Synergy IQ: 0:01

Welcome to Creating synergy where we explore what it takes to transform. We are powered by Synergy IQ. Our mission is to help leaders create world class businesses where people are safe, valued, inspired and fulfilled. We can only do this with our amazing communities. Thank you for

Daniel Franco: 0:18

Welcome back to another episode of Create listening. Synergy podcast. My name is Daniel Franco and today we are welcoming back my wonderful business partner Michelle T. Holland. With over 20 years of experience as a leader in creating business excellence through people, Michelle has helped 1000s of leaders build their confidence in skills in change. She's an experienced cultural change expert, a certified data lead facilitator, a strategic adviser to some of Australia's largest business and corporations. She's the author of three books, including the best seller Culture, Inc. Michelle speaks at conferences, runs workshops, advises and consults and challenges the thinking of some of Australia's greatest leaders. Not only is she a regular on this podcast, but she can be regularly seen and heard as a guest on many podcast networks and interviews. Check her out and Michelle T. Holland on LinkedIn. In this episode, Michelle and I had a great conversation about the challenges businesses are facing and how they can bring optimism and pragmatism to tackle the brand new year ahead of us. We also deep dived into the learnings of 2021. The uncertainty and dilemmas that businesses are facing due to the current circumstances such as the army current variant, how the language we use on a day to day basis can shape who we are and what we believe to be true. Michelle also defines optimism and how reality can distort our outlook, and ways that we can overcome this. We touched on the importance of clear communication in the workforce and how we can all communicate better. And we all know that the world is struggling with workforce shortages at the moment. And Michelle shines a light on some creative ways to tackle this problem. And we rounded off the chat with our expectations for 2022. I know you're going to absolutely love this chat. And if you'd like to learn more about some of our amazing leaders that we've had on the creating synergy podcast, then be sure to jump on our website at Synergy. iq.com.au and check us out at creating synergy podcast on all the podcast outlets. And if you feel like it, leave us a review on the Apple podcast. Welcome back to the creating synergy podcast. My name is Daniel Franco, your host and today we have the amazing Michelle Holland my business partner, Michelle Holland, thank you and welcome back for 2022 for

Michelle Holland: 2:42

Thank you Dan for having me, I felt a little you know, ignored because I've been on since the beginning of last year, you've had all these amazing guests on they've just been you know, taking your time. And I've really enjoyed listening to them all. So but I'm very, very humbled and proud to be back again.

Daniel Franco: 2:58

Well, we're glad to have you back.

Michelle Holland: 3:01

Yeah really, totally. Okay, no worries.

Daniel Franco: 3:03

Don't worry about that. We are trawling a few different things. So we are online today, which is we want to start expanding the podcasts and going a little bit more international. And we have we've done a few international ones now on Interstate one. So we're just trialing a few things. That's why we are online, it does sound slightly different. So what we're going to talk about today is building optimism for business in 2022. And if there's anyone that knows a little bit about that it's you, Michelle. Yeah. So what are your, what are your thoughts so far of the start of the year and and before we actually get into the building of the optimism, I'd be really keen to understand some of your key learnings that you're taking away from 2020.

Michelle Holland: 3:53

Yeah, that's great place to start. Yeah, so welcome to 2022 or 2020 also, people who have I've heard people say, which I'm hoping not, I'm hoping now there's my optimism. I hope not. But yeah, 2022 I think, you know, it's funny, actually, I did write a bit of a, an article that's on LinkedIn about some learnings that I had in 2021. And obviously, there are lots of business learnings. And we, we worked really hard on on expanding the business last year and really honing in on the kind of work that we do and our purpose, etc. So that that's been a great experience and a great learning journey. I think my biggest learning came just before Christmas, and that sounds funny, but I went into the Christmas break, not feeling exhausted. And I think you know, when I felt that it felt so unusual for me that I didn't feel completely burnt out and exhausted by the end of the year and I recognized it because it felt so unusual for me. So that was a big learning for me that the fact that going into a break, where I was, yeah, I was tired, and I was ready for my break. But I didn't feel like I was completely shattered, I was completely burnt out, that was a really new thing for me. And I think what I learned from that is just that realization that the work that I've been doing over the last two years to really focus on and improve my management of my well being, has actually began to work. So that's been a huge learning for me, and also, the other elements of this because I know that a lot of the time we don't allow ourselves to rest, we don't allow ourselves to manage our well being and focus on that, because we think we're not going to get anything done. And I actually believe I got more done last year than I have in probably the three years before that. So more focused time, more more connection time with people in the business outside of the business. I wrote another book, I've you know, done blogs all year, I've worked with clients all year, I've worked with our team all year. And you know, we've been growing the business, obviously all year as well. So when I look back over the year I go, I actually got more done, and I feel more rested. Really strange that big, big learning for me huge learning.

Daniel Franco: 6:34

I think it's, it's it's an important point, because I know, obviously we've worked together for a couple of years. And I remember it was probably two or three years ago, you were at a point almost of no return your your health had taken a real hit. I don't remember after that year, you sit down, I'm never gonna let that happen again. And then the next year, it happened again, but not so bad. Like there was an improvement. It was it was worse than before

Michelle Holland: 7:01

never ever

Daniel Franco: 7:04

And but yeah, but you have now managed and I have seen in this light, what is difference in where you were, you know, the end of 2020 2020 compared to end 2019 compared to to this year. In fact, I've Oregon off taking on some of that burnout instead. I already know, this year and yeah, yeah. Burnout is not contagious. But it's, um, I definitely I definitely hit a wall this year. And I think just learning from some of your learnings has helped me get through this piece. So yeah, yeah.

Michelle Holland: 7:45

And I think I mean, we're not going to burden people with burnout through this session. But I think it is one thing that people do experience. And if we're talking about optimism into 2022, part of that is about personal well being as well and making sure that we are actually taking care of ourselves and not just our businesses, because without us there is no business, particularly if you're a smaller business. But it's equally as important. If you're a leader of a team or a leader of a business or a leader of a department, then you need to be in a place where you can give to the people in your team, if you're maxed out. If you're overwhelmed and you're burnt out, then you're really not in a place to actually give to the people around you as well. And we do martyrdom ourselves in this sort of stuff. And I mean, that's one of the things I want to talk about today is the you know how we use language because even using the language of I'm so overwhelmed when we say that all the time, our bodies believe it. So it's like we just we need to be really careful about the language we use as well and also how we are and I'm using this word, purposefully managing our well being so important, but what about you? What did you feel like you learned from 2021 that you're gonna take into this year?

Daniel Franco: 9:10

I from a from a business perspective, believe lots.

Michelle Holland: 9:17

Brain explosion. Yeah, emoji. I can imagine you like little emoji with the explosion coming out the head. Yeah.

Daniel Franco: 9:24

Yeah, I think I think the the ups and downs of the past couple of years have really sort of held us in good stead and built some resilience and actually forced the learning onto onto us as a business, which has been really exciting. And we've gone from strength to strength as a result. One thing I did learn that I find really interesting is that at the start of the pandemic, there was this sort of it was really, for me, it was really exciting because it was there was this common theme that was We're all in this together, right? And I was really sort of, you know, hot it was heartwarming to see that there was some really great videos and everything else going around, you know, with people singing from the rooftops and, and then there was songs created as a result and all the above. And so I was actually pretty impressed with humanity at that point. But then last year, we just saw, there's this real divide at the moment. And there's one thing that I've lost a little bit of confidence in, in humanity is everyone's got an opinion of everything. And I think I put up a LinkedIn post the other day, is that Dunning Kruger effect everyone believes that they know a little bit about about a subject and all of a sudden they're experts in it. And one thing Yeah, that is one thing, I hope that changes again and goes backwards comes back to some sense of normality, because everyone's got an opinion, and everyone's got a different opinion. And you don't know who the experts are anymore. So one thing I hope that we Yeah, from an optimism point of view, we can really see that to start to change in 2022. And go back to something

Michelle Holland: 11:06

Yeah, I agree with you, I think with like just the the vaccination kind of business, there's been a massive divide in that. And it, it does, it worries me, but doesn't surprise me, because this is literally how humans behave. You know, when I know something, I know it to be true. And then I go out and search for everything that I know to be true to confirm what I know to be true, right. So that's just how our brains work. That's how we we function. And that's been happening on a global scale. So if somebody on Facebook tells me that it's not okay to get vaccinated, then I searched for everything that tells me it's not okay to get vaccinated if I believe that, and vice versa. If somebody on Facebook says you should go get vaccinated, and I firmly believe that, then I'm going to look for everything that I can find, that shows me that it's the right thing. And I think the thing we don't do enough of as humans, and this is where I think a lot of this judgment stuff comes from is what's called cognitive dissonance. So we can hold two truths to be true, at the same time that feel like they're conflicting. So like, personally, I'm not an advocate for vaccinations, right. It's something that even when I was getting my children vaccinated, I realized, you know, I'll have to look into each one and decided, yes, they'll have this one, and no, they won't have this one, etc, etc. I'm not somebody who gets the flu shot every year, it's not something that I think I need, you know, I didn't get my children vaccinated against chickenpox, you know, all of these sort of things. So I've made choices along the way, I have chosen to get vaccinated against COVID. And it's more to do with as a small business owner, the bigger risk to me is not getting back to normal, not getting back to some sort of normality in our worlds. And I figure, if the government's believe that by all of us being vaccinated, then we're going to be able to get back to normal. Then I'm like, Well, you know, what, I pay my taxes. So I'll pay this tax, which is getting vaccinated. And that's how I, how I see it, you know, I want to travel, I want to have my business be, you know, in a better position, I want my friends businesses, because I've got a few friends that are in the events industry, and there's, you know, their business has gone up to 100%, down to nothing, up to 100%, down to 20%, up to 100% down to 20%. That's not survivable. You know, when you think about the quiet times in the city, right now, you know, we went into the city yesterday, me and my family to have lunch together and walked into the crown and scepter, which is a great pub in Adelaide here and walked in and said, Oh, we've got a booking and the guy didn't even take my name. He said, Oh, yeah, your bookings out the back. Because we were lifted, literally the only people there. And that's not okay for businesses, right. So when we talk about building optimism, we have to think about the realities of the circumstances that we're in as well, because the reality is, is the government has made decisions that has impacted particularly smaller businesses. And given that South Australia is what I say 85 percents SME small business. That's a huge chunk of people who have been quite negatively affected not by the COVID virus, but by the government response to the COVID virus. I mean, we we were chatting about this just before Christmas, and then after Christmas, where, you know, the public sector decided that they would send all of their employees home which is around about what 130,000 employees or something mostly based in the seat?

Daniel Franco: 15:07

What well, well known fact checked by Emma Ranieri on on the last podcast that we just had, which was 70, odd 1000 frontline workers and not necessarily based in the city, there's only about 15,000

Michelle Holland: 15:21

15,000 base in the city. Yeah. Which is still a large workforce for Adelaide CBD. So, you know, sending them home. It's not about just those 15,000, though, is it? It's the businesses that follow suit, because the public sector are the biggest employee employer in the state. It's the big Yeah, that's right. And everybody else that's gone? Well, you know, we'll send everybody home and, and work from home. So that has a ripple effect and, you know, ripple effect to businesses, a ripple effect to people, to families, etc, etc. So those things are real, and we're making choices around that. And to me, that, I think is actually if we're talking about optimism, that's the base of optimism is choice.

Daniel Franco: 16:11

Absolutely. There's one thing that I always say, To most people, and when, when they're trying to impart their their opinion onto me is, my first question back is to shut down the conversation, right? Because I don't want to get involved in a long, lengthy conversation on the benefits of vaccines or the help the the negative been like the negative impact of vaccines, I don't really, I've made my decision. I've gone forward with my choices, you can do what you want with your body and your family. So literally, to shut any conversation now. Now I just say, Okay, where did you get that information from? I'm really interested in academic report. Where'd you get that from? And nine times out of 10? It's YouTube or Facebook? And so I just nodded my head. Okay, cool. Yeah, well, I'm, I'm choosing not to, you know, follow any year information or, you know, that that's provided on those websites. So I'll listen to the people who are the academics and actually study and put some time.

Michelle Holland: 17:15

And I think at the end of the day, it's up to you to choose, you know, when I remember when I was researching vaccinations when I was pregnant with my first child, and because I had a lot of people that I was surrounded by who were very much anti vaxxers. Right. So I was going okay, well, they have a, they have a right to that they have some really great knowledge around that as well. One of them was a health professional. And I was like, Okay, well, I'm gonna look at this myself. And I started reading articles. And I ended up finding these two, you know, peer reviewed academic articles that I was reading one was about, yes, you must Vax. The other was No, you must not vaccinate your children. And both articles had cited the same study. So and they were using this same study to support their argument for against

Daniel Franco: 18:15

You told.

Michelle Holland: 18:17

And I went, Well, you know, what, at the end of the day, that's the reality was sciences, science doesn't know everything, right. It's a, it's going backwards and forwards and figuring it out along the way. And, you know, what we know knew at the beginning of the pandemic is very different to what we know now. And the decisions that we made, you know, midway through the pandemic, or probably different decisions that we know now because we know things different. Some things have been proven, something's been disproven, you know, and that's, to me is the reality of science. Right? That's, that's the beauty of it is that we can actually come into it with a bit of faith, right, we have a bit have to have a bit of faith, you know, whether your faith is in you know, science or the faith is in something else, it's still faith. And we have to make the right decision for ourselves in all of this

Daniel Franco: 19:10

Absolutely. And I think that's the most critical point is that there's no one size fits all for everyone you make the decision with your history and family history and

Michelle Holland: 19:20

absolutely

Daniel Franco: 19:23

you know your body better than anyone and it's yours to make a decision. I want to talk about I can be what I believe in you and I we do this a lot within our business is especially from communications is a big part of our and strength where we can help businesses grow and improve and get some messages out. One thing we have seen is really poor communication from from the technical or the experts, I guess. I think you know, that they were putting out this really amazing vaccines and the way they've done it, but really not communicated. Really and left a lot open to interpretation, we see that quite a fair bit in businesses, even if they're going through a cultural change or digital transformation change. Why is it that businesses really struggle with clear and concise communication? Or governments, for that matter, whoever, why is it that communication is always one of those areas, which really struggles? And then that's where you hear a lot of the, you know, ifs, buts and maybes and come out and

Michelle Holland: 20:31

say, Why is communication so hard? Why does it not happen in a consistent way? Why can we not get the messages out that we need to get out? And the short answer is, because we're people who were painful, we're human, that's just the way we communicate. We believe our own truths, that's really what it is. And every time we come at some sort of communication, even when we're trying to be as impartial as possible, we're still coming at it from the point of view of I want to influence and convince, you know, essentially convince you that what I'm saying is correct. So if I come at my communication, from that point of view, it's actually it's ego based communication. So because it's about my message, and making sure that you listen to my message, and agree with my message. If we come at communication, from that point of view, we'll always get it wrong. All right, we'll always get it wrong. This is why you know, you hear change managers talk a lot about the what's in it for me there, W I fm, you know, what's in it for me? Yeah. And look, that's basically a short form version of saying, we need to understand the other people in this communication flow, we need to understand what they're actually thinking about what they're actually listening to what their, what's important to them in this particular moment. And that's the only way we're gonna actually cut through all of the noise, because you think about all of the noise that's out there right now. You just for you, personally, Dan, your inbox, all the stuff that comes into your inbox, right? I know, for me, I've got you know, it's separated out into this is the stuff I have to address. And this is the stuff that I can go and have a look at, you know, the, the folder of the whatever it's called the unfocused folder, whatever it is Microsoft thing. But when I look at that, and I go, Okay, I've now got 100 emails in this other folder. I rarely look at any of them, I may scan through. And I might go, oh, okay, that one looks like it's somewhat interesting to me. And it's generally, if it says something in the subject that I'm thinking about in that moment. That's the thing that I listened to. That's what I pay attention to. Otherwise, there's 100 messages there, that I won't listen to that I won't actually, I won't even hear them. Right. So if we're always coming from the point of view of this message has to be heard by that person. And I'm going to say it in a way that I believe to be true, then our communication is always going to hit like not hit the mark. It's just not, you know, I we quite often talk about communication does not equal conversation. It doesn't equal dialogue, right. So communication in businesses a lot of the time is we've put something up on the website, or we've sent out an email. We've told people about this at a, you know, a town hall or whatever it might be in that sort of group environment. And we do that for effectiveness. We do that for efficiencies, not effectiveness. But efficiencies. We do that because no one on one. Yeah, that's right. So but we know that to actually get better outcomes in communication. Communication is two way. Right? It's me speaking to you about something you asking questions about it. You disagreeing with me, potentially me kind of going oh, yeah, that's interesting point, or I have to think about that, me thinking about that. Coming back with something different and us having a dialogue. That's communication, right. And that's actually effective communication. We may still leave the conversation going. No, I still believe what I believe. But at least we've had an opportunity to think it through together. And I feel heard you feel heard. We go yes, we've we have actually had that communication we have actually we know about that. Whereas most of our communication, particularly in business is one way communication, right? It's one way traffic and We send out an email into an inbox into somebody who's working. And they potentially are working, you know, their 830 to 530. time slot. They're going from meeting to meeting to meeting, they're answering the emails that they need to because it's like, can you please answer this question? And urgently, they're doing the five minutes in the office kind of deal? You know, can I just have a quick conversation in the hallway? Is it any wonder that we have? Probably, you know, I'm going to use a pull it out the air of 80% of people that say, they say, I didn't, you didn't tell me that? I never knew that.

Daniel Franco: 25:41

What that was gonna be the first question I was gonna ask now, which, which is, as a later, let's say, We're say suede or general management director level, you know, what have you that high executive level, within a business. And you have this sort of push and pull of the greater workforce saying, you know, be transparent, right, as part of a great culture, be transparent, communicate regularly, do all those things. And then when you do, you're not doing it well enough, or they're not listening to it, or they're not reading it, or it hasn't been communicated in a way in which is transparent or, you know, so there's big fall down. So how do we as leaders, especially as lawyers, who might be listening mean, how did I close the gap of that push and pull? What are several? Is it just one form? Email? Is it? You know? What is it called a magazine that goes out to the cell wall? How do we include, especially for the larger organization, smaller businesses, a lot easier, larger organizations? Where there's hundreds? If not, you know, 1000s 10s? Of 1000s? Within a business? How do we communicate across the board? In a way that is heard more often than not?

Michelle Holland: 27:03

There is no one size fits all for that, and there's no easy answer. There is a place I think that you need to start, which a lot of people don't start in this place. It's really, what do you want people to take away from the message that you're providing? So if you're saying something about, let's say, a change that might be coming? What do you want people to do with the information that you're providing to them. So if you want them just to know about it, then sending an email or putting it on the, like, the notice boards or whatever, that's fine, that's fine. If it like literally your, your motivation is just to have the the information now out there, then cook, so good. If there's an action that you need people to take, as a result of the, the knowing of these things, so changes coming, and the action that I want them to take is to get excited about the change or understand that the change is there, or the action is they have to fill out new paperwork to do whatever it is, then an email and a, you know, intranet, communication is not going to cut it, it just won't, it will for some people, because everybody thinks and behaves differently. So we have people out there who are very much, you know, send it to me in an email, I consume the email, I do what I need to do via that email, I get it done. Right? Absolutely. There are those people in business? And then there are people who are, you haven't actually talked to me about this at all. I don't feel like I'm involved. And they need to feel involved in the conversation. Because that's just who they are. Right? And then you've got people who are just so you know, going on. So concentrating on what I'm doing right now, I don't give a stuff about what else what else is going on around me. I just need to be focused on what I'm doing. And I'm not going to stop and, you know, stop what I'm doing might be I feel really purposeful in what I'm doing. It might be really creative and might be really enjoyable. It might be fun, it might be energizing. Why would I stop that? To listen to this over here, which is kind of dull and boring. And I want to know about it, right? So there's all these different people in the organization that are receiving what you're putting out there. And this is where we call it say stakeholder analysis in change management. So we're looking at who are the people that need to receive this message, and what do we need them to do as a result of this message? And that then formulates how we then communicate with that message, right? So 90% of the people I just need them to know It's happening great. So an email will be fine. But the 10% of the people that I need something, you know them to do something about it, then I need to focus on them, I might need to actually have one on one conversations with them, I might need to sit them down in an open forum team meeting where there's a small group, and we can just talk it through together, and make sure that I'm using my chairing skills to bring everybody into the conversation and not let passengers just sit in conversations and, you know, twiddle their thumbs and play on their phone or look at the ceiling. Right? Everybody has to be involved in that conversation if you need everybody in that room to do something about it. So I guess the short answer to that very complex question is, we need to be much more targeted in our communication. Everybody doesn't need to know everything. Some people need to know much more than others do. And some people need to know exactly what you need them to do, to enable them to do it.

Daniel Franco: 31:03

You know, and, I mean, that just appeals to the different thinking styles and everything else that falls within there's different, several different types of people and the way they think and the way their brain works. So building your communication style to suit. So in regards to building optimism, then for 2022, right, there's a bit against us as businesses, corporations, at the moment, there's obviously the ongoing Omicron event pandemic, let's not, let's not look at small business here, I want to look at more sort of a larger, a larger business. But I mean, this, this is the this doesn't, this does affect everyone. But you got the Omicron variant, which is sending everyone else from from home. So as late as it's really difficult to connect with people. And really sort of put out clear and concise messaging, again, that communications pace, then we've got workforce shortages, which is just really causing some headaches for many, many people, and many, many businesses across Australia and the world, then we've got this divide in what we believe to be important now versus, you know, important in the future and what you know, then how do we work to the strategy? What is the business strategy, considering that we're always just trying to, we're always being very reactive. So there's all this stuff that is pushing our backs against the wall? How do we, how do we get optimistic for 2022? I know I am I just naturally am an optimistic person. But what about for those who, you know, it's kind of struggling at the moment and need some little bit of motivation? How do we how do we start?

Michelle Holland: 32:49

Yeah, well, there was a lot in that. And I kind of wish I'd brought my my Harry Potter wand upstairs, because we need a little bit of magic in that, in that description. There is a lot in what you've just said, there, there's a lot of things that are against us. I know. Let's just explore what optimism is first, right. So I think what people feel about optimism and the way they put it into practice, and then the definitions that they have in their head about optimism can be somewhat different. Because I know I hear from people that optimism is just you know, thinking happy thoughts and being positive about everything. And, you know, just moving forward into the future with you know, a smile on your face and all this sort of thing. And, to me, that's a really unrealistic version of what optimism actually is. That's what I would call the Lego Movie optimism. You know, everything is it's the fake version of optimism, it's that I'm going to pretend everything's great. I'm just gonna think happy thoughts. I'm just going to, you know, put it out to the universe and the universe will provide kind of deal. And if that's what you believe, and that works for you, more power to you. I know it doesn't work for most people. You know, and it looks like it's not authentic. It looks like it's faking it till you make it. And look, there is a I guess a philosophy which is the act as if philosophy right? So it's, if I want things to be more optimistic or positive in my life, then I'm going to act as if they are so that I bring that into my life. And to me that's not about you know, the secret or it's not about that. What's that thing that they do where they the universe brings something to you because you just love attraction? Yeah, you just send it out there and it comes back again. To me, it's more about if you are in a, a open minded place, which you need to be if you're going to be optimistic. Right. So if you're open minded, if you are looking for opportunities, if you are open and grateful for the things that are happening around you, you see things, you see the opportunities, right? Because they present themselves to you because you're actually looking for them, you see them. So going back to that thing of, we know that humans look for something to confirm what they believe to be true. So you know, it's that old thing. I've decided I'm going to buy a Volvo. And now all of a sudden, all I see on the road is Volvo's right. That's the way our brains work. Right? It's the, the terminology for it. I can't remember confirmation, the confirmation bias, right? So we believe we know to be true. So if we flip that around and go, Well, if I believe there are opportunities out there for me, even when things are a bit crappy, right, so we're in the midst of a pandemic, and we can't travel right now, and businesses are struggling and leaders are overwhelmed. And people are just, you know, mental health, they're struggling with their mental health, because they're just feeling a bit hopeless. If we stay in that space, that's what we will continue to see. Whereas if we say, okay, there are some optimum, you know, there are some opportunities here that I could grab hold of, it might not be the exact thing that I wanted, but it is still an opportunity. All right. It's like, Alright, I want to travel, I can't travel overseas, if I get myself lost in the fact that I can't travel overseas, and I'm going to stay in that negativity, I'm going to stay in that pessimism. Whereas it's okay. But I want to travel, that's what I want to do. Well, gee, there's a lot of places in South Australia haven't seen yet. So actually, I can go and have holiday moments in South Australia, I can go traveled places that I haven't experienced before, and have that experience, yet, it's still not going overseas, it's still not the same, you still don't get that with the aeroplane, you know, taking off. But it's still something that you can actually see as an opportunity. And be grateful for that. So there's Brene, brown just released her new book, which is called Atlas of the heart. And it's all about emotions, right? It's a it's basically it's a textbook, this is how I'm looking at. It's like a textbook for emotions, it's got all of these different emotions and experiences. And she's gone through through her research and explained these emotions and experiences. So it's really great for people who struggle a little bit in that space, you know, is it am I feeling overwhelmed? Or am I just feeling a little tired? You know, it'll help understand that stuff. But one of the things that she says in the book, and I think the key message for me that came out of it, which I was quite grateful for is that language is really powerful. Language will help shape who we are. So if we believe that things are terrible and negative is like, we're always going to be this way. We're never going to get out of this pandemic. Every business is failing. You know, everybody's having mental health issues. All of everything's a disaster waiting to happen if we continue to use that language that actually shapes who we are. So it's very hard to be optimistic when you're using pessimistic language. So the first thing we need to do and this is really, really important in organizations is to stop using the negative language is stop catastrophizing, everything. It's like, okay, we're making this change, and everybody hates change. No, that's not true. Not everybody hates change. They may hate it the way you're doing it right now. Yeah, potentially. But not everybody hates change. Alright, so we need to get out of that language of catastrophizing, we need to get out of that language of everything, and everyone and everybody, and actually become a lot more pragmatic. So I think when we're talking to organizations, because one of our key company values is optimism. And when we talk about optimism to our people and to our clients and to other people, is we call ourselves optimistic realists. And that's a really important distinction that we're not just everything is wonderful, everything is happy. Go out and you know, put your smile on your face and away you go and it's all sunshine and rainbows. It's actually what can we do to take advantage of the opportunity that's actually here? How can we support each other to get through the hard times? Is it okay to feel sad today? Because I know tomorrow, actually, it'll probably be okay. Because I was okay yesterday. You You know, and I think that's a really important thing, which is something like Gabby and I were chatting, so you know, Gabby's or podcast manager and producer. So we were chatting about optimism almost being like a way of avoiding things because it's like, okay, I'm just gonna put on a happy face. And I'm going to avoid all the emotions that I'm actually feeling right now. And this is like, I'm gonna smile, I'm gonna pretend that is so draining for people. And if you are a,

Daniel Franco: 40:27

and I must admit,

Michelle Holland: 40:29

it's totally fake it's completely inauthentic.

Daniel Franco: 40:32

People have a good a very good book.

Michelle Holland: 40:34

Absolutely! that's right. That's exactly right. And I think, you know, if you are a leader that's walking into your team, and you're constantly like, everything has to be happy, you know, leave your leave your baggage at the door, let's all be happy here. Yeah, that's a huge amount of pressure for people. Right? That's in your team, if that's what they believe, is like, I have to only bring my happy self to work, I can actually bring the self that is feeling this tough stuff right now. That's feeling like, Oh, I'm actually I am feeling a little hopeless at the moment. And but I'm not allowed to say that. I can't say that here. You know, because we all have to be everything is awesome here, you know, and that that's really difficult that's draining. And I also often wonder if people are more overwhelmed by that, than they are actually by the circumstances that are actually by the, you know, the situation that they're going through?

Daniel Franco: 41:34

Yeah, it's funny. Behind me, there's a book that I read, when I was starting off, my journey was given to me quite early, which is the thinking Grow Rich, Napoleon Hill classic, but in their language was a huge driver in the way you talk to yourself. Right? That you know, give yourself affirmation every day, think positively visualize. So the secret the book, The Secret, the law of attraction, all this? I don't believe hard and fast, exactly what they're saying. And the way they've spun it. It's all you know, woowoo. But from like, from a foundational point of view of being optimistic in the sense of what is the best case scenario, when you talk about optimistic realist, what is the best case scenario that we can achieve out of this, right? This time for that, you know, it's the old saying, shoot for the stars, shoot for the stars. And if he hit the moon, then you're still in a good position. Right. So it's all it's all the above? And I think for for you, and may, it's something that we, like you said is one of our core values is optimism. But it's something that we've really trained ourself to become optimistic. And that's not to say, when we watch the news, we don't get that sick feeling, right? I get that sick feeling every time Marshall Spurrier and next, and Stevens come on the, on the television, there's this sense of anxiety that comes almost post traumatic stress that that that seems seen, but then you look, then once you take that away, think about things logically, what's the best case scenario? What's the worst case scenario? Okay, well, let's do everything in our power to position ourselves for that best case scenario. That's optimism, right? Let's see, where is the pessimism comes from? Well, it's all it's all useless. Right? Let's try. So, optimism, like you said, 100% is not walking around thinking that everything's random dandy. It's, it's not gonna work like that. It just doesn't work like that. Things just don't happen. You actually have to get up and make it happen, right? You have to get up and improve or do something different, you know, that word of 2020 pivot, right, you have to do something that will position yourself so that you can, can, you know, gain some extra? Yeah,

Michelle Holland: 43:53

yeah. I think it's really important as well to think about it actually is okay, not to be optimistic at times. It really is. You know, I mean, I, I give myself what I call my 24 hours of wallow, right? So if something happens, and it's something that's, you know, I'm finding overwhelming or I'm finding that I've had a, you know, a, quite an emotional response to it. And it feels quite negative or feels heavy on my shoulders, I say to myself, Okay, you can have up to 24 hours of wallow in this moment. Right? You can feel sorry for yourself, you can feel whatever you want to feel right. If you want to feel angry, go feel angry. If you want to feel sad, you go feel sad, if you want to feel, you know, frustrated with everyone around you, then you can feel that. And that's my 24 hours and wallowing in my emotions and I use the term wallow because what I want to do is action orient myself to go I don't want to just stay there. Like I want to feel the emotions and I want to be able to go Yeah, I'm experiencing this, and this is where I am in this time. But I don't want to get trapped in the emotion, right. So I say, the 24 hours of wallow, more often than not, it's 10 minutes or half an hour, you know, sometimes yes, I'm going home and I'm spending the evening, you know, watching stupid TV and having a glass of wine and going, Okay, now I feel a little bit better. And but it's taken a few hours to get me out of that. But again, it's the power of language, I find that if I can go or I've got myself 24 hours of wallow time, you know, I'll just wallow in this emotion and float around in it. To me, it's also something that's external. You know, even though emotions are internal, I go, Okay, it's something I can deal with. Because it's like, I'm just little chilly wobbling around in this, you know, state whatever state I'm in. And that means that I can get out of it. So it's not that it's taken hold of me, I'm not going to be angry forever. At this circumstance. My grandmother said to me, and this is one of the best learnings she gave me was when I think she was interesting was must have been in her 80s When we were having this conversation. And I remember saying to her at one point, you know, my granddad was a little tough to deal with. Sometimes they'll say, man, you know, how do you how did you deal with him, you know, all these years and you're married for like, 50 odd years, and you've lived this big life and, and she said to me, she goes, you know, she's we had our ups and downs through our marriage, and we had some really tough times. And she said, you know, and then I was sad at times. I know this. I know it intellectually. I know, I was sad. She lost a baby through stillbirth, right. So she's like, I know, I was sad about that. I know, I felt that. But it's an intellectual thing. Now. It's, it's literally just something that is a memory. It's not something that I've taken into my body. And when I thought about it, I'm like, man, it's so true. Like, when you look back over your life, you can go. Yeah, I know. It was really angry about that. But now, now I'm not like I don't I don't feel it at all. Yeah, no, I was really devastated and filled with grief. But oh, hang on now I'm not. Right. So and that I think, to me is managing through the emotion and not getting not getting captured by not getting stuck in it. And to be honest, the people that I see that are, you know, where you would go, okay, are they're pessimistic. I don't know if they're pessimistic. But I think probably what they are is stuck in the negativity. They're stuck in the in the sadness, they're stuck in the grief, they're stuck in it. Because they, they've almost wrapped it up in their identity. I'm now a person who is grief filled. I'm now a person who's angry all the time. I'm now a person who is, right. And it's based in the past without sort of moving through it, like managing through it and moving through it, which is something that every single person has the capacity to do.

Daniel Franco: 48:05

Yeah, well, yeah. Psychologist by any stretch in this, so this, this start getting deep, but I think one thing that I am hearing, and one thing that's really helped me, it's a saying that's really helped me, which I think talks to what you're saying is that is the quote, This too shall pass, right. And when you look back at things that have happened, you've gotten through it, right. And there's just a another, there's a, there's a book that I really love, and it is very alpha male, and I'm not sure it's the top of everyone's list, but it's the David Goggins book can't hurt me, which is where he talks about calluses of the mild calluses of the brain, and every sort of situation that you go through every really hard knock that you get your building just yet another callus within your brain that you can get through. And that's what builds the resilience. The one thing I do want to pick you up on or really deep dive into, I should say, is the, when you say to yourself, I'm going to wallow in this. It's you're very self aware in that moment that you are wallowing right. And that's something so catching yourself is a really difficult exercise to do or behavior to adopt. How did you get to the point where you're so self aware to realize that your thought process is starting to live?

Michelle Holland: 49:27

Yeah. So just to be clear, I say to myself, you're allowed to wallow for 24 hours in this right so I give myself permission to do it. Yeah. So I'm not telling myself don't do it. Yeah, yeah. But it's permission to feel permission to feel is really what it is. And there's actually a great book by Mark Brackett, his name is and it's called Permission to Fail. And and he talks about almost the the structure elements of being able to move through emotion and really tackle it. So I think personally, and I can only speak from personal experience here, but my personal experience has been that I spent probably the first 25 to 30 years of my life compartmentalizing, and being very, an avoiding emotion. Because I felt that I had to, you know, I came to Australia when I was nine years old. And that was, you know, I was just came here with my parents are all of my family were left behind overseas. So, you know, when you think about that, as a nine year old, essentially, I've lost all of my family, right? It's huge, right? So it's actually quite a quite a trauma that we don't actually think about it being a trauma, but it is, you know, in my nine year old self, when I now no longer have a family, right and no longer have a family. So I had to compartmentalize that, because I also was very aware that my parents had brought me to this new country, to give us better opportunities. So this is where that inauthentic optimism kind of starts to play out for people. And that's when it definitely played out for me was I have to be positive about this experience, even though I hate it here. Like I hated Australia when I first came, because I was bullied all the time for the way I spoke. Right? So the first probably four or five years of my experience of Australia was that everybody here and I used the term every so that's the everyone, because that's where I was. Everyone is horrible here. Every Australian is a bully. Every Australian thinks that I don't belong here. Right? So that's where I was at. And I started competing compartmentalizing. So if you're bullied at school, you shut yourself down. That's just what that's what I did. I shut myself down. So it's like, you can't hurt me. If I don't feel you can't hurt me. And I reckon I went through until I was about in my late 20s, at least, before I started to go, this is not a good place for me to be like, This is not okay for me. But it took me at least another 10 years to be able to start working through that. And then it took me another probably 10 years after that, before I got to the place where I'm at. Right. So if you're quick with maths, you know how old I am now. Yeah, I mentioned Exactly. Really, when I think about it, it was It wasn't until the end of 2019, where I had quite a significant burnout, physical burnout, and which was actually an emotional burnout. But it manifested physically, that I started to really think about, I need to do this differently, I need to do it differently. I always had my 24 hours permission to wallow kind of situation, because I think at that time, it was also I was using it as an avoidance technique. So it's like, I don't want to feel the emotion. So I'm just gonna be okay with the emotion for a bit. But I really wasn't, I really wasn't. So it takes a long time to really sort that stuff out. And I know, it sounds really kitsch. But you know, when you go past your 40th birthday, you really do start to go, Hey, okay, I'm seeing the, I'm seeing the finish line over there. It's way closer than it used to be. And for the last four years, this is how I've behaved in a lot of it's not really serving me. You know, and you start letting go of that need to be everything to everyone. And I don't know if it's the 40th birthday, or it's just that period of life, or, you know, my children are a bit older now. And I was you know, doing okay, my career. So it's period of life rather than age, let's say. But I know there's a lot of people out there that have experienced the same thing that you know, now into their 40s or 50s. They're like apps, all that crap that used to happen whenever I don't care as much anymore. And the reality is most of them don't care as much anymore. And it's not a negative not caring. It's not a malicious not caring, it's not avoiding not caring, it's actually going, Hey, I'm actually okay the way I am and I don't need to. I don't need to be that person anymore. I can still feel the way I'm feeling I can still get on with life. And I'm okay, right? That's not everybody. Believe me. I've met a lot of 55 65 70 year olds that still behave like they're, you know, 12 and they haven't mature emotionally. But, you know, it does happen for a lot of people. But I generally think that it doesn't happen unless you put the work and effort into making it happen. So I've done personally, a lot of personal work, including therapy, including deep diving with psychologist etc, etc, to really understand my own personal experiences and how to manage through that. So I've, I've done a lot of that work myself. But I've done a lot of it by myself. I remember in math, it was in my late 20s, when I first picked up Dr. Phil's life matters book. And he talks about, you know, the, what is it the 1010 pivotal moments, the seven pivotal questions and the five pivotal people. And so really understanding those helps you understand where you are in life. So I remember doing that in my late 20s. I think that was probably the start of the process, you know, gotta love Dr. Phil, of course.

Daniel Franco: 55:57

Yeah, I think I think I think it's a, it's a really important point is that, especially for the leaders or the people who are listening into this podcast is that we have business strategies, we have business plans, we have business goals that we work through every single day. And it's really scary. And I don't know the exact percentage on this. But I believe it's scary, that we actually don't have those plans and strategies for our life, right. So we're very good at writing down what's best for the business, but not very good at what's writing down writing down what's best for us. So for me, that was a big learning curve into becoming much more optimistic and becoming much more self aware and much more comfortable with my emotions and being able to deal with them. Lastly, like you, I definitely, I definitely go through those emotions. And there are some days, I just don't want to speak to any everyone but it's about because of what I'm doing is trying to sort out what's going on in my head and try to figure out a logical solution in which I can get through this or how I get past it. So the picking up of a book, I read and as you can see, there's a lot of books in the background here is I read based on mood I read based on what is my or whatever gap. So I kind of look. And if you've ever played a game on the gamer by heart it as a child, I grew up playing a lot of games, and you would create your own avatars, right? So you would create someone, and I would always create someone that looked like me. So he was a strapping young man

Michelle Holland: 57:34

heads full of hair.

Daniel Franco: 57:37

And he had looked ahead, and and so you would you would, I would create this character and you could build the the strengths and weaknesses. And let's say it's a soccer game, and there's agility, the speed, there's power, the strength all the above and you regard which one kind of suits me, right? How would I rate myself if I was going to be and put myself into this soccer game? And so I actually took that and almost made a list for my life and go, what is what are my strengths for life? Like? What is my listening skills? Like? What is my empathy skills look like? What does my compassion skills look like? What does my leadership skills look like? And I would almost rank them out of 100. Right? So you would say, actually, my listening skills are 50. At this point, I was definitely one that I was a really horrible listener. And so I put in a lot of time and effort into becoming better. But I found books on to becoming a better listener, I found books on empathy, I found books on how do we improve in those areas. And I really sort of went down this path of learning for myself as to what I believe my gaps are. And then from that, you really understand your strengths as well. So you can start working on them and tweaking them and finding little things. So that was just, you talked about 10 years plus 10 years, and it is definitely a journey. It's definitely something you know, you're not going to change overnight, but

Michelle Holland: 59:04

it's a long term. Yeah, And I think the the reality is, is that everything worth having takes a long time to get, right. So it doesn't happen. Just you know, overnight, we could say, you know, go be optimistic, put a smile on your face, and away you go. But that's not true. I am curious. So Dan, I was listening, thinking, wow, that's really cool. Because someone's like, you've built your avatar for life. You've got this vision in your mind about who you want to be. I'm curious about what the benefits has been for you looking like now looking forward as well. But has there been anything that you've built into the avatar that's held you back?

Daniel Franco: 59:47

Well, that's that's a good question. Is this the look of everything there's there's everything that that He has the ability to hold you back. Right? So it really is about application for me, one thing that I really focused on was becoming very aware of the surroundings and and almost trying to lead and grow myself to a point where I can achieve anything, right? So in actual fact, my mindset is I can achieve anything, tell me what I need to do. And I'll go and do it, right. Like that's an, if I can't do it in that particular time, I'll pick up a book or I'll seek a mentor, I'll speak to a coach or whatever it might be. And I'll find the way to deliver on that. What actually happens to me now is that I get so caught up in what I'm doing that if I don't achieve it, I actually really really hurts me internally. So I don't know what behavior that is. So I don't know where to put that on the avatar of how to fix that problem, because and it's and that was, like conversation that I was having. With Erma, and our last podcast, is control is one thing that I don't know, maybe I've got too much, or maybe I'm maxed out in control. How do I actually bring that back? How do I actually make the avatar go the other way? So these are sort of things that I'm trying to work out in my own mind. Because when I don't have control, that's when anxiety kicks in. That's when the blood starts to boil. That's all those sorts of triggers that sort of set off. And for me, it's really about how do I, how do I actually become comfortable with others taking the lead? How do I become comfortable with the situation? Just playing it out? Even though I saw it didn't wasn't gonna play out that way? How do I become comfortable with that situation? So that's one thing that I'm really trying to work on, personally, and I know a lot of people go through the same sort of scenarios in their life, it's, so we're

Michelle Holland: 1:02:02

honestly, no idea. Absolutely. I think it's a beautiful example of the identity struggles that we can have in life as well. And, you know, when you think back to what I was saying before, about, you know, sometimes we can use optimism to mask everything. And if we start to believe that this is just who we are, that we have to, you know, just like pound down all the bad stuff and push it away. Because I'm, I'm just optimistic, we can get wrapped up in that identity and then lose so much around it, you know, but I'm interested as well of exploring, because I mean, we optimism, obviously, is that an emotional experience that we have as humans and individuals, and a lot of optimism sits within us. But when we're looking at it from a group, point of view, or we're looking at it from an organizational point of view, and, you know, you mentioned earlier on about, you know, the workforce issues, and I think that's a really probably practical, pragmatic example of where optimism is almost going to hold you back from being able to be practical in what we need to be doing. Because, you know, the reality is, is that, you know, the media are telling us that there's the great resignation, the media are telling us constantly that, you know, the, the the workforce in the in the employment market is really tough for employers, you know, and we're telling ourselves that constantly as well. So that's going back to that words, and messaging is really powerful. So the more we tell ourselves, that there are no great people out there, then the more we will experience not being able to find great people. And and I find it, yeah,

Daniel Franco: 1:03:57

can i just jump into that you find it if we're telling ourselves that there aren't great people, right? Because that's what the media is telling us, we then tell ourselves, actually is gonna be really hard. There's no school, there's no skill set out there that we need. Do you believe that you walk into that recruitment office, while we're also in the interview, when you are recruiting with that mindset, that you don't see the opportunity and the person sitting out of the room?

Michelle Holland: 1:04:23

Absolutely. Yep. Yep, I would say that that probably happens more than it doesn't happen. And as much as we try to be impartial, if we are entering a room with that in our mind, then that's what we will see. Right? So the person won't be as great. Whatever we've defined is great. Because the reality is, is we don't take the time to define what great people actually are like what is a great person, for our business? What is a great person in our mind, like what I believe is a great person is different than what you believe is great person. So, you know, even just using those terminology, there's no great people out there, actually there are, there are really, really bright people out there. But they might not fit into the box that you've created. And I think this is a really important distinction between, you know, creating a culture that actually welcomes people into the organization, versus creating a culture that has a one size fits all approach, and you have to fit within this box. So, you know, maybe I am a more negative person, right? And we're all optimistic here. So you're not allowed to come into our business? Well, actually, what we're missing out on then is potentially some realistic conversations, potentially some robust debate around some things that we believe to be true, we lose the opportunity to be a positive influence in that person's life as well. Right? So if we've gone, they're not that great person that we're looking for, because I've got this, you know, negative approach, it's like, isn't a negative approach? Is that just the language that we're using the definition that we've put on to it? Or actually, are they just working in a very critical minded place? Like they're really thinking deeply about something, and they are exploring all of the sides, not just the positive and negative, but they're exploring it as a whole. And sometimes there's, you know, negative crappy stuff in those holes. So it's like, what, what are we looking for? Firstly, and then what are we actually experiencing? And it's coming from our own? This is where you get into that, you know, cognitive bias and all the rest of it stuff is well, yeah. But I think one of the things that I've noticed about organizations and you know, this negativity around Oh, there's nobody out there, and I can't find anybody is, you know, we go back to that growth and fixed mindset. We've got a real fixed mindset around workforce, like a really fixed mindset around workforce. It's almost like, I've designed this job, which looks like this. And then a person applies for it all the kind of match exactly. And it's like, oh, no, they're not right. Yeah, exactly. Rather than going, You know what, I've designed this job. This is a design of me, I've written this down. I've, you know, I call it cutting the pie. I've cut the pie in the way I've wanted to cut the pie. What happens if I go actually, what if I did that? All of a sudden, I've got a great match, haven't I? And then this can go somewhere else? Why don't we do more of that?

Daniel Franco: 1:07:52

So for the people, oh, sorry.

Michelle Holland: 1:07:53

Yes, I'm doing. Yes. Sorry about that. For the people who are watching on video, you'll see my little hands for the podcast people. So I've got two hands up with five fingers up. And the person that walks into the room has the thumb down. Alright, but we're looking for somebody with five fingers up all the time. Whereas what we can actually do if we put the thumb down on the the actual job that we're looking for, then they match. Right? So

Daniel Franco: 1:08:22

yeah, so what we're saying is that you've we've created the transcription. So we can change correct scription we can change the desire of what we need from the person and the skill sets and you know, the word essential that might be in as part of what's required for their job, we can totally move that and change that if the person has the right attitude, the right behaviors, the right now, and you know, the want and need and desire to be able to achieve, we can change we can be absolutely, yeah. And I think you're 100% right. There's too many times people miss out on jobs like now,

Michelle Holland: 1:08:57

they don't quite feel they don't quite fit. It's like but what do you mean by that? Yeah, really mean by that? They can't do the job. Oh, they probably could do the job. What do you mean by that, then? Oh, well, they just there was something I don't know. Well, that's something I don't know is not a good enough excuse. So then complained about not being able to find good people later on down the track. It's like, you're not always gonna get superstars in your business. You're just not because not everybody in the world is a superstar, right? There are some a handful of superstars. Absolutely. But actually, why can't you just have a star rather than a superstar, right? Why can't you actually just have somebody that's really great and effective in the work that they need to get done? And, you know, a halfway decent person, so they're not upsetting people around them, you know, there's probably way more of them out there.

Daniel Franco: 1:09:50

Oh, there's a sporting analogy that fits in so nicely to that is like, you're better off building a champion team. Absolutely. Champion.

Michelle Holland: 1:09:58

Yes. Yes. It's It's funny you say that because my son Connor, as you know, Dan is a massive fan of soccer like he, he speaks soccer constantly. And he's reading all of these books from coaches and whatnot because he really likes the leadership and management aspect of it. And he was talking about Manchester United, which is his team and has been his team since I think he was about five or six years old. And he said on the weekend, he said, you know, Manchester United are a great example of a club that takes brilliant stars and makes them mediocre. Makes them mediocre, because of the environment in which they are right so you look at Christiana Rinaldo if you if you don't know soccer, you probably still know Cristiano Ronaldo is the number one sports paid the highest sports paid person in the world. And if you're female, you definitely know Cristiano Ronaldo. But he, he's been known as one of the best soccer players in the world for the past probably 10 years or so. So he's gone to Manchester United and is actually, when you view him against other strikers, now seems to be a mediocre striker. This is the power of the group setting. This is the power of the culture, this is the power of getting someone and making them fit within your box. Instead of going actually, we've got this great player who plays in this way, this way. And this way, we don't always play in

Daniel Franco: 1:11:32

Always throwing quotes left, right and center. this way. But to get the best out of him, we need to actually shift the way we're playing, not just get him to shift his play, to meet us. And I thought that was a really great example of what we try and do with workplaces all the time is that we find these really extraordinary people that might have these great ideas and their challenges. And then all of a sudden they start challenging us. And they start saying different things that we say, oh, no, that's not what we want. Oh, no, that's not what I know. No. And then we shut them down and tell them to just get on with the job that we've placed them in here is the hole that we've placed you in new square peg. Right, so round off your corners. That's what we keep telling people round off their corners. But this I mean, Steve Jobs said it best don't hire great people and tell them what to do, hire great people and get them to tell you what to. Yeah. Right. And if you actually live by that, quote, you will find that you will build a much more diverse and much more, then the one that you feel like is the best for your team.

Michelle Holland: 1:12:50

Yeah, absolutely. And that's the things that we are looking at, what can we do to build optimism in 2022. And one of the things that's holding us back from being able to feel optimistic in our workplaces, is that we can't find great people. The technical or the tactical solution to that very complex, adaptive problem is start looking at your like what you're actually looking for, start looking at all of the barriers to entry for all of the great people that are actually out there in your business, start looking at is the position that you've advertised, actually, one where there's talent for? Or can I split that position into three? And do it in a very different way? Is it Do I have to go and hire someone to do all of this job? Or can I hire, you know, a junior person to do part of it? And outsource the wrist? Or can I hire a senior person, like really experienced person to do a quarter of it, and then delegate the rest somewhere else? Right. So we need to be thinking a lot more creatively in our workforces. If we wanting to build an optimism into our workforce, we can't keep being we can't keep just cutting the pie in the exact same way every time and then complain that we can't find somebody to fit within that piece of pie. Or we will stay in our pessimism and negativity if that's the case, right?

Daniel Franco: 1:14:33

You actually, he actually brought up a very good example once, and I'm gonna, I'm probably gonna butcher it a little bit, but it is sort of let's imagine that this three engineers and those three engineers have have each have Let's actually use these random numbers this for engineers, and each of them have 25% of their work is for admin, right? 25, 75% is actually engineering 25% is for I mean, with those four, what we can actually do to in order to actually get more engineering done is if there's an engineering shortage, then let's look about 25%, by four to 100%, we could get an admin person in to cover off, so they then then will suddenly almost gain. And it won't obviously work out as beautifully as the method does. But you, you get this extra productivity or out of those existing employees by just hiring an admin person to take on the extra pressure off. Right. So that in itself is just another way if any new use that example was enough.

Michelle Holland: 1:15:39

Yeah, Well, I mean, the principle is absolutely correct. Yeah, you write them you wait, workout is beautifully or neatly, is that every time but the principle is there. And I know, in the healthcare industry, so I worked in aged care for quite some time. And one of the elements that we were dealing with was we couldn't get qualified nurses, sorry, we couldn't get enough qualified nurses for the positions that we had. And because of the legislation, the way it was written, you had to have a registered, you know, a qualified registered nurse on each shift. So it was like, Well, how do we go about doing that? And really, we started as a as an industry, saying, Well, what can we do so that instead of that registered nurse going around and doing all of the baseline nursing? How can we get that registered nurse to be someone who floated across the entire shift? So we only needed one instead of 10? You know, where could we put the other work and, you know, we came up with things like paraprofessionals, we came up with, you know, the care workers and what they could do the Enrolled nurses and what they could do in being supervised by rather than, you know, they couldn't do it at all before, and now they get signed off. So, and it wasn't a perfect, perfect system by any means. But I'm just using that as an example of getting creative with the way in which we're slicing up our workforce pie, so that we can take advantage of the people who are there. And also make sure that we're giving meaningful work to other people, you know, and delegating so that your example, that administration officer will be far better at the administration than the engineers will be, you know, and you wouldn't have an engineer that would absolutely deny that they'd go yes, please let an admin person do that administration work, because they're way better at it than I am. I'm better at engineering. So let me focus there. You know, in the old days, we used to have jobs that were manager, and administrator, and now we've cut all those out. Because the manager is now a senior professional may have got their own project load and all the rest of it, and they do their administration work. Right. So it's three jobs in one all of a sudden, and we're expecting to find somebody who loves, you know, reconciling their credit card statement at the same time as being strategic and visionary. It's like, come on, like, is it any wonder we're not being very optimistic about the future of our workforces?

Daniel Franco: 1:18:16

Well, from So, moving towards rounding off the conversation, how do we where do we start with where I feel like we've got our backs up against the wall, looking to 2020 It's been a tough start already, right? There's this new variant Omicron, which is ravaging its way through, like we seem to be past the peak now, which is really exciting. And schools going back shortly and all this things are starting to move back into the right direction, some routines potentially coming back, the government have announced introduction of of people back into the offices, the the restrictions are 50% in the in, you know, the cafes, and whatnot are starting to come forward now. So we're starting to see the move in the right direction. But we could still be holding men and just watching. What's your advice for leaders now, as of today, and how to apply themselves? You know, we're right at the end of January, January 31. Today, looking into February and beyond. What can we do to really position ourselves to be in the right frame of mind for the rest of us?

Michelle Holland: 1:19:37

I think the most powerful thing that you can do as a leader is something you personally can do is acceptance. Acceptance is actually the biggest, powerful motivator towards optimism than anything else. Acceptance and let me just explain so accepting where we're at in the moment, right, excepting where we're at in the moment. So if you know Eckhart Tolle Lee's work, you'll know the power of now and the power of you know this moment. Really, really important lessons for life, the stress that we feel comes from the story that we've created about the thing that we want, right? So we've created this story, the stress comes from sitting in this present moment, wishing for that, and knowing that it's not here. So that's where that stress is, right? Whereas instead, we go, we accept where we are, and we find the opportunities in where we are. So yeah, we've come back into 2022. And we've got this Omicron variant. What we know to be true, is, it's not as deadly as the ones in the past. Yay, that's awesome. Right? There's something to be optimistic about. People are getting over it quicker. Yay. That's something to be optimistic about. Right? Yep. The government has made some decisions that not all of us agree with. And we're all working from home again. Okay, well, this the things that I can do about working from home, I can connect to different people via like doing this, this is an opportunity that we wouldn't have done if we weren't working from home, right. So it's like, we need to find the opportunities and the things that we can control, and be able to accept, there's things that we cannot control in life. And when we get ourselves wrapped up in all the things that we can't control, then, you know, it's a, it's an internal thing for all of us. So personally, as a leader, I need to be able to be mature enough to accept where I am, except where we all are. And that doesn't mean that I'm condoning it. Right. So condoning and acceptance is a very, very different thing. Acceptance is, this is where I'm at. And I need my opportunities here. Rather than always waiting for the next thing, because we'll be always waiting, there will always be something right. Every time, there's always something coming over the hill. You know, whether if we look back over all the years, since this year, past, probably the last 100 years, in every year, you'll find something that we could have went, Oh my God, that's the worst thing ever. Right. And the last, I think the last two and a half years have been so hard, because it's been such a collective of, of emotional load that the media has been promoting, like you wouldn't believe because what do they do they make them they make their money out of people's fear, whoo, this is a great time for them. Great opportunities. But for leaders, it's let's accept where we are, right? Now, let's make make the most of where we are. Let's do what we can do. So if you constantly say, I can't do that, because that's what we call a scarcity. mindset. You know, there's only a, I can't do that, because there's not enough time. There's not enough resources. There's not enough, you know, the government hasn't made that decision yet. I can't do this, I can't do that. Instead of that, go, Okay, I can't do that. What can I do? That's a really simple way of starting to build optimism in yourself and your teams. Because we can all sit there and go, Okay, can't do that. But what can I do? And it might be really small. You know, how can I make this this change happen? And it might be really, really tiny. But you know, baby steps are still momentum.

Daniel Franco: 1:23:41

Yeah, I echo what you say there. Because when you talk about accepting what is, and I don't want to go woowoo here, but when you do look at the universe, in all its glory in the way it works. This day, there's not right, the tide goes in, tide goes out. The sun goes up, the sun goes down, right. So there's winter this summer, I feel like we are have gone through a really tough winter. Like, that's where we're at. And we need to now accept that, like the tough winter is being wet. Whether we're halfway through it almost at the end of it. We're just beginning. I don't know, no one knows. But we need to accept it that we're in this winter. But you can still be really warm and fuzzy in winter, right? Yeah. Yeah, correct. So, for me, it's about accepting where we are, and finding the silver lining. And the opportunities that exist within that winter or the you know, the yin and the yang, all this sort of stuff, that is things that we hear so often. And planning for the future is much of the same. We are going to come across some really great times in our life and businesses, and we're going to come across some really horrible times in our life and businesses. And having that expectation, and understanding that that's what's gonna happen. I actually believe makes it easier, right? Because you're not setting yourself up for this is always going to be great. When you have that expectation. And you put in that, you know, you talked about having that thought process of this is the way I think things should happen. When you think things should happen in this certain way, and they don't, is generally when you get really upset and anxious. lately. Yeah. So having some preparedness that, you know, what, potentially, this is the worst case scenario, but I'm gonna fall in anyway.

Michelle Holland: 1:25:41

Yes, I totally agree with you. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's, you know, we need to get out of this mindset of, you know, optimism being everything is everything's gonna be okay. And be really pragmatic about it and go, you know, what, this too shall pass, you know, things, things may or may not be okay. And that's actually okay. Because I can make some decisions in that. I've got choices in that. So I'm going to be really pragmatic in the way in which I'm approaching this negative situation. And it doesn't mean that I have to pretend that I'm happy about it. That's not, it's got nothing to do with it. So it's about I accept that this negative situation is happening. And it's horrible. And I'm sad, or I'm angry, or both, probably, I'm frustrated. And I'm going to be that way. And what can I do about it? So being really pragmatic, to me is one of the keys to being able to be optimistic. You know,

Daniel Franco: 1:26:52

and I think it's important to point that what I'm going to do about it can

Michelle Holland: 1:26:55

totally Yeah, that's it because you've got a choice. Yes, it's a choice.

Daniel Franco: 1:27:00

You can absolutely gonna I'm just gonna sit salutely Yes. Or no, you know, I'm just gonna park that. Yes. That aside, like, I think that's really important. You don't always have to be doing something.

Michelle Holland: 1:27:12

Yes. Thank you for saying that, Dan. Because I think that's a really important thing, particularly for if we're talking about leaders in business, and particularly leaders and big business. There is almost like this identity around leadership that you always have to have the answer is you always have to be moving forward. You always have to do this and that. You know, what, actually, sometimes the best thing to do is just go, man is the crappy time, let's just talk together about it. Do you want to go out to lunch? Let's everybody just go out to lunch? Or should we just knock off half an hour early? Because you know what? I want to go home and hug my dog today. You know, and that's okay, that's okay. The world will still be here when we get back the next morning. Right? You know, the world's not gonna stop turning because you've decided to, you know, go home half an hour early or not have a very productive meeting in the afternoon, as the world is still going to turn. It won't if we do that every single day for every single meeting. No, it'll stop turning. That's when we get stuck in that, you know, that negative emotion. It's a real balancing act between that and there is I think, a maturity in it. And we call it you know, obviously there's the Carol Dweck. Research around growth mindset and fixed mindset or infinite mindset. If you're a Simon Sinek fan, or whatever you want to call it, it's really about that ability to accept where you are, and make decisions to do something different into the future. That to me is it's very simple form. But yeah, whatever, whatever philosophy you like to work to.

Daniel Franco: 1:28:55

So one last question before we round up the podcast. What is What are you most excited about? For 2022?

Michelle Holland: 1:29:08

What am I most excited about? 2022? I find that a difficult question because excitement is such a limited emotion like it's such a fleeting thing. So let me let me rephrase it in my own brain to what do I think 2022 is going to bring? For me. That's better than last year in the year before. So I think with 2022, I'm in a much better place. Emotionally. I'm in a much better place. Personally, as far as the work that I've been doing myself to manage, you know, some of the hard stuff. I think 2022 is going to give me the opportunity to put that into practice now. because I'm in a in a a Weller position, I don't know that's a word. I think I just made that up Willer more well positioned. I'm healthier, that's probably you know. So I've got the opportunity to put more of the things that I want to do into practice this year. So I think that's, that's really important. I, I believe that 2022 is gonna be a year of getting maybe back to basics is probably a way not back to normal. But back to basics again, you know, that we get back to a place or get get to a place and even back to we get to a place where we can enjoy living our lives and running our businesses without the constant threat of the world shutting down. I am very optimistic about that, as far as 2022 is concerned, and as love to say that something might not come around the corner is might not, you know, something negative might happen, and all the rest of it absolutely will. But I feel that we've done enough learning as a society over the last couple of years to recognize that we need to start doing things differently to manage these, you know, pandemics if they come? So I'm pretty optimistic about that. What about you? Yeah.

Daniel Franco: 1:31:41

I am. Okay, you're right, the question, excited is probably the wrong word. What am I looking forward to? What am I optimistic about? Should we use that word, we've gone through a lot, that was a big Lau, you know, we're in the heart of winter, in 2020. From a business perspective. 2022 There's some really exciting things coming in the way of our business. And I think both I'm both scared, and, and optimistic, like for me, this year will be probably one of the biggies of, of my learning in both how to be a leader in both how to set up a business for scale, in both All in all, the above of me personally, and how to manage my own self and my own time and my own family and, and pursue the loving relationships that I want to whilst trying to build the success within us and ourselves in the team. So there's, I can already see there's a lot of management of self and expectation setting and goal setting. So yeah, we're doing some really wonderful things. And like our team is just

Michelle Holland: 1:33:11

the next level. Yeah, yeah,

Daniel Franco: 1:33:13

I don't, I don't know

Michelle Holland: 1:33:14

the next level. Just really, I'm, if I'm gonna use the term excited, I am excited to see how the team can really come together and build something even more amazing than what we've got. Because we've got such great people in our, in our team. Yeah.

Daniel Franco: 1:33:33

Great. And I think that's the, I think that's the bit that I'm scared of, is the you know, because you were as a leader, you're always like, what do we do to keep making these people happy? What do we do to keep making them, so they're fulfilled in their work. And so we can continue growing and getting more similar, more diverse, or whatever word you want to people in who are willing to achieve? So there's so much that goes on, as a as a leader of accompanies, that you want all these great things, but then you've got to be really, and I think you and I, I've explained to you that today. It's like I'm just waiting for another, you know, loop in that role to come up because it's exactly what it is. So I think for me, what am I looking forward to? Is the opportunities and realizing those opportunities for 22. But I don't want to do it with one. Oh,

Michelle Holland: 1:34:27

I think yeah, and I think that's important. That's part of that pragmatic realism in optimism. His optimism is something like everything, I believe that there is a macro to it and a micro to it. And then there's everything in between. So the micro of how I'm feeling optimistic personally, and how I'm getting on with things and learning and growing up to the macro of what the world is doing as a global pandemic and how that works. everything in between, you know as to how our our team is responding to that into how we're growing our business and growing our culture. So that because I'll give you the same advice I would give any leader is if you want to keep your people you focus on your culture, right? So you focus on your business, you don't focus on making a person happy, you focus on creating an environment, whereby people can be happy and they can be fulfilled, and they can take on opportunities. And that's really, what in flourish. That's exactly right. That's really our opportunity. Moving forward is we've got a great foundation in really experienced and capable people who are great at the work that they are great at the jobs they do, they work well together, and they enjoy working with us. That's the foundation. That's not the end point. That's the foundation. So now it's next what's next for us, like what's next level for us so that we don't worry about people coming and going, because we know that people always be coming and we know people will go as well. But the reason that they'll go is, you know, for things that are out of our control.

Daniel Franco: 1:36:04

Correct. Very good. 2020 20

Michelle Holland: 1:36:09

on That's right, we're gonna be pragmatic and optimistic.

Daniel Franco: 1:36:15

Absolutely. I think we're ready. Yeah. Being one month and

Michelle Holland: 1:36:18

I can't believe I feel like I've blinked and January's disappeared, like little.

Daniel Franco: 1:36:24

What I am gonna be happy about is no one. I think from February 1, you can't be

Michelle Holland: 1:36:28

not allowed to do that anymore.

Daniel Franco: 1:36:35

Anyone that says? Tomato? Very good. Thank you very much. Today, Michelle, it's always great. Hearing your insights. And yeah, just obviously, yeah, you're pragmatic approach to, to business to building culture to be a great leader to, to really working towards an optimistic future, as well. Thank you for

Michelle Holland: 1:37:00

Thank you Dan. It's been great. And they're, you know, optimistic about the podcast moving forward. You've already had one of my favorite people in the world on. So far, Irma, Irma, Rene love, it's one of my people say yes. Yeah.

Daniel Franco: 1:37:15

She's really a lot of positive comments from that podcast only been out for a couple of days. And it's Jesus. She's been

Michelle Holland: 1:37:24

absolutely good one. Thank

Daniel Franco: 1:37:27

Excellent. Thank you, everyone. We'll catch you next time. Yes, have a great year and check into the podcast, we would love to. We'd love to have you on the journey. And we're going to be speaking to some really wonderful and amazing people throughout the year. We've got it. We've got a great list of people already booked in, always with the same thought patterns of all my questions always come from a point of curiosity, and learning and how do we how do we get the best information in the shortest amount of time possible. So that's where we're going. Alright guys, take care. Bye. Bye. Thanks, Michelle. Thanks for listening to the podcast. Or you can check out the show notes if there was anything of interest to you and find out more about us at Synergy iq.com.au. I am going to ask though, if you did like the podcast, it would absolutely mean the world to me if you could subscribe, write and review. And if you didn't like it, that's alright too. There's no need to do anything. Take care guys. All the best.

Synergy IQ: 1:38:28

Thank you once again for joining us here at creating synergy. It's been great spending this time with you. Please jump on to the synergy IQ Facebook and LinkedIn page where the discussion continues after the show. Join our mailing list so you'll know what's happening next at Synergy iq.com.au. And of course don't forget to subscribe to this podcast. And if you really enjoyed it, please share it with your friends.