific questions I was going to ask. And we really took it in a very relaxed way. So you know, it was just a chat, like having coffee and chatting about interesting, and a lot of humor, and a lot of laughter So these are our blockbusters when people laugh, and when it's light when when there's levity. These are, the episode says people love most.

Daniel Franco 12:26
Absolutely, yeah, if there's one thing I definitely not good at, it's being serious. So hopefully, we'll have a few laughs throughout the show. How nervous were you when you were interviewing the Simon Sineks? And the Francis Freys? And the Seth Godins. I mean, these people look, I don't know if you can see right behind my ear, there, there's unleashed, which is Francis Francis Frey's book, you know, and then, and then start with why's behind, I got a lot of Seth Godin's books. I'm a big reader, as you can see, I get nervous before every episode, but yet some of these world renowned people, how did you? How did you manage your nerves in that situation?

Aga Bajer 13:03
You know, so this is a very interesting thing, because on a scale from one to 10, if I were to say, you know, I was on this scale, where one is not nervous at all, and 10 is like I'm falling apart, and I just can't articulate a sentence. It's interesting, because when I finally got to interview these people, I guess I was probably a five, maybe even a four. And when I was interviewing my very first guest, who perhaps wasn't that famous, I think I was a nine, or maybe even a 10. So I was literally like sweating and shaking, and it was terrible. And actually, you can listen to it because I do have the first episodes still there in the archive. And you can hear it like you can hear it. I'm a nervous wreck. And the interview is pretty terrible. So I think the lesson here is that, you know, the good news is we can learn anything, and one of the things we can learn is also to trust ourselves and the process and trust the guests as well. So I have plenty of trusts, especially when it comes to people like Seth Godin, or, Simon Sinek, you know that, of course, they will be amazing. And basically, my job is not to get in their way and let them be their amazing self. That's, that's the best thing I can do. And so that puts very little pressure on me. So I think the nerves kind of calm down. You always feel butterflies in the stomach, obviously. But I think the more capable and famous the guest is, the more I can rely on them to really drive the show. And so I feel like I can relax.

Daniel Franco 14:45
Yeah, it's funny because I go back and listen, and you see the numbers of your podcasts even back to number one, you see them still go up. Please don't judge me.

Aga Bajer 14:59
exactly how I feel like if someone has just listened to the first episode, this is terrible.

Daniel Franco 15:06
Don't listen to that. Listen to episode number 100. Yeah, that's much better. Totally. Very good. One thing that is, and you mentioned it earlier, one thing that is such a benefit from coming out of podcasting, and anyone that wants to get into into podcasting, I believe one of the biggest benefits for me has been is the element of research in like you said, if you've had an author on the show, you go and read all their books, and you go and download all their content. So the learning is just huge, right? Like, there's so much learning to be had. And, and so naturally, that it's almost forced learning and and it's and but for me, I love it. But it, it's it, that's probably the best thing that's happened to me out of the podcast is that I feel like my knowledge, my knowledge on so many different topics is just grown. You know, I absolutely enjoy the learning side of things. But the forced learning has been, I think, the most or will the number one main benefit purely because I'm learning so many different things about so many different topics. And it's just, it's amazing how much and how much I didn't know I believe, before I had some of these amazing guests. Yeah, talk about diversity, talk about inclusion, you talk about environmental factors, you talk about all these different social matters and constructs that I'm now learning is just added to my repertoire. And I believe I've become a better conversationalist. Because of it.

Aga Bajer 16:39
Absolutely, yes, it's, it's the same with me. So I, my friends asked me, How do you have time to read so much? Because I think I've read at least 50 books per year, maybe even more predominantly because of the podcast? And the answer is, I just have to, you know, I have no choice. So like, I have to interview this person. So I really need to do to read the book. And as you say, you know, it, it really helps to learn new stuff, it really helps to open new horizons. So Oh, definitely recommend that people, you know, if if they feel drawn to this, I know that now everyone says everyone has a podcast, and maybe there are too many podcasts. But but it has been incredibly enriching experience for me as well.

Daniel Franco 17:26
Well, one of the one of the main podcasters in the world, Tim Ferriss, I'm sure you would have heard him. He says, He still believes that it's early on, in the year of podcasts, he thinks, he thinks is only going to go further. And then boom, even more so. Interesting, interesting standpoint. I want to I'd love to just go back and just talk about your career, you mentioned that you used to work for a lot of consulting companies, and then decided to jump out into the world and start your own business. Can you tell us a little bit about your background? And how you became to be a culture expert and the world renowned podcast host?

Aga Bajer 18:08
Yeah, well, I think probably, I would rewind to my early 20s, just to give a little bit of context. So when I was when I was just about to graduate, I had this friend Walker, and he, he had an entrepreneurial, mind and spirit since he was a kid. So like, you would literally take his mom's jewelry that she wouldn't be wearing and sell it to girls, that's cool, and then use this money to buy something else. And he would be doing it all the time. And how was this, you know, this person who would read books, and would dream of writing a book herself one day, so we're completely different. But at the same time, I think what brought us together was the spirit of adventure. And so, and he was a couple of years younger than me. And so I remember one day, he was really trying, she was insisting that we should go into business together. And I'm like, I really don't see that. Like, I'm not a business person. I want to focus on writing, journalism perhaps and stuff like that. And he would insist insist insist, and I remember, you know, we were just basically it was a joke. I said, Hey, listen, if you can come up with a business that will make me happy and other people happy then maybe we can have this conversation again. And he's like the what would make you happy? I said as much ice cream as I can eat? You know, do a dumb question. And so fast forward a few years. What he does is he create this ice cream manufacturing factory with another partner. And he says here we go, you know, we have this business and now you have to join us because we we want to start exporting and you know, you know languages, so we need a person who can help us with. So I eventually joined as one of the co founders of this company. And fast forward a few years, it became one of the biggest ice cream manufacturers in the central, eastern Europe. So it was a huge success, it grew really fast. And we were all really young, really inexperienced. Now, mind you, this is 1990, in the post communist Poland, so it's like, everything is like the Wild West, basically, we have no idea how to how to run the business, we have no idea how to manage people, we just improvise all the time. And so after a couple of years.

Daniel Franco 20:47
I still feel like that today.

Aga Bajer 20:48
Yeah, it's true, right? Because things are changing all the time. And we're always kind of navigating this, uncharted territory in one way or another. But you know, the first few years for me being in that company, it was just a blur. I just didn't know what happened. But then when I finally found an opportunity to kind of step back and reflect, I realized a few things. One was, I wasn't happy. So you know, the promise, initial promise of we're going to go into business together. And you know, if it can make me and other people happy. That didn't happen. What was worse, I felt like we were not making others happy, either. Because, you know, just looking around at our employees and the people who are working in the factory, but also people who are the executives in the company, everyone was incredibly stressed, burnt out, with no sense of meaning or direction. And it's really felt like why are we really doing this? Is it just for the money? Or is there any other reason? And so I thought, Okay, this is, you know, I'm either going to leave, or we're going to change things. And I thought, you know, I'm not a quitter, and it can be a better quality. So I decided to push through and make things better in that company. So I started reading, reading about, you know, what, what motivates people? What creates a good working environment for people? How can we create a workplace where people will not go, Oh, my God, I have to go to work again. But they will feel like, let's see what happens at work today, you know, and I guess it might be fun. So it started is really this way, just trying to fix our business. And the more I read, the more I realized how much I didn't know. And it was clear to me pretty fast, that that I need to spend way more time and go deeper and broader on this, to learn more and more. And so I started eventually, Strategic Human Resources Management, that was my, my masters. And then I really went down that rabbit hole of management and leadership and culture. I joined a group which back then was a very, very famous HR consultancy with partners like Dan Goleman, the founder of emotional intelligence, and other incredible people like McClelland, the psychologist was, was one of the people who shaped that company. It was one of you know, one of those companies, when you have a passion for something that you're like, I would work for them for free, can I please work for you so that they can learn from you that was how I started working for Hay group, which is now Conferee, by the way it was acquired. And that's how my Korean consulting started. So, you know, long story short, the reason really was I wanted to fix something that was very disappointing at a personal level, and also in terms of the responsibility I felt towards our employees. And so I left the company, I left the ice cream manufacturing company, and I became a consultant. And that was the majority of my career up until the point where it felt Do you know what, I don't know if I want to be managing teams of consultants, and rarely get to do the actual work? Because this is what you end up doing when you are in a company like Price Waterhouse Coopers you know, when when you are head of consulting, people consulting, you end up selling projects, and then disappearing and selling more projects so that your team has work. And that's a business model that works perfectly for these companies. But at an individual level, it's, you know, it's fulfilling because you get to coach your team and so on. So For, but I realized that I didn't get enough of the hits that you get from doing the work that really fulfills you. And so I decided to step out. And I decided to create my own business, delightfully small by design, where, you know, and set up in a way that still allows me to do the deep work of supporting a client's to create an environment where people can do their best work. And that was the biggest gift I guess, that I have ever given myself. Really that gift of of being able to refocus on what's important.

And yeah, and the podcasts and other things that that I've been doing, the book that I've written, and so on, so forth is part of that thinking of, you know, I want to go deeper, I want to go back to the why. So why have I started this, and the sort of work that lights you up, and that makes you go, I really can't wait to wake up tomorrow and start all over again.

Daniel Franco 26:10
It's such an amazing story. Thank you for sharing. I'm a big lover of ice cream. So that brought a smile, straight to my face. And it isn't it isn't it? Isn't it funny that when you're in the trenches, and you're learning and the scrounging for information on how to improve it, I think that from a learning point of view, it's, it's unbelievable, and not something that I believe enough leaders to themselves that the simple fact that you reach for, for some books and, and tried to educate yourself on how to make a better business or how to create a better culture for your business. I mean, that's, that's in itself. It's from a self awareness point of view that that's an amazing thing. And it's something that I think really got me moving out into the world of consulting as well was the simple fact that I'm so passionate about improving and being stagnated in a position where I couldn't prove improve was one that was one that kind of held me back. So the idea of managing my own business and continually improving and putting time and effort into my growth and development whilst trying to give back and add value to the world was something that was really appealing. I want to I want to touch on a few things that you said through there. And one of the things that you mentioned was, how do you create a culture where people want to come to work every single day? And I think that's something that, you know, we work with a lot of businesses, as we are specialists in culture as well. I mean, this is part of the reason why I'm a big fan of yours. I followed your work for some quite some time. What are what is some of the things that businesses can work out for the leaders that are listening? What are some of the things that they can implement almost as low hanging fruit to improve the culture of their business? Where would you start?

Aga Bajer 28:13
Well, so you know, always like, like, always with these questions. The only realistic answer can be independence, right. So I'm sorry to disappoint. But unfortunately, there's no recipe that would be would work for everyone, because it really depends which stage your business is at, and where you are in your culture journey and stuff like that. But

Daniel Franco 28:37
the same answer we give

Aga Bajer 28:40
people know that the answer is going to be by the way, it depends. But still, we asked this question, I think in search of clarity, is such a deep human need to have a little bit more clarity and like no, yes. But if there's only one thing that is the most important thing, like what is this thing, and I actually had a conversation with a potential client. And we talked about, you know, I had really interesting insight into their business, because I'm also one of their clients. And so I was showing some feedback. And then he was like, so if there was just one thing that we can do to improve our culture, what is it? So I hear this a lot. And so let me give you, I'm going to cheat, I'm going to say maybe two or three things. So I think,

Daniel Franco 29:23
yeah, I actually had I actually the question I wrote down is, what are the three things but I asked for the one. Let's go, let's get on

Aga Bajer 29:30
with it. Three, three. So I mean, you know, it depends, obviously, if you have already done this work or not, but generally, you know, the first milestone I would say is, do you even know? What is the culture that you want to create? And do you even know what kind of culture is going to be the culture that helps the people to do the best work of their careers? And also, what is the kind of culture I'm just going to help you execute on your strategy. Because culture is not just, you know, something for the culture sake or to make people happy, it is supposed to help you to be successful as a business. And ideally, it's going to do that by making people feel energized, fulfilled, happy at work, and so on, and so forth. So, some organizations have done a little bit of work around that. And they have like a culture manifesto with core values, and sometimes other elements like purpose or mission. So this is really important. This is an important foundation. And often when I talk with founders, leaders or teams in these organizations, I say, how, how aligned is this, this thing that you have created with your real business and with the business needs, and also with a persona of your ideal employee. Because when you look at what you have on paper, and what your business needs, and what your people need, sometimes these two things don't necessarily connect, or your values and other elements of your culture manifesto. So the things that you aspire to, are too generic. And for me, these things need to be an enabler and enabler of great work and an enabler of strategy. And they also needs to be a differentiator. So having a value like teamwork, let's say, right? I don't know. I mean, I see so many companies that have these things. And my question is, is it? Like, you know, Elias has to play basically, because I really can't think of a company these days that doesn't need teamwork, right? Who doesn't like this is just just something that is absolutely fundamental. But an interesting question is, what makes you different? What is this unique, authentic cultural DNA that has enabled you to be successful up until this point? And what will help you to get from here to there? So like, if you have growth plans, what are those things that ways of working, that will take you from here to there? So this is the first element that I would look at? Do we really even know what kind of culture we need? And we want to have? And, you know, there are many, many different ways.

Daniel Franco 32:30
Can I? Can I jump in there? When you ask that question? Do we even know? What is? What does an ideal culture look like? I don't know. The answer again, is it depends. But if if a leader was to paint a picture, a visual picture on what is the ideal culture? Is it what are the some things they should be ticking off is how the people are feeling is the systems and processes in place that are working? It's what people say, when they walk in every morning? Is it the type of Office that we work in? Like what what should they be picturing? When they ask the question, what type of culture do we want?

Aga Bajer 33:10
Yeah. So you know, I don't know if your listeners are familiar with with this model. So I'm really quickly going to throw it in for context. So when we think of culture, imagine, you know this thing like an iceberg, right, there is a small thing that you can see above the surface of water. And then there is a bunch of important stuff that is underneath that of her waterline. So when leaders imagine what culture looks like, they usually only think about the tip of the iceberg. And the tip of the iceberg tends to be behaviors at work. And I'm not saying that this is wrong, because this is exactly the only thing that you can actually see on the surface, you see how people behave and interact. And so one of the most important things is to identify what are behaviors that that we know are going to help us be successful. And what I see happens in many organizations, is they will have stuff on paper or some idea of what our values are the values that we want to guide us. But it's not entirely clear, how we want to interact, how we want to collaborate, how we want to behave, you know, and what, what does that look for each role in this organization? How can we make it granular enough to make it tangible for people? And then of course, you have the systemic aspect and that is visible on the surface as well. So let's say if you want an innovative organization, of course, you know, your systems, and processes and practices need to be the right container for innovation to emerge organic clay. And a quick example that that I might give is, you know, if you if your performance management system is this old school force distribution, where only 10% of people can get high performer, right, and then you have the middle part. And then there is a small percentage of people that will get fired because they are not performing. And basically, if you have a team of 10 people, even if they're all stars, you still need to distribute them on this curve, high performer, someone in the middle and then low performers, that what impact does it have? And this has really helped you to be innovative? Well, the answer is probably not. Because it creates a very competitive environment where people are basically trying to, you know, win brownie points for what they are doing to get the highest valuation. And so they don't collaborate, it doesn't feel safe to come up with dumb ideas, it doesn't feel safe to make mistakes. So this sort of system is not really helping you to cultivate a culture of innovation. And a lot of companies have legacy systems like this one, that are in direct conflict with the culture that they would like to have, ideally. So that's another part, you know, if you know what your desired culture looks like, in terms of behaviors, predominantly. And you know, if you want to think about this in a sort of easy graphic way, think like a camera, almost, you know, and camera is filming people at work. And the question is, what do you see people do? How do you see people behave? Or when this happens? What is an ideal reaction? So for example, when a customer makes a complaint, what would you like? How would you like your people to react to that? One way is, you are not this is not true. This is not what happened. And I did have this experience, actually, with a company recently, when I said we have this problem. And they're like, this is impossible, because we worked with this property for 10 years, and we've never had this problem. Like, okay. Yeah, this is lying

to you. So this is not a sort of behavior that I want to see. So So you know, think of it like almost walking with a camera that records both, both audio and video, and what would you like to see on the visible surface? And then really challenge your systems, practices and processes against that lens of is it supporting us in creating that sort of culture? Or is it hindering us? Is it stopping us from from being able for these cultural qualities to come to life? So I would say these are two important elements. And then finally, you know, one, one last thing that I would like to add to, for what are the low hanging fruits are easier ways of evolving your culture, and creating a culture that that helps your business and your people is think of cultural evolution or change as a movement, it's, it definitely cannot be a mandate. And I work a lot with startups scale arm, so companies that are on this high growth trajectory. And one of the habits that founders like us tends to carry into the next stage of growth is like, it's, it's my vision, it's my baby, I need to be sort of leading the way when it comes to values when it comes to behaviors when it comes to some important principles. But it's true, obviously. But also, people are not going to behave a certain way in your organization, because you say so. So I think it's really important to kind of recognize that that's truth of life, right? Even if you do those things. So Daniel, even if you would never say to your clients, this is impossible, because we've never had this case in our company, it still doesn't mean that your customer service person is going to embrace the right behavior, which might be asking more questions, and really being focused on generating a solution for your client. The only person that can help your customer service employee to embrace the right behaviors is the colleague that they interact most with. So this is what I mean by culture is a movement, not a mandate. So what you want to be able to do is to identify informal influences within your organization. Who are the people who have the social capital, who are the people who your employees go for advice to or trust them? or people who they respect because of their expertise. And these are going to be the people that you want to activate and energize around these specific behaviors. Because whatever others see them do, they will probably start copying it. Lee Leandro Herrero, one of the incredible people in this movement of viral change, he said, we are humble immittance, which means that, you know, we look around, we look at people around us. And we we adopt the norms that we see around us. So, to me, it's really quite interesting to turn things on their heads, especially when you're a leader, especially when you are found and asking yourself, How can I make it more into a movement, this whole culture scaling or shaping thing and initiative, whatever you want to call it, and make it into a movement rather than something that I tried to be driving myself?

Daniel Franco 40:59
Oh, absolutely love that. So much to unpack. I do like the idea of, of the movement, we often refer to, you know, cultural, the Cultural Revolution as an ecosystem, it sort of just keeps spinning in intermixing. And it's not something that you can fix one thing, and then then all of a sudden, you've got a better culture. It is, it's so much more than that. But the idea of working,

Aga Bajer 41:30
yeah, sorry, can I can I? Sorry, let me just quickly jump in, I'm sorry for for interrupting you that I agree that there is no one thing that you can fix, and suddenly your culture is going to be great. But one thing that I've noticed, and that was kind of a lightbulb moment, for me in my culture work is that there are Keystone changes that you can make, that will sort of pave the way to other positive changes in your culture. And so there are certain things without which you will never have a healthy culture. And that's, that's something important probably to keep in mind. In, you know,

Daniel Franco 42:13
what are the what are those? What are those things?

Aga Bajer 42:15
So I've done a lot of research so that others don't have to, because there's so much confusion around this, right? So I'm pretty happy with what I have landed on, because I've tested it with a lot of organizations, and also cross reference with decades and decades and decades of academic research. So I feel like there are three pillars to thriving cultures without which it's impossible, really to create a healthy environment. So the first one is fun. And when I talk about fun, it's not it's not table tennis. It's not beanbags, obviously, or you know, keg parties, or whatever. I talk about the fulfillment that people can get from work itself. So like, is it you know, do you experience friction, most of the time, or do experience flow, at least some of the time, and the less friction you have in your work. In other words, the easier and the more fun it is to be doing your job, the healthier the culture is going to be. So for me, a huge part of creating a healthy culture is focusing on what creates unnecessary friction for people and removing that. So fun is one of the first elements. And of course, you know, humor is an important element of fun as well, and levity. So there are sub elements to that. But but you know, the the umbrella term that I use as fun, then there is meaning human beings have this intrinsic need to feel like they are part of something larger than themselves and making an important contribution to something that is meaningful to them. And often people just miss this line of sight, and they don't understand how their work is contributing to something meaningful, or perhaps it's not, in some cases. And so I think for organization is really important to reflect and, and ask themselves, why are we here? And how do we make this world a better place for everyone? And how can our team members connect to that and and see their own contributions to this thing. And third element is belonging. So it's really about who do I get to be at work, and great companies and great cultures, cultivate an environment where it's okay to be you when you get into the inner circle. So like, we don't accept jerks into the inner circle, so it's not like you can be yourself and be a jerk in the inner circle. So of course, yes, there are on certain conditions of what it means to be a part of this team, but when you get into the inner circle of an organization, you can be you. And you get the sense that you can contribute, that you can challenge the status quo, that you are absolutely allowed to think differently. And yet, in spite of all that, you are a really integral part of the team. And you know, that this is your, this is your tribe, and these are your people, and you can rely on them, and they have your back. So, these three elements, I feel are super important, you know, so it's not like a recipe, it's not a silver bullet, because of course, there's so much to each of them. But that's what my experience has, has shown that without these three, whatever you do, you know, it's a little bit like three legged stool. If one leg is not, is not strong enough, it will be wobbly. And I think for the listeners who are listening to our conversation, one question that you can ask yourself is, which is our strongest leg? So like, what is what is? Is it fun? Is it meaning is it belonging, or you know, that you are pretty good at, and which are the wobbly parts, and I would definitely make sure that we strengthen the strong part, but also address the parts that are wobbly because otherwise, you know, you'll never be able to create that environment that we talked about. One where people can do their best work. And I'm so sorry about?

Daniel Franco 46:32
No, don't sorry, never be sorry for cutting me off, you've got much better things to say than me if they're fun. So fun, meaning and belonging. Amazing. three pillars that you've just referred to, I want to pick on the fun one. And the fun place over here picking on the fun, if you if you talk about removing friction as part of the fun element, and what if what is the friction that we need to remove? In order for people to enjoy the work that they're doing?

Aga Bajer 47:08
These days? Yeah,

Daniel Franco 47:10
I just I just want to ask the question leaders in their own right and not equipped these days to do that. They're not equipped to remove the friction in their own lives, let alone the expectation that they're going to be able to do it for others. And not to mention, if you talk about leadership from the top, whether it be C suite or whatnot, there's expectations that you're delivering outcomes, right. So to create fun and remove friction, whilst not delivering on outcomes can be, you know, a cocktail that no one knows how to create? is there advice that you can provide for the leaders who are struggling to remove those obstacles and remove the friction for the people in their team?

Aga Bajer 47:58
Yes, I mean, I'm not, you know, I don't know if this advice is going to be relevant to everyone. But but there is a principle, I guess, maybe not advice that I would share with leaders. And the principle is, it's not about you. So try, try to remember that, right?

Daniel Franco 48:16
I say that to my kids every single day.

Aga Bajer 48:18
And so, you know, that means a lot of things, one of the things that it can mean is that actually, you might not be the person who needs to remove friction, or all of the friction of the time. I think that there are certain frictions in companies and in organizations that only senior leaders can remove, because simply have that decision making power. And I'm speaking particularly about traditional hierarchical organizations, because obviously, there are organizations that are self managed and holacracy, using holacracy, and all that stuff. But in traditional organizations, yes, you you might be the person who has the decision power that others don't have. But in my experience, the only way to know how to remove friction that teams are experiencing in their daily life is to, to ask them and and give them a process that they can use internally within the team to keep asking this question, like what is preventing us from being as as effective as we can be? And you've mentioned this word outcomes. And I think this is a really important word to be using, but also really important focus to have in mind. I think what leaders often do is they talk about goals, not outcomes. So they set KPIs they set goals and they tell people that these things need to be achieved. And hold on quite It's tightly and rigidly to those things. So for me one, one of the strategies to remove friction is to focus more on the outcomes. And let the teams decide how to get there. So loosen the grip a little bit. So you know, and trust your people be good at hiring. So hire the right people, the people that you can trust that have the capabilities and the mindset and the attitudes to do the right thing. Or train them

Daniel Franco 50:30
Jim Collins, number one, get the right people.

Aga Bajer 50:36
Absolutely. And, you know, it's, we talk about it all the time. And yet, I can see this in my own business, I've made hiring mistakes, and probably I will keep making, right, because it happens. But the thing is, you know, you get better with time. And I think we can do a lot of things to really improve this process to be sure that the people that we bring on board are better and better. And it's a little bit of a chicken and egg problem, of course, because to get great talent, you have to have great culture. People have higher expectations these days from what their work experience is going to be like. And so if you have bad reputation in the market, when it comes to your culture, it is going to be challenging to have the right people on the bus. So So yeah, so it is important to be working on culture, it is important to show this commitment, not by talking about is by taking action. But back to your friction question and outcomes question. So yes, I would say you know, trust your people, that they will know, what stops them from being able to bring the outcomes that you have set out. But you know, not necessarily the goals that that that you've said, because we live in really times of exponential change. So whatever was true last month, in your business, I'm sure Daniel is probably not true this month, because things have changed, right? And so we will want HR teams, but how can they be agile, if they are still working towards the goals that we've set, you know, in 2021. So So, for me, it's more about figuring out what is going to be the way we approach generating the outcomes that we want to have. And give people the freedom to think figure out the best way to get them a very tangible example just to bring it to life. A part of our business is a community, a community for culture, leaders. And so of course, you know, I could set a goal for our team in terms of growth and say, Hey, guys, we want 100 members this year, extra 100 members this year. But is this really the right goal, or perhaps I should be talking about purposeful growth and member success experience, and what that looks like, and then let my team decide how they're going to accomplish that. Because maybe it's not 100, maybe it's 1000, or on the country, maybe it's just 50 members, but in a completely different model. And that might be in our with higher fees, it might still be very profitable for our business, but at the same time generate more member success and more engagement on the platform. So to be able to do that, I need to admit to myself that I don't have all the answers and and just give that vision of success. What's what our strategy is, which in our case is purposeful growth, member success and member engagement and let my team figure out what will be the best way to accomplish that. We have a conversation. And then we run with that. We experiment, we get feedback from reality, and of course correct as me that

Daniel Franco 53:57
yeah, I find I always come back to the mean, it's a famous Steve Jobs quote, where don't hire great people and tell them what to do. Right? And hire great people and get them to tell you what to do. I think as a leader, it's fundamental to the success of of the business and I think your own sanity, right? I think if you if you if you're gonna be controlling in every single thing and micromanagement for your people, that's only going to eat away at your own. It's, it's taking on more than you can, you know, biting off more than you can chew. And there's an element for me that I'm almost too lazy to take on everyone else's worries and needs. This doesn't make any sense to me. So, you know, one thing that we definitely do in our business is, is the empowerment of of the roads. We, we've hired you and it's our expectation that you're going to take this and you're going to own it, you're going to you're going to level it up and that Yeah. And so one thing that I was going to ask you in amongst all that, is that one problem that we do see companies face time and time again, and you would see this on a daily basis is the is the technical jerk or the brilliant jerk? Or it's that person who is so great at their job creating many issues culturally within the team, you know? And then the behavior gets accepted purely because they're delivering those outcomes, right? And so what what's your advice to leaders in that situation? Where they've come up with they have someone who is that brilliant jerk in their team? And how would you manage that situation?

Aga Bajer 55:53
So I'm probably not going to surprise you with my answer, I, I fully embrace, you know, what, what someone has said, and it has been attributed to many different people, including at shine that your culture is becomes what you are willing to tolerate. So if you want everyone to behave like this jerk, then just tolerate this behavior. If you don't want your whole organization to become this than I think, you know, step number one, address it with this person, and be super clear that the way they behave the way they collaborate with others. So the how of the work, not the what of the work, but the how of the work that they're doing is absolutely misaligned, and not acceptable on this team. And talk to them about, you know, how they could embrace slightly different behaviors and be equally successful. So I'm all for giving people chances and coaching and making sure that we shed light on some of their blind spots. In my experience with brilliant jerks. They often, you know, they have bad habits that they have carried throughout their career. And they have never been confronted about these bad habits. So for me, part of being kind as an organization, and as a leader, is really giving them that feedback, that's probably they've never had, because people relied on their expertise so much that they never did to talk to them about stuff. And in my experience, a large chunk of this population that we label a brilliant jerk, they're actually willing to change they are willing to be successful is just that they don't know how, you know, so so. So definitely,

Daniel Franco 57:52
you don't know what you don't know. Right?

Aga Bajer 57:54
You don't know what you don't know. Exactly. And when everyone is telling you, you are amazing. This is brilliant, and the oh my god, your star. And that's the only feedback that you have ever received throughout your lifetime. I mean, it's only natural that you would have this blind spot. So yeah, so shed light on the blind spot, help them change, you know, I really love robot co guns, methodology around resistance to change, because these people often behave in a way they do, because they have what he calls conflicting commitments. So they are committed to delivering outstanding results. And because of that, they behave a certain way. So in their mind is like this algorithm. If I behave this way, I am going to get outstanding results. If I start behaving differently, if I become a softy or whatever, I will basically make some trade offs when it comes to outstanding results. And I'm not prepared to do that. So it's a kind of an algorithm that we need to help these people rewrite for themselves and have experiences where they see that this is a false assumption. And it doesn't necessarily have to be true. So you can still be nice to people and get fabulous numbers or amazing write amazing code or whatever it is that you are doing. So that would be for me. Step number one. So when I say don't tolerate, I don't say sack they want. But yeah, right. But if you have this conversation, and you really give them an opportunity to reflect and to grow and to develop and they keep doing what they were doing. So being a jerk, then you don't really have a lot of options. But say, You know what, I don't think that we can continue working together. Sorry about that. But we stride and it's not working out and we have to say goodbye and It's hard, but sometimes you have to do it.

Daniel Franco 1:00:02
Absolutely. Look, there's a there's a saying here that we use in Australia, and it's the standard that you walk past is the standard that you accept and love. And, yeah, it's definitely one that seems true. I want to quickly jump into culture and the return on investment from putting time and effort into the culture. I mean, this is something that I know you've spent a bit of time on and researched in. That it's something that's really difficult for business leaders to take the time to learn and understand is, if I'm going to invest in my culture, what is it? What is the investment? What does that investment look like? What returns am I going to see? Is there? Is there something that you work to when you work with leaders or something that sticks out to you that is the first point of the return.

Aga Bajer 1:00:56
So, you know, strictly strictly, academically speaking, with very rigorous thinking around how we can calculate return on investment, on culture, it is very difficult, because there are so many moving parts. So the thing is, you know, how do you isolate the impact of a specific action or investment that you have taken, because there are other elements as well, right, that the markets are shifting, you are not the same company, as you are a couple of years ago. So it's challenging, and a lot of incredibly successful and effective. Researchers have made efforts and did come up with some interesting numbers in spite of that. And what that tells me is that it is absolutely beyond any doubt that investing in your culture, not just intuitively, but also in a way that is measurable, it absolutely delivers more powerful results. So there's research that indicates that companies that invest in their culture, have 10 times higher engagement than their counterparts. And we all know that engaged employees produce better results, but to confirm that, Other research shows that companies that invest in the culture have up to sometimes hold on to your seat 1,000%, higher profitability 1,000%. So it's like, if an investor is listening to this, this is probably the best investment that you can make in the company that you have invested to make sure that they do something about their culture, because when it comes to sustainable growth, that's probably the number one thing to invest in. Now, what we see in the current landscape is that there is still a lot of short term thinking, and you won't see that 1,000% increase in profitability in one year. So that's sometimes, right. So you see it all the time.

Daniel Franco 1:03:06
Oh, it's and can you change our culture in six months?

Aga Bajer 1:03:13
Yeah, exactly. Yeah,

Daniel Franco 1:03:15
we hear this every single day. Yeah.

Aga Bajer 1:03:17
So So you have to be in a you know, for the long haul. I have never seen an organization. Maybe you have Daniel. And so let's have a chat chat on this. I'm actually really curious because it might be just me. But I've never seen an organization that was focused on short term financial results, having a great unhealthy culture. Whether effective they were they profitable? Yes. Did they have a toxic culture? Yes. So I think unless there is this outlook, around, you know, I want this business to be around in 10 years from now, and I care about what shape this business is going to be in 10 years from now. Companies simply don't invest in culture. That's, that's what I see happen. How about you?

Daniel Franco 1:04:06
I have never No, you're right. If if if bottom line and returns to shareholders is the only thing that the directors or the the C suite are looking to do, then generally you see that toxic culture trickle down, it becomes a competitive environment where everyone's out for their own and just trying to get results on the board. And yeah, and yeah, it it breeds. It breeds a very toxic environment. I think one one thing for me though, if you if you talk about those 10 times returns and the 1,000% Right, there's there's a lot of people who, who believe they know how to improve culture, right. So so you can, you know, and so I mean, you would have seen it time and time again that there are businesses out there and organizations As in leaders out there who are reluctant to get help with the improvement to improve their culture, because they have received poor advice previously, and they didn't see those returns. So what I mean, how do we work with companies who a don't know really how to improve the culture, and not that they have the capability or capacity to do so but yet have been burned? When they have, when they have tried it with other consulting firms, and we know some big consulting firms that, that go in and have their own methodologies and for some leaders that works, well, they take it on and and they improve and, and then but for others who have this expectation that the consulting company is going to do it all. It might not work. Yeah. What's your suggestion to those in that in that in that area?

Aga Bajer 1:05:50
So I'm going to answer your question, from a perspective, that perspective, all of our listeners, and kind of, you know, get into your shoes, I'm imagining, you know, if you're running a business, and have been burned by consulting companies, how, you know, what should you be expecting from someone that potentially is more credible, and more reliable in supporting you to do this work. So I would say the first thing to first is trust that there are people who know what they're doing, and look for them. Because there are There absolutely are people who know what they're doing, and reach out to them and have a conversation and see whether they are willing to listen to you. For me, it's the most important thing, you know, when you start a partnership with a third party that is going to help you around your culture, they are not there to sell you something, they are there to understand what is important for your business, what has been your cultural journey, what has worked, what hasn't worked, and if the person that you are speaking to is not willing to listen, that's the first red flag that this is not the right person to be talking to. And from the point of the consultant, again, we need to understand, right, what, what has happened, what is the legacy that what are the experiences that people have had, and why the transformation or change that they were trying to achieve failed. So that's, that's super important. And then, for me, you know, one of the elements of the right collaboration that is to, and how you can understand that this might be the right partner for you is to find an organization, a company, a consulting company, or an individual who understands that you will never be able to rely on them forever. So their philosophy is really to build internal capability to be independent of a third party eventually, because that's the only way you can achieve success with culture. Culture is one of those things that you know, there's there's never the so you never arrive. It's not like, yeah, we have a fantastic culture, we're done. Now that project is finished. And let's celebrate constant

Daniel Franco 1:08:19
it's constant work, constant work, and

Aga Bajer 1:08:21
the most credible people to do this work and capable people to do this work, they need to be within your organization. So in culture brains, what we do is we recruit a culture squad from within the client organization. And the way we do it is we use organizational network analysis, where we find the informal influences these people that I mentioned before with social capital, who have the you know, the informal power to move things because people respect them, people trust them, people have strong relationships with them. And we work with them to drive cultural change from within, rather than saying, we are superheroes, and we will fix their culture, and it will be done forever, because this simply doesn't work.

Daniel Franco 1:09:14
So culture brains is the community that you were talking about before, isn't it? It's the

Aga Bajer 1:09:19
Culture brain is the community. And it's also it's also our business. So we've recently sort of merged a couple of businesses into one under the umbrella of culture brains. So we have culture brains, the consultancy and culture brains, the community,

Daniel Franco 1:09:35
really and I want to ask the question, and this is this is from one cultural, one culture, consulting firm to another culture of business, cultural consulting business. Do you get frustrated with the simple fact that you only ever get asked to do work from great companies? I mean, because and I'll say that in the sense of that those leaders who are willing to work on their culture are so much forward more forward thinking than those with toxic cultures, those with toxic cultures want the control, they want things to keep going the way that they're going, because they they're earning, they're good. They you know, their earnings, some of their good pay packages, and the moment they start trying to improve the culture, then all of a sudden things are gonna unravel for them. So is that something that you face? Yes. And look, for me, it's, it works quite well, because we're always working with great people. But it when you when you join, and when you start a business, you start with the idea that you really want to help those people who are in those toxic cultures, but yet you never get to you do you do your thoughts on?

Aga Bajer 1:10:47
I think you do, but but you don't see it, you know, from from the vantage point of just sitting in your business helping these great companies. So to your question, do I? Do I face a similar situation? Absolutely. I think it speaks volumes. If a company reaches out to a culture consulting company, it already is a huge statement of we are ready to invest in our culture. And usually these are the companies who already walked the talk to a great extent. So 100% 100%, when I was working for larger consultancies, it was different. Because there were a lot of companies that even for compliance reasons in Europe, especially in the financial sector, it's one of their requirements now to be able to show that you've done something to improve your culture, especially around risk culture. And so it's a tick box exercise and huge consultancies, get hired with his crappy companies very often, and get projects of millions of dollars sometimes, but not much changes. So back to a question, yes, I faced the same, I don't feel frustrated, because I look at it slightly differently recently. So this is this has been one of my lightbulb moments as well. And it came from network science and understanding how networks work. So when I think about our mission, and it's both the mission of our community, but also the mission of our business, the culture brand consultancy, we want to make work synonymous with fun, meaning and belonging. And, obviously, this is something that we cannot do alone. So it requires a movement, it requires a large number of companies doing things to create that environment. And what I learned from network science is that when you want to change something, you don't go to the center of the existing network. So let's say these toxic companies that believe that, you know, this is the only way for them to make money or whatever. Because they are not very responsive to new ideas, what you need to do is to create a new network, so you build it out instead of building it into the old system. And so basically, I feel that you and I, Daniel and other companies, like our companies, the work that we're doing is building out this new network of progressive businesses who believe in thriving, building thriving cultures, and making it eventually with time to be the norm. So we are creating a new norm. And then people in this toxic organizations, they will say, Do you know what you suck, and I'm going to work for this company, because it has a better culture. And so at some point, I believe that there's going to be this tipping point, or no one will want want to work for a toxic environment, and they will be forced to change. But they will be not be the first to change, they will be the last to change. And so I think we are doing great work for these toxic environments as well, just indirectly,

Daniel Franco 1:14:02
now that you put it like that we're creating a nice little web where, you know, it's almost going to become the expect. Yeah, like you said, this is what I expect when I rock up into work every single day. It's a leader that actually cares about what we're trying to do. And it cares about that he or she cares about the strategy. Or they care about where, where we're all going as as a human race or a community or whatever it might look like. So I think that's really important. I'm conscious of time we've, we've ticked over the hour mark, but I want to ask one last question before we jump into some quickfire questions. The future of work, there's this suggestion that over the next 20 years, there's going to be more or there's going to be more change over the next 20 years than what we've seen in the past 300 years. How does a business and a leader plan for this continue a constant change without actually knowing what it looks like.

Aga Bajer 1:15:04
I know. Well, I mean, from the neuroscience point of view, we need to be very mindful of the fact that our brains are not wired to work well in an environment of ambiguity. So human nature resists this, this thing, that rapid change with passion. And so I love your question and asking how can lead us create an environment where, you know, people can deal with with this amount of change, because this is actually probably going to be one of the biggest and most in demand capabilities of leaders going forward, creating an environment where people can feel safe enough to deal with external ambiguity and rapid change. And it bears repeating, because I think for a lot of people they are they see this as conflicting ideas, safe environment, but you know, to deal with external ambiguity, yes. Because human beings to be able to deal with whatever threat we need to know that there is a safe base. And so I think that within teams within organizations, what's really important is to create conditions where it's okay not to know it's okay to be vulnerable. It's okay and safe to disagree. It's okay and safe to learn new stuff where you are clumsy and lost and confused. And it's okay to admit, hey, I suck at this. And I really don't know how to get better, you know. And unless you have that safe environment within the organization, of course, you will not be able to adapt to the changing environment. Because you know, if people need to seem very capable and very professional and very buttoned up on places, they will not be willing to learn and be vulnerable. So this, I think one of the concepts that has really come to the surface recently is this concept of psychological safety with Amy Edmondson and Timothy Clark spearheading this movement. And I think it's one of the most important areas for leaders to dive deep into how do I create psychological safety on my team so that we can move with the changes at the speed with which they are happening?

Daniel Franco 1:17:37
I love it. I wrote, I wrote what you just said down there, and we're just how do we create an environment where people feel safe in a world with constant change? That might be my new vision statement for the business? So it's, it's, it's definitely one that, like you said, with the constant change, and it's not just digital change, right? It's organizational change, it's worth change. It's environmental change, social change. Exactly. It's all the above that goes into that. And, and not to mention dealing with, with a pandemic, and across the US. We had to have a podcast and mentioned pandemic.

Aga Bajer 1:18:18
It's funny, you know, because we went for more than an hour without mentioning it, which I think in itself, it's telling maybe we're getting over it, finally.

Daniel Franco 1:18:27
Yeah, absolutely. I think or were a little bit more philosophical than than the media. But that's fine. What I want to ask one last question before, before we go into the quickfire questions, so your, your book I'm really interested in in your book, let's let's give that a little bit of a plug. Now, what is your book about and, and tell us, tell us yet how it all came to be.

Aga Bajer 1:18:54
So if you are a person in HR, and if you are responsible for cultivating a coaching culture, this is a book for you. So it's definitely not a book for everyone. It's quite an academic book in the sense that there's a lot it's quite heavy. It's not an easy read, you know, on the weekend. It's a book that really talks about the technical and deep scientific sort of aspects of how do you create an environment where coaching becomes second nature to people? And so we talk a lot about creating internal pools of coaches and managers as a coach and what does our coaching culture even look like and stuff like that? And I co authored it with two giants in the space. Both David David Clutterbuck and David Magnuson, and yeah, it's out there for anyone who's really interested in this specific topic.

Daniel Franco 1:19:55
So where can i Where can they find

Aga Bajer 1:19:57
anywhere really? So Amazon I think would it be Probably the best place to go to. And the title of the book is Building and Sustaining a Coaching Culture.

Daniel Franco 1:20:06
Excellent. We'll definitely we'll put that in the show notes for everyone to get on to it as well. So quickfire questions, these might not necessarily always be quickfire. But we are very big readers here on the creative synergy podcast. And you mentioned that you were also reading 50 Odd books a year. What is What are you reading right now?

Aga Bajer 1:20:31
So I'm reading a book called Free Time by Jenny Blake, I think the title might be slightly misleading, because actually, it's not just about free time and what we think about when it comes to free time. But it's about how you can create a business where you get to do the work, you love, more of the work that you love, and less of the stuff that you hate doing. So it's a great book for founders and leaders of organizations that grow. So I found myself in the space. And so I'm reading this book right now. And I'm finding it really, really useful.

Daniel Franco 1:21:09
Brilliant. Do you audio book, or do you read.

Aga Bajer 1:21:12
I do audio book a lot, I'm a big multitasker. So every visit to the gym, every work, every drive, I'm always listening to something, you too?

Daniel Franco 1:21:23
on the same I probably the same maybe you know, maybe not 50 books a year, but at least 30 to 40 books a year. And definitely, definitely audio book is the reason and how I get through it so quickly. And

Aga Bajer 1:21:40
go ahead, probably you are going to

Daniel Franco 1:21:44
Yeah, I buy the book after the audio book, and then scribble down all my notes and everything that's in there. So people hate me because half those books that are standing sitting right behind me right now. And that's I do that because I don't want people to borrow it.

Aga Bajer 1:21:59
Ah, that's smart. I'm a kindle more of a Kindle girl. And the reason is that we are moving around so much. And I already have endless boxes of books. So I don't want to add to that. But but I will do exactly the same thing. So if I listen to a book, and I find it really useful, and something that I want to go back to, I'll download the Kindle version. And so I have always two versions and audio and and a Kindle version.

Daniel Franco 1:22:29
Yeah. I need to I've got the Kindle. I'm looking at it right now. But I just don't use it as well as I do I use it. I don't know there's something about just I don't know picking up hard copy the smell of the love the smell. It's yeah. Given culture labs podcast, what other podcasts Do you listen to? Other than creating synergy of course, what other ones do you listen to?

Aga Bajer 1:22:57
So I love work life by Adam Grant. I love Yeah. Are you fans as well?

Daniel Franco 1:23:06
I'm a I'm a massive fan of Adam Grant.

Aga Bajer 1:23:08
Yeah, me too. I love brave new work with Aaron Dignan and Rodney Evans. So in our space, I think that these would be my my top two. What else also listen to many other podcasts I love 10% happier with Dan Harris, which is mostly about being present and meditation and happiness. Obviously. I love stories like a huge I'm completely addicted to story. So one of the podcasts that I listened to is the moth. And I also did do you know it?

Daniel Franco 1:23:44
No, I have heard of it. I've heard some really great things, but I have never invested time.

Aga Bajer 1:23:49
Yeah, it's really cool. You know, if if you're sort of relaxing or trying to fall asleep or whatever. So that's my go to if I can't sleep, and then I love the storytelling of This American Life, for example, you know, so I love this format, which is really sort of a journalistic approach almost like a radio show. Kind of thing. Absolutely wonderful.

Daniel Franco 1:24:14
I love it. Now, what is one lesson that is taking you the longest to learn?

Aga Bajer 1:24:19
I think it's that I cannot control everything. But I can co create it

I've really struggled to find the right balance there between control and like being laid back. None felt entirely like the right place to be sitting in and then I I just came up with this idea for myself of CO creating with the universe you know, so like being flexible enough to let life happen to me and then working and dancing with what's happening and allowing serendipity to play a role in how I build my business and how I live my life. So that I think that that was really hard to learn. And I'm in no way, claiming that I've mastered this skill, I'm still learning it. And yeah, it's

Daniel Franco 1:25:16
but I love your way of explaining of dancing with the co creation of in the way the, I mean, that just paints a picture in itself. I think it's one thing that I, when I look up to people, I some people that I look up to have this ability to just let the water roll off, you know, like, and just let it and I it's, it's amazing. I sit there with you know this glint in my eyes when I see people do it, because I struggle with it, I'm very much the same as you.

Aga Bajer 1:25:47
What do you find most challenging around that?

Daniel Franco 1:25:52
I think it's the think if I was to put down as one of my skill sets is the ability to be able to read three or four, three or four positions, you know, you know, read the play, almost, I can see what's going to happen right down the track. And, and so I position it and prepare myself for that. And, and when others don't see it, then that's when I start getting anxious and I start feeling like I need to control this situation. And, you know, maybe I should definitely read your book and how to be from the coaching element point of view, and how do I let other people make mistakes? I do do that. But I think it's it's one thing that I grapple, especially internally, is the ability to let go

Aga Bajer 1:26:38
at a leadership level, by the way, I'm going to plug a book of my friend Michael bank is Tanya, because his his books are great for leaders who want to become a little bit more of a coaching leader in a very practical way. So anything by Michael bengis. Tanya is is is a great read. And he has these seven questions that leaders can ask. So it's almost like literally, you know, memorizing the questions, and then just using them in your conversations, even that approach, which obviously is very mechanistic, is already helps a lot in kind of, yeah, giving up the control and engaging a little bit more with drawing others in and getting their ideas on board.

Daniel Franco 1:27:26
If you could invite three people for dinner, who would they be?

Aga Bajer 1:27:29
So I don't know why this is really bizarre. But since I was a kid, I was obsessed with Africa, and a particular period, particularly in Kenya, and women who lived there. So one of them is Karen Blixen, the author of Out of Africa. And then there is Beryl Markham, who lived exactly during the same period in Kenya as current Aleksander so basically, they moved around I suppose 1914 Some something like that. And this was such a, you know, the nature and so on. So, and they were incredibly bold, independent, adventurous women. So Beryl Markham was a woman pilot and she was a commercial pilot's, you know, in Africa back then, can you imagine as she flew through, across the Atlantic alone, so absolutely amazing back then. So I would definitely love for the two of them to be there. And then I think I would invite Margaret Mead also. So another woman that very diverse from that point of view, famous anthropologist, I think it would be a very interesting conversation.

Daniel Franco 1:28:43
Absolutely. What What's some of the best advice that you've ever received?

Aga Bajer 1:28:49
So I think it was best and very powerful and transformational when someone and you know, the moment has to be right for us to be able to listen to something like that.

Daniel Franco 1:28:59
I agree that I actually I agree the same with reading a book,

Aga Bajer 1:29:02
correct? Yeah. Yes, yes. Yes. Yes, absolutely. So the advice was more of a statements really well, and a little bit of advice, which was along the lines of You are not perfect, but you are enough. So live from that space. You are not perfect, but you are enough. And that was Wow, that really changed my world. Because I always had this you know, I think needs to be perfect. And at the same time, the imposter syndrome, kicking in all the time, it can be completely paralyzing. So I tried to remind myself to live from that space. It's okay not to be perfect. I'm not perfect, but I am enough. And I'm going to run with it. You know,

Daniel Franco 1:29:53
can I ask you a question on that? And I'm going to digress sorry from the questions but when you say when you when you say I am enough. And this is something I struggle with as well. Does when you say I am enough, does that mean that I am no longer continuing to strive to get better?

Aga Bajer 1:30:12
No. Yeah, thank you for this question. Because I think for many people that might sound a bit like that. But what that is, is, it's, it's saying I am enough to try, right, I am enough to step up. And to lead this group of people, for example, it's, it's something that we need to embrace, to be able to step into the arena and do something that we're scared off. Because fear and this, you know, impostor syndrome and all this shit that is coming up, can I say shits? Do you? Well, no.

Daniel Franco 1:30:53
It doesn't bother me,

Aga Bajer 1:30:53
oh, this shit that is coming up for us. What it does is it prevents us from doing important work. And I think, you know, the more important and impactful the work can be, the more afraid we feel. And so there's not enough nurse is basically keeping us chained to this position of almost like a victim kind of mentality, or, or an observer mentality where you just watch what happens, you get frustrated by things, but you don't do anything about it. So this is what I mean by being enough, enough to step up to a challenge. And obviously, I will need to learn and I will need to grapple with my weaknesses, and so on and so forth. But I don't allow the lack of perfection to stop me from trying. Yeah, you know, someone said, I think it was Elizabeth Gilbert. And I love this phrase that this feeling of not enough nurse is is basically fear, wearing a fur coat. So like this fancy, you know, and Jimmy Choo shoes kind of thing, a fairly fancy version, basically, sort of hiding really this animalistic fear that you are going to die, you know, you're going to die if you do this thing. And so you just hide. So I don't want to hide. That's why I tell myself, I'm enough, you know, even coming on your podcast or doing anything in the public arena. It's one of those things, right? When you are asking yourself, Who am I really to speak to 1000s of people about this stuff. There are so many other people who are wiser, more capable, more fun, more entertaining, right? And if you allow this voice to drive your life, you're screwed, basically.

Daniel Franco 1:32:43
Yeah, look, it's imposter syndrome is real. And it's definitely one thing that I grappled with the simple fact that I have some amazing people on the show. And you know, you talk the same as well, when you you have some world renowned guests on your show to and and you sit there and you go, What Why would anyone want to speak to me? Like, what? Why am I so lucky? But yeah, I think it is, it is definitely saying I am enough, is definitely something that will get you through it and, and being comfortable with the ambiguity of it always is it is a definite skill set. I don't think that I don't think that you and I suffer from any less anxiety from anyone else. It's just I think maybe we can push it to the side and, and get on with it. Right?

Aga Bajer 1:33:39
Yeah, I guess so. That's really it's right. And sometimes you swear as you go. I mean, last weekend, a friend of ours invited us to a hike up the barn ethos mountain in, in attic, in your Athens. And I didn't realize it's Greece, you know, so I didn't realize that there would actually be a lot of snow and we would be like walking up the mountain at some point. In deep, deep snow and I'm not that fed. I'm not a hiker. So I was like swearing for you know, two hours non stop, like really bad language and my husband was walking next to me because I've never had, you know, sore so much in a period of one hour when things got difficult, but you know, then you're like, yeah, that's that's exactly as you know, I could have gone back when I saw the snow and said I'm going down guys, I'm really not going to the peak and I think this thing I am enough, it's helped me get there and kind of push through in a terrible way. You know, I probably spoiled everyone's experience because they had to wait for me and whatever. So they're gonna realize that but but it's still a choice, right? So you can still choose to do it and then do it again and again and again. And eventually, hopefully you build up The fitness level to to make the experience pleasurable for the people who are with you as well.

Daniel Franco 1:35:07
The choice part, we could talk about that we're going to have a whole podcast. So, Victor Frankel's, you know, stimulus and response between stimulus and responses that choice. So,

Aga Bajer 1:35:22
space, yeah.

Daniel Franco 1:35:26
Next question, if you had access to a time machine, where would you go?

Aga Bajer 1:35:29
So I already answered the question. Partially, I think I would get Yeah, I would go to 1920s. In Kenya.

Daniel Franco 1:35:37
amazing. If you had one superhero power, what would it be?

Aga Bajer 1:35:43
I think I'd like to fly for the perspective. So, you know, sometimes when I can get away from things and get up the mountain, or on the sea, or whatever, I really get that sense of a better perspective, and that we really are a speck. And all the troubles and problems that seem gigantic, when we are on earth are really not that important. So I'd like to be able to fly just for the perspective sake. So like, get up there and see things for what they really are

Daniel Franco 1:36:19
definitely humbling experience being up there. Now, I'm, I'm a big fan of really bad jokes. Have you got a mom or dad joke for me?

Aga Bajer 1:36:34
So first of all, I'm terrible at telling jokes, which everyone now who's listening to this podcast will realize it's a choice, right?

Daniel Franco 1:36:44
That's the beauty of this question. Yeah. It's supposed to be bad. Yeah.

Aga Bajer 1:36:49
Between the stimulus and the reaction, there is a space. I'm in this space right now, and I'm going to dive into it in spite of the fact that I know that I'm terrible. So a dad's joke, what, what do we call someone with no body and no nose?

Daniel Franco 1:37:11
I know that I know the answer to this, but I'm gonna let you deliver the punch.

Aga Bajer 1:37:15
Nobody knows.

Daniel Franco 1:37:18
Brilliant, nobody knows. Yeah, I love it. So good. What do you call a person with no nose? And no eyes? And no legs?

Aga Bajer 1:37:29
Oh my gosh. I have no idea.

Daniel Franco 1:37:34
Sorry, not not no eyes, no, no eyes, no body and no legs

Aga Bajer 1:37:37
no eyes, no body and no legs. Eyes, nobody

Daniel Franco 1:37:42
still nobody knows.

Brilliant, thank you so much. Thank you, Aga for your time today, you have been an absolute pleasure to speak to this is gonna go down in the history books as one of the most epic conversations. So thank you, for all your knowledge, appreciate it. And thank you for your the work that you're doing in this space. And you know, especially with culture brains, and the work that you're doing with organizations, but further to that, the podcasts and you know, the content that you're creating, I have no doubt is absolutely changing lives. It's changing organizations for the better, and improving leadership capabilities, improving leaders in helping reach their strategies and manage their cultures in a way that is beneficial for the people who work for him. So you're having an impact on the world, and kudos for that.

Aga Bajer 1:38:43
Thank you, Daniel. And likewise, you are doing amazing work. And I know that you're changing the world as well. So thank you for your work. And I think you know, it's one of those moments when you feel like oh, I've met one of the people of my tribe and it's such a wonderful thing to be sitting across someone on the other side of the world who is passionate about similar things and is doing similar work and and I believe that it really does take an army of kindness and and change agents like you to make work better and suck less for people. So I'm grateful for you. I'm definitely grateful for you for your show, for the consulting work that you're doing. We're on the same journey and it's fun to know that there are people like you out there doing similar work.

Daniel Franco 1:39:33
Absolutely. We it's funny that you say we found someone in our tribe, I'm known as a people collect this. So unfortunately, you're never letting me go. Okay, I'm always gonna be hanging around somewhere.

Aga Bajer 1:39:44
I'm stuck with you. And I'm liking it. It's great, sounds like a great plan. But likewise,

Daniel Franco 1:39:51
where can where can we find you?

Aga Bajer 1:39:54
Well, I think the best place is I wish I could say what Seth Godin says but probably it's not true. What he says is just type Seth into Google. I wish I could just type Aga into Google and you'll find me. But it's much more complicated than that. So I'd suggest visit my website, which is agabajer.com, which is spelled ag AGA BAJER.com and you will have access to what I'm doing and the blogs that we're creating and the podcasts and the book and everything is that,

Daniel Franco 1:40:29
A G A B A J E R.com. And, and the culture labs podcast, you can get it on all the podcast outlets, it's definitely worth listening to. So thank you. Thank you very much for your time again, I go well, I will catch you soon. Thank you. Thanks, guys. Thanks for listening to the podcast. Or you can check out the show notes if there was anything of interest to you and find out more about us at Synergy iq.com.au. I am going to ask though, if you did like the podcast, it would absolutely mean the world to me if you could subscribe, rate and review. And if you didn't like it, that's alright too. There's no need to do anything. Take care guys, all the best.

Synergy IQ 1:41:11
Thank you once again for joining us here at creating synergy. It's been great spending this time with you. Please jump on to the synergy IQ Facebook and LinkedIn page where the discussion continues after the show. Join our mailing list so you'll know what's happening next at Synergy iq.com.au. And of course, don't forget to subscribe to this podcast. And if you really enjoyed it, please share it with your friends.