Synergy IQ: 0:01

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Daniel Franco: 0:20

Hi there synergises and welcome back to another episode of the Creating Synergy Podcast. My name is Daniel Franco and today we have the amazing in one and only Erma Ranieri on the show. Appointed as the Commissioner for public sector employment in 2014. Erma is driven to create a world leading public sector that delivers great results and outcomes for the South Australian community through an agile, flexible and inclusive workplace. Erma's extensive career is focused on helping organisations optimize productivity and employee well being and expanding roles across the private and public sectors. Erma has been described to me as a great leader who creates more great leaders and her amazing qualities haven't gone unnoticed. In 2021, she was awarded the Public Service Medal and added to the honors list for a long standing advocacy of gender equality, diversity and disability employment, as well as a commitment to the public sector reform. Previous to this, she's also won the Telstra Businesswoman of the Year Award, a feat not achieved by a person in government before. In this episode, Erma and I touch on her journey from being born in a small village on the outskirts of Greece in Macedonia, all the way to where she finds herself as the Commissioner for public sector employment. We also deep dived into her journey where she describes that her parents didn't really allow her to study and wanted her to be a home carer, which is an old, traditional and European way of thinking early didn't want this for herself. And she embarked on carving out a very successful career in the public sector, where she met some amazing mentors that gave her the foundation to flourish. We talked about leadership a lot, and her superpower of creating other great leaders. We went on to discuss her thoughts about how to engage people, teams and organizations through large scale change. And then we also talked on the impacts of COVID, and all the learnings that come from that. And she mentioned that there was an impending announcement, which what we've known now is that it's the return to work of the public sector of 25% capacity, which is a great step forward towards the long path back to normality. I know you're absolutely going to love this chat with Emma. And if you'd like to learn more about some of the other amazing leaders that we've had on the creating synergy podcast, then be sure to jump on our website at Synergy iq.com.au Or check us out at creating synergy podcast on all the podcast outlets. Cheers. So welcome back to the creating synergy podcast. My name is Daniel Franco. And today we have an amazing Erma Ranieri on the show. So thank you very much for joining us is the Commissioner of, of the public sector. It's a very, very important role. Yes, I think so for the people of South Australia. So a little bit about you. Who is who is Erma, tell us a little bit about your your journey and how you got to where you are today.

Erma Ranieri: 3:25

Well, it's it's a long history for me in terms of South Australia and how my family migrated here. I wasn't born here. My family come from a village in the northern tip of Greece. They identify as Macedonian. So then in itself bought some challenges. Yeah. I was very young. When we came to Australia. Of course, South Australia was where they settled market gardeners in fallen garden.

Daniel Franco: 3:52

Yes, yes. Your family that exact same

Erma Ranieri: 3:55

Italian background. So there was a mix of Bulgarians. English that had actually come along Italian so we were very multicultural know what it's like to kind of, I guess not be part of the streamlined group in, in a in a suburb, whatever. So the reason why I mentioned that is that what I do remember a pivotal point was in market gardening. They got a lot of help from government, I think was the Department of Agriculture. And you know, they were growing tomatoes. And when there were issues with it, at the time, they would have kind of officers that came from agriculture department to come and help them with their crops and things like that. And what I recall my parents saying is, gee, this is different from where we came from, because they were very poor in that village, because there are people here that are going to help us so it actually stuck in my mind and I thought, you know, what is government what does that actually mean but never really gave it a second thought. And then being the good immigrant parents that they will her through my high school years, Mum. And while I studied, and I particularly had a very strong interest in Australian history, believe it or not, they basically wanted me to go and work. I did get into psychology, but they wouldn't allow me to actually go to university, which was actually quite disappointing for me. However, your road that you travel manages to get you somewhere. So I actually ended up because a friend of mine was working in the Department of Motor registration. And she was filing registration cuz she said, come and work in the government. And I said, Oh, government, I remember mum and dad thinking that they were pretty good. So I went to work as a school laborer through the school labor program in the Department of Transport, which was motor registration, filing registration cards. So what was really good is I had a great mentor, and that was a registrar of motor vehicles, he really recognized that I was a complete extrovert. And he said, look, and I was young, I was probably, I think, 19 or 17, or something like that. And he said, Look, why don't you go and study? And I said, Oh, well, I was trying to get into psychology because I wanted to be a psychologist. So something about human behavior that interests me, and B, sit, I go to the Institute of Technology and do business management. The rest is history. I did do that. And I majored in personnel and industrial relations at the time, and had a strong interest in human resources. So he, he quickly got me to work in the human resources, part of motor registration. And I worked my way up through the public service. But I remember looking at the commissioner for public sector employment role, and saying to myself, I really want that role, because that's where change can occur. But I'm sure you asked me some more questions. Oh,

Daniel Franco: 6:44

absolutely. I just think to point out isn't an amazing, I'm going to point out the gentleman who told you to go back into study and the the shift in direction in your life that that happened at that point, I think that's just something we really need to all need to understand as our roles as leaders is that that's the impact that we can have on someone's life, right? It's not about just trying to get the outcomes and outputs. It's the it's the impacts that we can have on individuals. I agree.

Erma Ranieri: 7:12

It's, it's funny, there's two pivotal points for me now both males, which, which I, you know, I need to point out, there was a person, there was a teacher at at high school, that basically believed in me, because my parents got me to do a commercial course typing, I didn't want to be a secretary. And that's what they had chosen for my path. And that's what they knew. There was a teacher that believed in me to pick up modern European history in Australian history. And then there was my mentor at work another mile, the registrar at the time, that actually believed in me. And I think my passion for what I do is young people in particular, need people to believe in them. And for them to believe in themselves to go where they need to go. There were two very pivotal points where I made some major decisions about the path that I would take.

Daniel Franco: 8:00

Yeah, that's, that's amazing. Yeah. Speaking of teachers in high school, yeah. Oh, your brother. It was my old teacher. Yeah. Yes. He was at St. Michael's College down at Henley beach. I do remember getting told off a few times by bless Mr. Georgiou. Yeah, Mr. Franco Sit down, please. Yes, was quite often, anyway, enough about me. So your profile states that you're a leader, you're an advocate, you're driven by purpose and values, and we can hear that already in the language. So can you tell us a little bit about your purpose? You talked about government really wanting to connect and all that, but can you tell us about your purpose within now and then the values that you work to on an everyday basis,

Erma Ranieri: 8:45

what I'm going to try and do is actually string the story together. So the purpose never leaves you. So my purpose actually started the days that I was, you know, a child of migrant parents, and actually saw the disadvantage that actually, they experienced, but more importantly, how people viewed me, English was my second language. And whilst I had some really good people along the way, my purpose was to make sure that those that don't have the kind of voice that they deserve. I saw privilege in particular ways, whether it was senior positions and how people got there. All I know, is anything that I did, I had to work particularly hard for, firstly, because my parents didn't actually support me in that because all they believed is women, raising children, and being the kind of homemaker which is there's nothing wrong with that. And I ideally wanted that but I wanted something else as well. So my purpose is actually embedded in you know, those two everyone to have a choice to do what they believe that they should do, and we should actually make the working environment I have a very strong interest in, you know, the interplay between people and work. So work is important. It's our economic kind of it, what stimulates what you want in life and the rest of it you need To have that, but you also need to reconcile that with other things like your community work like your cultural group, like your friends, or your children, your partner, that all needs to be reconciled. So if you pull all of that together in my life experience, the role of Commissioner for public sector employment is creating employment conditions that actually reconcile all of that. So if you look at the first work and life project in government, I led that if you look at the very first job share at executive level, I led that or not, because I'm particularly special, but what I did know is that I should have a right to actually be able to go for those things, not because I'd made a choice to have children, or someone else made a choice for me, it was no longer open for me to have those opportunities. So I think if we feel passionate about something, we drive change for that. And the only way I could see driving change for that is if you're the most senior are in policy positions where you could make that change. So I worked very hard in where I worked, and what little change that I could do. So the family and work staff, created breastfeeding rooms, in workplaces did joint projects with uni sa in relation to the work that Barbara pokok did around working life. And then, you know, fast forward to 2022, all the things that we did around flexible work, and the rest of it, we were doing all that fun, I was listening, we were doing that, and we who was listening was great leaders. And I know one of your colleagues worked with me back at UTSA, I was her manager. And I remember in those days talking about these sorts of things, and I was particularly I was laughed at, people kind of go in, you know, you're it's almost like you've got these hippie ideas about workplaces, we basically people need to clock in and clock out, do their work, and do the outcomes. And now fast forward 2022 We were set up for flexible work arrangements. We knew what to do, how do you manage people from a distance? How do you engage with people had leaders actually lead with purpose? So it's a life journey that seems to have allowed me to kind of consolidated in a role where I can influence the largest employer in South Australia.

Daniel Franco: 12:20

Yeah that's an amazing story. The there's so many things that were going through my head, and number one, your parents must be very proud. Right now,

Erma Ranieri: 12:28

you're funny, you should say that. It's kind of mixed. They are. They're extremely proud. My father was particularly proud. I mean, he would have won the Telstra Businesswoman of the Year he had dementia, but I won it sort of the year before he completely kind of couldn't recognize who I was. So he was very proud. I think as a father what's interesting is that kind of that so they sliding doors dad was also a very kind of very male dominated women had a particular role, but he was kind of comfortable with his daughter doing that but but actually had some different expectations of his wife. So I think the that's the gender and I understand those sorts of those generations and those men, my mom is extremely proud. But she she gets worried about the load I take and you know, you how can you do both things. And I remember when the kids were younger, she helped me a lot. She did a lot of the childminding my mom's fantastic in helping me do that. But her her upbringing was it's looking after your children and the home and the rest of it first. Yeah. And but you know, she's she's an absolute star because she actually helped me work law she looked after the children she she had a view about that, but she allowed me to pursue some of that so well, I got the Public Service Medal this year and and when I went to get my medal with the governor, it was my mother I took with me and the photo stands in her in her lounge room now she looks straight at it. So she's proud

Daniel Franco: 14:07

Yeah, so she should be look what my family is the same right we me being the male though I didn't obviously get the the females in our family have received it has changed a lot though. I think my father actually broke the shackles he never actually expected that ever of my of my mother but her her father did the same thing.

Erma Ranieri: 14:32

Make the margin right.

Daniel Franco: 14:33

Yeah, absolutely right so they Yeah, they it was tough and the female if I do know anything that females almost seen as rebellious in that in that sense that they were going out and you know, whereas now we look at them more at being innovative and and free spirited and whatever. I don't know No, none of the words for it, but every You're right, everyone should have an equal opportunity. So amazing, amazing work that you're you're doing.

Erma Ranieri: 15:05

But I don't know if you have a sister, but I think it's what we, as mothers of our own I have a daughter have we have actually instilled in our children? So I think I think we shouldn't give up hope. Because I think if you look back at our generation, and actually what occurred there, we have paved the way for more opportunities for women in particular, but also look, I think there's, we need to watch young men as well, because we have to find their place to get equality means that everyone needs to have opportunity to be their best self, and gender, or you know, whether you're an Aboriginal person, or whether you come from a different cultural background should not matter about any of that we should not see any of that. So those biases need to need to kind of be broken through, we still got a lot of work to do, but we have come a long way.

Daniel Franco: 16:03

So you mentioned the award that you won, which was great. I want to touch on that

Erma Ranieri: 16:07

to a couple of things. One is the Telstra Businesswoman of the Year Award for and I've got the state award, which was absolutely wonderful. I was doing a lot of innovative things within government at the time. And it's rare that someone in government actually wins the because the business woman award. And I think the last woman that won it was two Vardan, who've done some great work in the sort of social services area, one of the things that had happened is always working pretty hard to try and do things differently in government. I wasn't Commissioner, of course, at the time, at the time I got it, I'd become Commissioner, but I was doing a lot of that change at South Australia work, some work that I'd done at UTSA, and the rest of it, but I had a staff member. And this is really important. I had a staff member that was working with me, that saw the amount of work that I was doing. But more importantly, he saw some of the really bad behavior that was occurring in terms of my profile and what it is that I was doing, because I was trying to do things differently. It can often be ugly, when it comes to breaking up barriers and things where sometimes I've rewarded certain people, and to start to call those things out and do things differently can sometimes you know, those that tread those paths, can actually find themselves in some level of conflict because you're changing things. And I remember a staff member saying to me, it was a day before that were closing, I think you should go for the toaster, Businesswoman of the Year, being the person that I am. I said no, I come from a kind of, it's not shame, but it's like I don't need, I don't put your head up to why he put in the application for me, he just got me to, to kind of press send, basically or approve it. And then the rest was history in relation to that. In fast forward, the Public Service middle, it's the same sort of thing, we have a change. I'm a public servant at heart, governments change. And I'm doing a whole lot of work with the new government. I do a lot around Aboriginal employment, we've hit the 50. And he's 53% women in leadership roles. I started at 28%. The rest of it anyway. And I have my moments with this because it's a tough gig. And I watched my children who were adults now, watch me kind of go through what they see as quite traumatic experience to make change. So both my son and daughter decided that they would actually write an application for a public service medal, because that's the ultimate for me is that you're recognized at a national level for the change that you have actually made to people's lives. So what's interesting about the two awards is I didn't put in for any of them. There were people who actually felt strongly enough to go and actually do the work for that. And that, for me, is the bit that I'm the most gracious. And it's about other people feeling like you've made a difference, a difference to their lives. And you've changed things for the better somewhere.

Daniel Franco: 18:57

Yeah. Kudos, well done. So the Institute of Public Administration, Australia, you were recognized on the honors list for that, and the quote was, Irma consistently demonstrated the unwavering commitment to shaping the future of South Australia public sector by driving sector wide reform. Can you explain to us what that means? What does it mean that you what reform were you driving and what were some of the big initiatives that you were targeting?

Erma Ranieri: 19:28

Well, I guess the if I can actually go back a bit. Before I started that I had some really strong views about leadership development across government. I had some strong views about women in leadership, strong views about Aboriginal people and anyone from a disadvantaged background. I am a guardian to my two adult cousins who are severely intellectually disabled. So I've grown up watching disadvantage and watching the things that we need to do. So your purpose drives How your passion for actually getting that change. When I started, we didn't have a Leadership Academy, I had about 10 people in my office, we were reporting on the public sector, basically, numbers of people and the rest of it. Fast forward seven years, we have a leadership academy that's getting 1000s of people through, you know, inspirational leadership essentials on how you manage and lead people. We had a diversity and inclusion, gender equality strategy, we are now up to 53%. I started, I think it was 28%. I didn't do it. What I have been is a beacon for what we should be doing. I'm a voice, I'm a voice for people. I, that's my area of expertise. I said in terms of my studies, I have I've studied in the area of organizational change, industrial relations, but I love change and leadership. And everything that's in the office now with all those great people and the whole of the public sector was not what it was seven years ago, we had didn't have any of that Aboriginal employment was under 2%. We're about 2.29. Now, it's not good enough. It needs to be more but gee, we have gone so far. We're increasing disability employment, it's not me, what we're saying is put a lens on it, employ people and advise governments, no matter who they are, to make sure that this is on top of their agenda, youth employment, the traineeship programs, over 2000, 2 and a half 1000 people through skilling, South Australia, through the traineeship program. For us, as an employer, I'm only talking about us private sectors doing a whole lot as well, that gets driven that that I'm driving that, but agencies are part of the solution there. So everything that we're doing at a whole of government level around workforce, and around how we're progressive, working from home and COVID. Yeah, that was we were set up we we had, you know, policies and stuff in place for people to work from home. But it's not just getting them home and get their equipment. It's how do you lead and manage and inspire people when you're not together? Yeah. So COVID, I've been the mobilization coordinator. So that's moving public servants around to where they need it and health say polar, whatever, massive effort, massive effort across the board. And we've done that together. And I'm really proud of that, because there's a legacy that's going to be left there that is this phenomenal. So I think starting with the young migrant that came here, I feel really proud that we've lifted in a much better place than we found it.

Daniel Franco: 22:33

Yeah, and, and, you know, great leaders set the vision, right, and lead the way and I think that's what that's what you're doing. And on I guess from on behalf of everyone who's working here in South Australia, thank you, it's a pleasure. Enjoy it for you've been doing for seven years, we hope that you can carry on for another seven years,

Erma Ranieri: 22:53

I'll carry on for a bit. See how the rest the rest looks.

Daniel Franco: 22:56

So you did mention that my colleagues and my business partner Michelle, did they did work with you? And she described you described you as one of those very first leaders that she worked under who was instrumental in her career. So you're probably that mentor that she that you spoke of earlier to her where she you inspired her to be a leader and and obviously make and create change within the world. So she says thank you to you for that as well so much to hear. She She mentioned to me that you have this superpower to create great leaders are actually said to there's no evidence with you there Michelle, but she called me now you see that your superpower to create great leaders? Yeah. And and I thought we thought about this and we thought, is it something that you do deliberately? Is that an approach that came to you naturally or you deliberately seek to create more leaders?

Erma Ranieri: 24:03

It's an interesting point, because it's a great question because it great leaders come from you within, okay. And look, I like everyone else you can get caught up in the vortex of how important you are. And you know, positional power, when some people call you commissioning, you kind of go off, you know, this is and I always ground myself in my beginnings. Yeah. And always ground myself in where my shortcomings are my vulnerabilities. So I've done a lot of work around me who I am and I think for a time, as I was getting higher in the ranks, I kind of lost a little bit of who am I and and this will come to why I how I inspire leaders who am I as a person who is my identity through this because sooner or later we will no longer have it. What we will have is us you know, it'll be Irma who came from you know, it I often say to People your eulogy, he's not going to say that she did it for the public sector, they might. But there'll be people that you touched along the way that will go, Oh, she kind of gave me the right direction, like Michelle, to go and do this. So great leaders are those that connect with people at their particular level. The other thing I've had to learn is I have to listen to where people are at. And we to the questions you might ask me, you know, I tend to jump a little to kind of try and save or give people the answer. I think as leaders, you need to understand that the empathy is with listening to them. And what's great is if you're not going through what they're going through, you can give them some fantastic advice that they may not be seeing an offer. And it can be trauma, whether it's domestic violence, or, you know, wanting to get to that next promotional job, or the ability to deal with kids at home, and maybe challenges with children, some that might have learning difficulties, or just just being a mom, and trying to do the whole lot. So I purposely go out and mentor anyone that might come and see me, it's harder because of my time, and I've had to learn how to balance that. So in terms of the superpower, it's within all of us. But basically, we want to, you actually have to want to listen to someone, you have to be gracious enough to give them the time. And you actually have to stop thinking about whether they've ruined your day. And now you've got an extra thing on your plate. And I used to actually do that. And now I see things there, you know, it's a lesson or a gift that's been given to me, because it was meant for me to give someone that, but the key here for any leader is you've got to balance, you've got to balance all the other demands. So I'd actually say to leaders, I'm trying to do this, I was never good at it. Don't make too many appointments, be there be present. Because if you are and you give them that inspiration, they'll do the work for you, you actually don't have to do it yourself. And quite frankly, you're not good at it. You've got some experts, that would be better at it. Yeah, so that's the superpower is actually allowing people to be their best self. There are some people who struggle with that. It's also being a leader that says you're not okay, and you can't behave in that way, you've got to call out that behavior when you see it. And I sometimes don't, because, you know, I've come in from a background where conflict was not allowed, in particular for women. So I've actually found the, you know, conflict around, you cannot do that to someone else, I'll help you, I'll hope and I'll understand why you're doing it. But if you continue to do it, that is not acceptable. So good leaders also actually manage situations where others are being disadvantaged by others behaviors. So for me, it's behavioral, it's bringing your best self and getting the best self out of other people and let go of your ego when you're actually doing that. So and you know what I sleep, I may not make the right decisions. By the way, not everyone is happy with the outcome. And sometimes it can be hard because you can't be their best friends. But I can say now, not that I'm a good sleeper, but I can go to I can go to bed at night going. I did my best on that might not be the right might not have been the right thing. I might not be liked for it. But I didn't. That was that was the best I knew with what I had, and I can sleep fine. But never do any harm to anyone never intentionally go out to harm anyone. I think they're the superpowers we all need.

Daniel Franco: 28:27

I absolutely agree and, and echo everything that you say. One thing that is coming to my mind is and you mentioned it where it's like, you have to not be too concerned with the agenda or the outcomes that you're trying to deliver and give yourself to to those in your team. And then find the balance. I think that's where the struggle is is that the balance is what is most pressing? Is these deadlines, or is it? Yeah? Is it this? Yeah, what session that I need to have. And what I

Erma Ranieri: 29:00

found, I've often would say it's a conversation you need to have, because what I found is your best creativity. And the best work comes from when you haven't planned it in your head. So you know, look, I've done it, you know, like I'll, I'll meet with that person, I'll get them to do that. And then we'll have this particular outcome. What you're not giving any time for is the creativity that might come with the Lichfield things or ideas. So if you stuck in what you think might be the outcome, you're actually only relying on on your head, and what you what experience you have. And this is where the unconscious bias comes in. Because if we're so busy, I think the front and back back part of your brain, you'll just actually go to whatever's in the filing cabinet in your brain to go I did that before. And let's do it now. And last time, you're never going to let in I think what might be a new way of doing things.

Daniel Franco: 29:51

No, you're 100% Right. So the other information oh, wait a bit. Did a bit of information gathering Yes, you should. Was that you have this innate ability to engage organizations when going through large scale change or any change. So, being big change advocates here, yes, synergy IQ we work with many, many businesses helped through change programs. Can you tell us about your approach, and especially the word engage is the one that I'm interested in? Because I mean, you we all know that you can't create change unless you've got some sort of buy in. I think that's the most important piece here is that what is your approach? And in trying to get people on board for what might be the unpopular decision, but still, we need to push ahead, because it is the right thing for the community? Are there I think for this for South Australia, or whatever it might be.

Erma Ranieri: 30:46

I think there's a couple of things in that. I think some of the key is and what I said before, about engaging with people at a at a very sort of innate relationship level. Yeah, and you can't do that with everyone. So if you're doing a large scale changes and departments, you know, 10,000 people, it's gonna be hard to engage with everyone individually. There's a couple of key points and you'd know this from a change agent perspective, you have to be very genuine in saying why you're doing that. You got to tell people why. And if you're bringing it from your front brain, because it's just, I was, that was my last organization. That's how I did it over there. It worked. I think that that's very less lazy. I actually think you need to think about when you're making change to something, and lots of things need to change, by the way. So I'm a change agent. I think that's that's the only way we're going to get to a new future. But you're going to have to explain, and don't try to do this on your own. Why are you doing it? What is the ultimate outcome? And then my advice is, you know, and I hear a lot of leaders say, Well, you know, what does consultation look like for you? You know, and when we finished consulting, what does that look like? We never finished consulting on this stuff. And my view is you got to tell people the why. And not to go, why I'm doing this people. And by the way, my end product is here, and you won't have a job. Okay, so I think that might be the outcome. But what you do is you take people on a journey. Now you might not do it face to face, but you're going to explain to them why. And then you're going to say, actually, and what your views on this, and what's making new uptight or upset about perhaps this change. If it's about me losing my job, you can dispel that myth straightaway. Or you can say, look, potentially that's the case, but you can help me design what might be the future. So my view is be very genuine about why you're doing it be very genuine, that you haven't come to the final conclusion, before you've even started. Because that's disingenuous, you're not really involving changes about all of us changing, all you're doing is restructuring. And all you're doing is saying I'm restructuring because I think it's this way. And what you haven't learned in is what I said before, and that is maybe one of your people, or a group of your people actually have an idea that's better than yours. And in fact, what you were thinking about where you'd go, they might actually take you somewhere to slightly further. And you may not have even thought about that. So my view is I don't think we do change fast enough. Basically, do it more often. So people are used to it, and give people the tools, which is what companies like yours do to actually do with themselves about how they react to change. So often it's a fear of something and a fear of something being taken away. If we dispel that fear, then I think you're on the path of actually doing what needs to be done. Don't even call a change. Yeah, just say let's talk about actually, right now

Daniel Franco: 33:47

proven

Erma Ranieri: 33:48

well, with with with COVID. I mean, we hear about the great resignation, we're hearing about, you know, we need to reimagine things and the rest of it. I don't even know what that looks like. But what's exciting, is everyone's feeling it. What a great platform for a future that actually is designed by people that are thinking and feeling differently. Yeah, I think it's perfect opportunity.

Daniel Franco: 34:11

Absolutely. Let's not be concerned with the challenge. Let's design it so it can improve the quality of life that we're all living or we wanted. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So that's an interesting point, because we had we've had Nick raid, who is the CEO of DEP permit cabinet, Head of Public Sector, he he mentioned that he's really pushing forward strongly with the digital transformation, pace, change going on in that which is a really interesting piece of work, but that has the potential to do exactly what you just said. And and when you start bringing in new, new digital software and people, the expectation of labor services becomes less because the product itself becomes more productive. Can you talk to us about those costs? frustrations that the government are having with their people at the moment that we can have across all sectors, it doesn't just need to be to be government.

Erma Ranieri: 35:08

Oh, look, it's really exciting. And I think that it probably explained that we're looking at things and sort of in different kind of categories. So there's one around easy to do business with you. And for me, and I think Nick comes with the background he has, it's really exciting to be able to kind of get someone who understands the customer journey, as he did in the role he had at the bank, and actually say, you know, we can we can do this. And we can do this collectively. So I'm really excited about that, because it's, it's, as you said, it helps people kind of add value in another area, but it actually makes us look much better for the for our customers who are the most vulnerable in South Australia, basically, so they get a better experience with government. So we can go on and do the things that we need to do. And, you know, people people talk about the public sector and how, you know, you know, 100, over 100,000 people and rest of it 76,000 of them are frontline workers. You know, we're not talking about a big number of people that haven't actually been to the throttle this last two years. And my concern is we have a workforce that's working extremely hard moving with this moving face of COVID bushfires, you name it. So I'm very proud of what the public service has done. And I think the digital transformation offers us something that rewards us to do things more efficiently. So we can go on and do the things that the community is expecting us to do to make South Australia a better place. So the work that Nick's doing, he requires a lot of investment. And I think the great thing is when you have someone like Nick with the experience, you pull together that investment at a whole of government level and pick the things that you can do so low hanging fruit, and we're doing that. And I think you'll see a lot more things that we talk about, and terms of doing collectively as we go forward in the next few years. So it's really exciting for me, because it almost brings, I've had a lot of ideas. But we have you know, you need an investment. You need more people. And I think we you know, you need that time because the purpose work that Nick's been doing was really from the beginning, when we started to engage with the public service, about what can we reimagine that to be like, post COVID, or whatever the future kind of looks like. And we all agreed that, you know, defining who we are, was really important. It's where we started with this. Nick believed in that and of course, making a difference. So South Australia thrives is where we landed. Yeah. So we weren't really fantastic journey around that.

Daniel Franco: 37:32

You are and we're all watching from the sidelines, hoping that works, we'll put our hand up to help if you ever need. The the piece that's really interesting for me is and I don't want to get into a political discussion here. But with the up and coming election, does that thwart your attempts into trying to improve or or?

Erma Ranieri: 37:52

Yeah, I've got a sage piece of advice for any public servant when it comes to elections. I've been through several, I've been around for a long time. But one thing that I have discovered about myself and a lot of public servants have is that I'm actually a public administrator at heart, you know, I talked about why I'm doing what I'm doing. Politicians go in to influence policy, that's their job, I'm really clear about what the role of politics is, and how I serve any government of the day. Most public servants are as well. So apart from I guess, knowing things like caretaker and preparing for, you know, a new government or the current government, it's no different for me, I would want to be saying to any government, that this is what we started, my strong advice is that we continue doing this for all all these reasons. Take my advice as commissioner in relation to this. But the bottom line is for any public servant, for any public administrator, is that we basically align ourselves to the government of the day. So if I go, Look, I think the transformation should be around here, but their ideas from either side of government that we should be doing something different. My job as a public administrator is to give advice, but also do what what governments are elected to do by their constituents. And that's the bit about Australian history, because I completely loved reading about politics and the rest of it, and I must be here for a reason. But I discovered that I was, I was a public administrator, that the politics, I'm very good at actually reading, I think what my ministers or a premier might want, but my job is to make sure I serve those people that that's it for me there is there is no politics in any of it.

Daniel Franco: 39:43

The job of a leader, right. So over you, you were talking about leadership over your Korea, you would have seen some really great examples of leadership. You would have seen some not so great, and you would have seen some really extremely difficult situations that would have come across your desk. Yeah, I don't want to get into the nitty gritties of the difficult conversation. But I'm really interested in how you manage leaders who know leadership, but aren't doing leadership.

Erma Ranieri: 40:15

Okay. There's a couple of levels. One is I have a, I have a statutory role. So complaints come to me. And if there's serious issues, then I, you know, I couldn't be asked to investigate, or I could, you know, potentially investigate myself. So I've done a lot of those. It isn't for me, you know, I think the thing I'd say about all of that is, you know, I've experienced some really great leaders, as I've described, but I've experienced some pretty ordinary leaders. And, yeah, and look, I think the hard so in my role, there's, there's the statutory bit where I will investigate. And you'd actually have to see both sides, everyone needs a fair go to person, the person that's complaining about, you know, perhaps a bullying complaint, or whatever, and the person that was doing the bullying, or perpetrator or whatever. So there are two sides to a story, do I get emotional about what I see? Yes, I do. But I guess in my role, I have to be quite considered in relation to the rights of each of the individuals, what I believe in the process of dealing with really fantastic behavior and really poor behavior is that is what I said earlier, if you walk past poor behavior, so whoever the leader is of the where the poor behavior is occurring, and I will intervene, if I, if I hear this, if you walk past it, and allow it to occur, you are no better than that perpetrator. And I think that's, that's the bit that the leadership programs need to kind of identify the voices and the articulation of the values and behaviors. So unless you, I guess, define what good looks like, people will just accept anything, or except, you know, the, the grand, it's gray, it's gray area you walk past someone might say something, you know, it might just be subtle. I, you know, after so many years are my job is to make sure you empower the individual that's copying it, or feels like they're being discriminated against to raise their voice. And if they can't, you need to have people that they can go to. So we're a peer support programs, well being programs. So everything I've done, in my time as commissioner is to provide those that scaffolding to allow people to go find how they can get some help. But we shouldn't have those leaders in the first place. But I'm a realist, and world is made up of lots of different people. And I get really disappointed on any day about the behavior of people. And it's not about gender or

Daniel Franco: 42:48

no. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we're all on the same. But there's a famous quote from the general I forget his surname, but the standard you walk past is the standard

Erma Ranieri: 42:57

you accept. Yeah. And that's exactly right. So however, you want to articulate those behaviors, and leader, any leader and every individual's a leader, you do not walk past that behavior,

Daniel Franco: 43:08

what if it's the C that's having, showcasing that behavior, and you're you as a senior manager or junior General Manager,

Erma Ranieri: 43:15

it's really hard. I think that what happens is you go find someone that you feel safe to talk to, and maybe peer support and the rest of it, I think, I think, if it happens a lot with a CA, it'll find its way to the right process. But it may take too long and could affect a lot of people. But it's really difficult. But I don't think ca should be immune to people saying you can't actually talk to me like that, or whatever. But it is much harder. I guess, my role is there for some of that. And of course peers and people within your organization like your manager, if you've experienced it could do it. But it's a difficult one. Oh, yeah. Especially behaviors. I mean, they're not tangible. You may be the only one that's experiencing, but there are some No Go Zones, sexual harassment, you know, verbal abuse, or, you know, I'm not saying that there are some except or nothing's acceptable, but there are some clear cut things that we just will not tolerate, we just will not tolerate and people should put in a complaint, if they have experienced that extreme behavior and they should have that investigated or looked at you should never be treated like that.

Daniel Franco: 44:30

Does your role have a part in the in the recruitment of the season do discuss with the board of each?

Erma Ranieri: 44:37

i Yes, my role has had Nick has that at the moment was head of the sector, but I'm generally on each panel have been for nearly all of them.

Daniel Franco: 44:47

Yeah, yeah. You're tasked with this monumental project, I guess of creating a high performing culture for The government Yes, 100 and 100,000 people 30 Plus departments? How do you how do you how do you remove silos? How do you create the feeling of one or togetherness? You know?

Erma Ranieri: 45:16

Well, it's partly it's partly the work that Nick's doing, and the council we call to have a chief executive council, we talk about this stuff all the time, I sometimes take my cues in terms of what they they're very supportive on the leadership programs that we have. We have development for chief executives, I have a development discussion with most chief executives around some of that. And I work for a survey that touches on the culture, I report on all of that. And Nick has now agreed for us to be doing that every year with pulse surveys in between. So we're our journey is basically to measure to ask, and then actually, when we asked, we have to deliver, and I'm about to issue the action plan from the last survey, and there's some areas that I need to focus on at a whole of government level. So we can be transparent about selection processes and other things. So we're really serious about asking people, so we get a sort of a gauge of the temperature of the culture, and then what is the actions at whole of government level. And we've now been doing that, for the last, this is my second survey. And I started in 2018. And we will now do it annually. So I'm really excited. There weren't any before that, believe it or not, agencies were doing their own. But the whole of sector level, that is something I'm really proud that we're doing. And that's how the peer support and wellbeing programs actually started. Because people had identified their sort of psychological safety, they needed sort of support officers, that we've got 1000s of them now in agency. So we really got our finger on the pulse when it comes to some of that. I'm not saying we've solved it, but we have mechanisms by which people can actually raise their issues.

Daniel Franco: 46:59

That's brilliant. So you know, you you've now got this reporting mechanism, we talk about culture each year, and you bring it beyond the agenda at every meeting, I dare say it is, is that the expectation of the CS department, the culture is front and center of them all?

Erma Ranieri: 47:15

Well, yeah, they get their report, not only that, we give the report to ministers as well, which and the premier. And so in their performance discussions and their development discussions. They have what, basically their departmental heat map, and we talk about that is front and center,

Daniel Franco: 47:33

what's your response, when the C or the C suite, you could say, look at culture as a fluffy object, as

Erma Ranieri: 47:45

I actually hand on heart, none of them see it as a fluffy object, I think I think we're all different. But they take culture and how and their surveys very seriously. So I think that I'm not saying we're all different in how we approach it. But I wouldn't say that there is not one ca during my time as commissioner, that didn't actually take the culture of its place seriously. Sometimes it's much harder to build culture in some some organizations and others because of the sort of services that they deliver, and legacy issues and also what they have inherited and what they've done. But all of those leaders, all those chief executives, are all keen to make sure that they move their culture forward, when it comes to the survey and other things, it helps that you're measuring, and you've got an awful lot of them. So So I think it's it's a wonderful kind of synergy between, you know, what they're doing in their sort of their departments, and then how their departments are responding to, to kind of the way they're delivering that. So no, I think it's I think that bits working quite well, lots more to do, but we're building,

Daniel Franco: 48:59

you know, who to call if you need any help? Absolutely.

Erma Ranieri: 49:02

I didn't say the word synergy.

Daniel Franco: 49:05

So we talked previously about your, your, your passion for people and connection. Are you struggling with the current situation that we find ourselves in with Omicron? And everyone working from home? And?

Erma Ranieri: 49:21

Absolutely, I am. I mean, you know, I think that let's just let's be clear, I'm an extrovert. And I think that leaders, I think there's, I've heard a lot about leaders, you know, bad leaders that want people to see their people and see that they're in their offices. I don't, that's not the case at all. I just want to see people because I want to see that they're okay. I want to see people because I want to interact with them. And other people want to do that. I have staff members who live in studio apartments by themselves with my family here, and they're at home. And I'm keeping them safe, I guess, with COVID and the rest of it, but I've actually we're masking I've got them in the office because catching COVID is serious business. But the the mental health strain and that's the bit that I've actually been a bit, you know, we've got to balance the two and one is how can we be safe? But how can we make sure that we allow people the social interaction? Why do we have workplaces in the first place. And I think the hybrid, I've been banging on about the hybrid for a long time, because of my, you know, raising children and things like that. But but to not see people, I do a lot of virtual meetings with all my staff. But it's not the same. I don't know, if someone is feeling strained, and managers will tell me, and at the moment, what we've got is, you know, group A and B coming in and out of the office. So we can connect, and the person that does leave on their own is in the office and really excited about the fact that they can come in and have a routine that might stop them from feeling a bit anxious and worried about the anxiety that we're all feeling. You asked me if I personally felt anything. What I did feel like is I needed to kind of, you know, I'll come to this to save the world. So what could I do to actually help? At the same time, my uncle, who has the intellectually disabled children, they've got dementia really bad. I had to find a home for him in the first lockdown in 20. I think it was 2020. Was it last year or the night was 2020? found a home. So how do you do that no one's working, you can't go into a hospital. Him and his wife have have been separated for 50 years or 60 years or whatever. He then goes to a home and she doesn't see him for the next eight months. And she's caring for two severely intellectually disabled children. And on trying to get support he dies last year have to organize a funeral with no people at the funeral. And then hoping that in 2020, we kind of 2021 we go up and down and the rest of it, public service coming in and out and mobilizing, hoping that we're near the end of it. And here we are 2022. So I feel okay, are there times that I feel more anxious. And there are times that I feel like I can't go anywhere. Because I just want everyone to be safe. I've got an 85 year old mother. I'm a big believer in the vaccination. So and So to my mother. One thing that she did say to me as as migrants whom when we came here, you were poked and prodded with vaccinations, and I've got lots of marks. Yeah, my mom's got that. Yeah. So do I. Yeah. And so I have a generation, my mother basically said, When can I get it? Let's go. So we've made it a habit of going to get our, our vaccinations together, and we'll boost it up at the end of December as well. So I think I have this balance between, we got to do the right thing. And this is, you know, we're in a serious situation. And I feel really sad for anyone that's lost loved ones, and tried to have funerals and stuff. I know exactly what that feels like. But what's really great about South Australia in particular, is we we do this so well. We do everything that we're told, and we're going to get through it, there's no doubt but one thing we have to recognize is that we're all tired, and we're all quite anxious. So anyone has a predisposition to being anxious and I think I'm kind of one of those people but when I get anxious, I kind of go more heightened to do things, at some point, that physical energy has to go somewhere. So a lot of lot of self developments required. So the next phase has to be about how we deal with people's well being and to manage the pandemic as well but has to be balanced equally. And, you know, I I just think that so

Daniel Franco: 53:49

I think there's gonna be there's gonna be a lot of cases of PTSD that's gonna come out of this, even for me right now. And I echo the thoughts of being vaccinated or triple vaccinate my kids who are under 11 years old, that had the first job yesterday. They're a little bit scared, but it was all done. They're all good. Everyone's healthy and happy. Well, thank you. But the the when I see Spurrier, Marshall and Stevens come on the TV together. There is this sickening feeling in my stomach straightaway and I think like everyone is suffering from this same sort of well, we post traumatic stress I think he's he's the only way I can explain it. But yeah, we are we are and I and I and I also was the same year in the last year I'm the same little bit extrovert, go into this heightened mode, get shit done, let's just figure out what we need to do. But then you just hit a wall. And I hit a wall in the last year and I'm sure there was a lot of ladies that did as well. What I'm interested in is what do we do as leaders who are trying to manage our own health and well being, but then also manage those that we are in service of like, and it's a it's a really difficult one because we have this war, I know I have this thing where I can take other people's luggage home with me. Right. And I where

Erma Ranieri: 55:24

I do, too. Yeah, look, is a couple of things I'd say about that is that the years of self development that I did, and you know, self reflection, where my parents came from, it's no different to the hardships that we suffer. And I think for a whole generation, including my children, not that I've suffered so much, but I saw hardship. Yeah. And my mother, will she just, you know, 85, and she just thinks it's a hoot. Because, you know, they had nothing, they went through war. So for her, so we all experienced it differently. And I found the strength in some of the older people I was dealing with, because they'd been through it. i She couldn't understand the toilet paper saga. Because, you know, they didn't have toilet paper back in the village. She said, I've got some ideas, leaves and other things. And I remember at that point going, yeah, they every every generation has a story to tell, your generation is going to have a story to tell, and you will become more resilient from it. And I think that's the bit. So I thought it the hardest times for me, and it was probably when I was growing up and how poor the family was, well, this is better than that. Yeah, I've got a house, I'm safe. I live in the best place in the world. And we have been kept really safe, I have to say, from a public sector perspective, so proud of how we've actually dealt with it, people are tired, but we just keep coming back and keep doing it. And so proud of South Australians because we're compliant. So it doesn't matter who's going out there giving us the announcement, someone had to do it. We've just happened to have it during this period of time. And I'm really pleased that we've got to where we did it, I have no views about whether you know what we should have been doing now. But sooner or later, when you look at the world, this is not stopping. So that's the bit I think that we're not used to that it's going on, it's going on for a long time, we're used to having maybe a bushfire or something, and it stops. So I think there will be resilience in in spade falls for lots of us. Some of us actually build that resilience through our careers through getting knocked back on the rest of it. So I'm fine with that. It's what other people are wanting from me, basically. So I've gone back to what I did when I became resilient, or the advice that people gave me, my self help around making sure I don't get burnt out. Mindfulness. I did a lot around that, and I forgotten it. But now it's it's like you know, when you're brushing your teeth, just think about that, when you're actually cooking a meal. Or if you enjoy that, just make more of it. I've enjoyed I mean, I was never really much like gardening. My parents were market gardeners I've got, I've got an interest in growing fruit and vegetables and stuff. And I think I just want to see something grow. So it's the little things that are now going to make a difference. It's you spending time with the kids, and you've had the gift of maybe doing more of that than you would ever have done if we were back in the old frame. And the question I have, I guess, of society and of myself is how are we going to continue the way we were going, something was going to happen. And in the past my mother talks of war, she talks of conflict, she talks of civil war and unrest where she lived, something happens when we as humans do what we do and consume what we do. So this is the something that's happened. Yeah. And I think this is where we will grow as a generation. I really don't your kids will be very resilient.

Daniel Franco: 58:54

It's an absolute silver lining that we're all going to come through this stronger. Yeah, more knowledgeable. But you know, if you're talking about coronaviruses,

Erma Ranieri: 59:03

as a whole, please did not mention the name.

Daniel Franco: 59:07

I mean, there is no other virus in the world that's been studied more than what the guy looks like, from a knowledge point of view. We shouldn't see this happen again. And we should have better defense in future from a pandemic and all the above. So there's all this silver lining. My question still comes back to as leaders though, where is our place coming? What is our position who, where people in our team are suffering mentally, and we are as well.

Erma Ranieri: 59:37

And so the will go back to my point, if you do your mindfulness, if you actually give time for yourself on me gardening. Yeah, if I do my cooking, I found and then I've got energy to give to people. So what I would normally have done in the past is I would go out to about three events during the week. I would go do three breakfasts in the morning. And then I do my seven hours of meetings and the rest of it, I don't do that. I really have a breakfast. And if it is, it's with my children or my adult children. I really go out in the evening. And not that I didn't enjoy it, but I would only do one. And now I can't do any. I'm actually building my energy. I'm actually better relaxed, and I'm spending that time and as leaders, you then have the energy to spend with your people. So it's given you a balance in life, I would say that you never had before. Will we ever give it up? And I don't think I will. And I think we should maintain that as leaders.

Daniel Franco: 1:00:38

Yeah. The conscious decision to work on Yes, yes, absolutely. Paramount. Going back to the point where 100,000 workers are no longer in the city. Right? We all

Erma Ranieri: 1:00:48

they're not all in the city. Just

Daniel Franco: 1:00:52

Correct. You are right, the majority. Is that correct? Zero percentage? Do you know?

Erma Ranieri: 1:00:58

Look, let me let me just talk through Did you want me to? Well, what

Daniel Franco: 1:01:02

I was gonna say is that we all know that a thriving city is something that is great for a state and a community and when, as public service, we're sending our staff home, we the public sector is sending this this staff home. Is it is there, is there a responsibility within the government to help the businesses that are within the city walls.

Erma Ranieri: 1:01:27

Look, I'll give you I'll give you my my my context. Firstly, I don't it's not just government that sent them home, the big four have sent them home, the banks have sent people home, and it is the health advice. And I think just to look at success, have we contained this, this this strain, by just doing that in the time that it was holiday time? Now? So there's one point in terms of 100 100,000 public servants, as I said before, 76,000 are frontline. So all the doctors and nurses are still in hospitals, or the police are still working to protect us or, you know, at the, at the testing stations for health. So and then vaccination and the rest of it. So 76,000 of those. So yeah, no, it's 76,000 hours a year, approximately, are out there working. They're not necessarily in the city, though. So what you're actually asking me about is really, you know, those those agencies like my own, like treasury and finance, like, you know, transport department, all the back office workers that support all of those frontline workers, we probably, I think, at a guess probably make up around 11 15,000. And I love the city, you know, so I'm here in the office every day. That's because, you know, extroverts need to get out. And I hear what you're saying about the businesses are very close after all these years of working in the city. I mean, no, nearly every owner of those restaurants, I've been a consumer. Yeah. So I think there's, there's a balance. So my role is to kind of give advice, I think I'm not on any of the committees, but give advice on I guess, you know, people, what's the office space and the rest of it, if we can actually distance, you know, follow all the right health, because we don't want to create any more kind of peeks of this. But if we can create the right health conditions, then we should be bringing back a proportion of the workforce. I think an announcements imminent on that. Okay. And it might be, but we will and my strong view is you've got to do both. You've got it, you've got to do both. And just for the record, and for some humor, I have stimulated the economy as best as I can personally but I bought about 10 Pop. From the local fee, I have known to nearly every coffee shop on my beach.

Daniel Franco: 1:03:52

I'm actually since coming back in this city this year, I have not bought lunch to the same place twice, gone to a different name

Erma Ranieri: 1:03:58

neither and I'm over killing my coffee. And I've just bought to go to George's on way mouth on Sunday night just to make sure to see George and just to make sure that so I think all there are a lot of us that are doing that. And though the public service to give it its dues. Back when we had the lockdowns, we got them back. We got them back. And then we saw that people coming in. I think private sector needs to do the same.

Daniel Franco: 1:04:24

Yeah, it is scary out there. When I say scary. I mean, it's dead. There is no one out there.

Erma Ranieri: 1:04:30

I know in I think what's happened this time. It's mixed in with Christmas and New Year. And I think what's happened is there were people that were going to be alive usually up until about the 11th of January. Most places coffee shops take their lead. Yeah, it's what happened before and what's happened after I think is that top and tail with there's a lot of business and then they're all coming back. I think I think that yet again the public sector will actually come to the fore in the next few weeks.

Daniel Franco: 1:04:57

Yeah, brilliant. So what is 2020 to look like for the public sector in the workforce? So we have seen the statistics lately that unemployment rates are down to the lowest they've been since 1978. And you know, the Liberal government a pushing that through and through, but there is there is still a labor shortage, right. I know what

Erma Ranieri: 1:05:22

there there is in particular areas as well.

Daniel Franco: 1:05:25

Absolutely. And what are your thought processes on? What is 2022? Like, when will some of the when will the borders open from an international point of view so we can get some extra talent in especially for the private sector, but government sector? Because I think what I'm seeing and from what I'm hearing is that there is such a shortage, that government lose some of their best because they're getting poached. And the government also notoriously, and historically can't pay the wages of the private sector. No. So.

Erma Ranieri: 1:05:57

So you're absolutely right. And I'm sure Nick would have talked about it. And like, I don't know, I think we've always relied on international workers. I'm hoping that, you know, once the world is gone through what we're going through that we will come to a place where it might plateau. I don't know, then I think that that will be great to see. But if I look more internally to South Australia, it is low unemployment. But my my sense is that youth unemployment is still high. And my passion so you asking what's 2022 for me is we have to have a focus on youth employment, and skilling up our young people as the largest employer, giving them experience and then they can move on. I think we've got to become a great alumni. Yeah. Because the thing about the public sector, so talent management, for me becomes a critical issue. Isn't the great resignation as such as people are going to choose employers, if we talk about how we felt, I'm not going to choose an employer, just for the money. We know that doesn't drive people. I'm going to choose someone I really like working for. I'm going to choose someone that absolutely aligns with my purpose. And I'm going to choose someone that treats me with respect. I'm also going to choose someone that's going to allow me the flexibility to reconcile my work and life. I'd like to think that the public sector has all of that. And if we don't, we will lose those people. Yeah. So the focus on leadership development, the focus on innovation, the focus on the digital transformation, why wouldn't you want to come and work for an employer that gives you purpose, that gives you the drive, and that you can make a difference to every South Australian, to those that are basically going from child protection to people with disability, to sick people, and how we might do health and other things differently. That touched me, like over 40 years ago, and why wouldn't touch a young person to be able to make a difference. So I think we can offer something that no one else in the private sector can offer. And that is that you can change someone's life by being a social worker, or by being something else. Because that's the role of government. Yeah, it doesn't make a profit as such. But what it does do is help to improve someone's life.

Daniel Franco: 1:08:07

Especially if you're a proud South Australian, right? I am to previous government worker back in my day. Well, sorry,

Erma Ranieri: 1:08:14

I was. So what is government?

Daniel Franco: 1:08:18

Earned by government? Yeah. But yeah, look, and for me, the drive was from working at a company like organization like sa water was, this is critical infrastructure. This is something that, you know, it's more than a utility, it's a health resource, because at any one point that water could be infiltrated, or the sewage system stops disease, all this sort of stuff. So I always looked at it. I've seen it keeping South Australian safe. And I think that is really a critical component on what you're saying. Employee employee value proposition is,

Erma Ranieri: 1:08:55

it's and we it's essential, we have an amazing one. Really? Absolutely.

Daniel Franco: 1:08:59

And there's a tipping point from pay your rider at certain point, if you've got if you're getting paid enough that you can live with all your basic amenities, then then it's that's falling on to the I think proposition?

Erma Ranieri: 1:09:11

Well, I think money, I think the driver for money has never been number one. It's only when everything else is missing, that it becomes number one. However, I really believe that our experience through the pandemic has actually changed that now. I'm done much research on I'm sure there's people out there, but we will see a shift. Yeah, that's not going to drive people or Firstly, we can't use the money to go overseas yet. So it's other things there are intrinsic, intrinsic drivers that are that are that are getting people to do certain things and also to leave and you have seen a couple of my friends going well, I've decided because you know they could they got enough money that I'm not going to work the way I was working before and that's where that stuff around your balance. So making sure you're looking after yourself means you can do both. Otherwise, if you're not you decide to leave.

Daniel Franco: 1:10:04

Yeah, absolutely. Want to just jump back into the leadership thing, and this is all definitely part of the employer value proposition. It's definitely part of people leaving or the great resignation or whatever. It's all bundled in that same ecosystem. This next question, the notoriously government public sector and you know, I think across all industries, so I'm just I'm not gonna single out government here, but across all industries, people have been promoted, because of their technical capability, as opposed to their ability to lead. And so we're setting them up for failure by putting them into these management roles, they move into these management roles have no idea, well, limited idea and how to manage people, therefore, they create some some, you know, anxiety amongst the team and creates resentment within the team, people evil, that sort of stuff. You see that in all industries, but particularly, we see that in government quite, quite a fair bit, as well. So is there something that we're doing in that space from a government point?

Erma Ranieri: 1:11:14

Yeah. And that's something that actually next striven in particular in the digital ICT area. So at the moment, what we're looking at is actually, and look, I think it's without going into detail, it's hard to revel all our industrial instruments, and how jobs are classified. That needs to be modernized. And but we are doing a little bit of work around how we might split technical expertise and pay for, you know, that kind of technical expertise and not expect people to be leaders. But when you have a system of promotion or classification, that basically says that no matter who you are, to get to the to that level, you need to manage people, then inevitably, what you're doing is actually people will look to those promotions to get that extra work, because they probably deserve it. They're probably very skilled in their technical area. So for me, it's a it's a technical solution. And that is you have to have a separate stream, where you're paying them for their technical expertise, and not to lead and manage people. No, and we're doing some work at the moment, and we specify specifically for it, and then maybe we look at other areas in the future. So I agree with you in terms of this, what's happening, but it come the solution comes with how you might split out how you reward people for the skills that they have.

Daniel Franco: 1:12:33

Yeah, and, and from a result of those technical managers, we'll call them in those positions, the cases of bullying, harassment, everything else rise and government and not shielded by that there was a an article that came out mid last year talking about the cases of bullying, harassment, is there anything that you're you guys working particularly on?

Erma Ranieri: 1:12:58

Well, the stuff around well being? And articulating? What is bullying and harassing peer support officers is all that Yeah. So yes, that's the survey. And one thing I can say is from the first survey to the second, it's dropped, in terms of percentage of people that are experiencing it, people are speaking up. And we're articulating more around those behaviors. So I think your work, the work has to continue, where people feel safe to be able to call out that behavior. And those are the perpetrators. Basically, that is not acceptable behavior to be in the public service. And we'll address it. So yeah,

Daniel Franco: 1:13:33

we're working. And that's, that's, that's great, too. And when you shine a light on it, shining a

Erma Ranieri: 1:13:38

light with all the data on it is very, very important. So we're talking a lot about that. You'll see that and it's all online. So we've actually been very public. We've actually published all the results.

Daniel Franco: 1:13:49

Brilliant. Yeah. What's What's What are you most excited about for the public sector in the next 2420 22? And coming out of this? What is wrapping up? I'm excited

Erma Ranieri: 1:14:02

about potentially, I think it's what we talked about, I'm excited about potentially, what's next. And I can't even articulate what that is. But in my work, you asked, you said, Look, I like change. Jeez, if I had a I had a platform that was burning. Yeah, I keep saying we need the burning platform. I remember sort of saying that, as we tried to sort of change the way we did the burning platform. The I don't even know if we've got a platform. It is it is just a blank canvas now, and for me,

Daniel Franco: 1:14:29

I've always been burned.

Erma Ranieri: 1:14:31

For me, that's so exciting. Because we can create a future that could be so successful for 20 years down the track for South Australia. Yeah, let's just not lose it. Let's not lose this opportunity. And I think we've forgotten what it was like, because it's two years ago. Yeah. So you know, when you create change, and I want to go back to the to what was what I know Yes. I don't know what I know anymore. And that well doesn't even know it's not even there. So how exciting is that? That's so that's all I'd say is no matter what comes, you will be recreating something because you kind of forgotten. You know what those that hierarchical patriarchal kind of system look like. I'm not saying it's all gone, but it's actually throwing the whole thing up in the air. So for someone who likes change, ongoing, yay, let's let's do it.

Daniel Franco: 1:15:22

What have you were the most in the past couple years.

Erma Ranieri: 1:15:28

I've learned. I've learned, I guess, that I learned a lot about myself. Actually. I've learned a lot about how kind and well spirited most people are, I have learned about compassion more than anything. And I've learned I've actually gone back to who I was, without having any position. I've gone back to kind of going, I kind of know who you are now. And I think maybe a lot of people have actually got the kind of forget sometimes because you, you know, on your sort of treadmill, almost. I've got off the treadmill. And so yeah, no, I'm actually in the best place I've ever been. And wouldn't want to be anywhere else, believe it or not, because I know who I am. And I'm, I'm happiest now than I've ever been with all the other anxiety. But I'm just grounded. Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of people would probably say that. So,

Daniel Franco: 1:16:26

yeah, yeah, that's great. So what does your future look like, then?

Erma Ranieri: 1:16:29

I don't know, my future is to leave a legacy. So you know, I'm not talking timeframe, I want to leave a leave a legacy I want to be, I want to be someone that people cannot actually say that I had made a difference to their little bit in life or to something bigger. And I want to be the best, I guess, Mother, Wife, Daughter, I just want to be the best sort of human. For however long I have. I just want to make sure that wherever I step, and I do a lot of voluntary work for not for profits in the disability space, is I guess, so hardened at helping others that can't help themselves. So the future for me is to make sure that that best self continues to contribute and feed, I guess my soul on that.

Daniel Franco: 1:17:21

conscious of time, we will round up the podcast will start to round up the podcast. Now. We always like to finish off with just a little bit of light hearted fun this is just to get into the inner workings of your brain, sometimes, some quick fire questions. They don't necessarily need to be quick fire ants from how you will but we'll go through. We're big readers here. We're big learners, big developers, we're always interested in growing and learning. So tell us about a book that you're reading right now.

Erma Ranieri: 1:17:54

This is gonna say a lot about me at the moment. I'm reading I've just finished reading Burnout, Solve your stress cycle by Emily and Amelia Nagoski? Yeah, I love the book.

Daniel Franco: 1:18:03

I've been recommended that numerous times. In fact, Michelle, I think has told me read

Erma Ranieri: 1:18:09

it read it. I've actually, there's a few people that have called me I always want to read on how I'm feeling at the time. And it's just grounded me. I mean, I feel fine. Yeah. But there were some signs there about, you know, you talked about anxiety. So I think we should all read that book. It was great.

Daniel Franco: 1:18:25

I think I tried to read that late last year when I was burnt out. And I actually put it down because when you're even more tight, I wasn't in the mindset to try to fix it. I was in the mindset to just rest. So I think now have a look

Erma Ranieri: 1:18:38

at it now. Yes, I think we just I think we're heightened. Yeah, I think now we're just too tired to be high. I think we're delirious. But it does actually, it did actually remind me it wasn't just the book, but it remind about the mindfulness. Think about everything that you actually do particularly helpful for women, by the way, because it does actually talk a lot about the, you know, a woman's journey. Yeah, in relation to, I think, being the carer of everyone, and being careful not to burn out in relation to that. So I particularly recommend it for women that that are feeling the strain now that the home home schooling might be backed off.

Daniel Franco: 1:19:19

So we'll put that in the show notes. What's one book that you feel that stands out from the crowd,

Erma Ranieri: 1:19:26

I think was to actually one that I that I had read early on in my career was road less traveled by Scott Pettis that just somehow resonated with me and look would it be remiss of me not to say Daring Greatly by Brene Brown when when you know the challenges of leadership and sort of where I was in terms of the cycle and the leaders around me so Daring Greatly those to stand up for me.

Daniel Franco: 1:19:52

I've got a story about the road less traveled. I've only read the first sentence. Oh, and I'll put it down and I got everything I needed from that. Because the first sentence is life is hard. And the moment you realize that life is hard, the easier life becomes. And I just went, Yeah, that's enough.

Erma Ranieri: 1:20:09

You should read the rest.

Daniel Franco: 1:20:13

I actually did put it away,

Erma Ranieri: 1:20:14

it actually helped me. And you know what, as my children were young, it helped me to help them. And then I went into the learned optimism and other things for them. So I think when you learn when you read about yourself, you become a much better coach or mentor or parent or, or friend to someone because you can actually offer that advice. So that's that's how I Yeah, but anyway, it was a great book.

Daniel Franco: 1:20:42

Is there any other podcasts that you might listen to? Yes,

Erma Ranieri: 1:20:44

Super Soul with Eckhart Tolle is the speaker. Yeah. Oprah, Oprah she interviews so Eckhart Neuwirth, you know, all of Eckhart work. Yeah, look, I had a moment of needing to kind of, so you can see where this is going for me. But Eckhart, maybe his voice is soothing. But I have found it really quiet inside. But in fact, I've just started listening to another podcast that you know, there must have seen, you know, someone's looking at what I did. And they said, Wow, you might want to Yeah, do Eckhart has totally has been really good for me.

Daniel Franco: 1:21:23

Yeah. Yeah, he's his book, The Power of Now changed my life. And they had a big impact.

Erma Ranieri: 1:21:30

I really like this, he talks about a new worth. And so it is about that awakening, it does. I don't, I'm not that spooky about it. But the more you are conscious of the things that are happening, and when, you know, he talks about that concept of conscious self, when you're behaving in a way that you know, post traumatic stress or, or you're reacting because someone seems to have hurt your ego on something or, you know, you're not as powerful as you are, is that consciousness of going, why are you reacting to this? You know, what can you do to change this? It's it's so empowering. Like, it's like, Oh, let that go. Yeah, time for that. Let's just see if we can resolve this.

Daniel Franco: 1:22:08

Yeah, it reminds me about that diagram. He's like, I've got a problem. Is there anything I can do? No, then you don't have a problem? Is there anything I can do? Yes, then Okay. Well, then,

Erma Ranieri: 1:22:18

it's easier said than done. But I'm saying go on a journey with it. Yeah. Yep.

Daniel Franco: 1:22:23

What's one lesson that's taking you the longest to learn?

Erma Ranieri: 1:22:29

There's sometimes doing nothing is the is okay. So if I get posed with a problem, I always have to do something about it. And it's taken me the longest to learn that it's actually okay. You don't do anything about it. And quite frankly, you could just do nothing. But, and that's what I've got out of this burnout. But that's okay. And they actually recommend that you should be a 40% of your time is to do nothing to recharge. Yeah, not just sleep. So

Daniel Franco: 1:22:58

yeah, that's just feel guilty for not doing always,

Erma Ranieri: 1:23:01

I mean, the book talks about that. And of course I do, I've got the dishes to do. You know, when the kids were younger, you know, what would my mum think if I didn't clean the house, I've got this to do or that still still programmed was to sit down, don't do anything, it is so different for me. But that is that's taken the longest I'm doing a bit more of it. I'm still not great at it. Thank you COVID. Because I don't have all these things that are kept filling up my diary with because it's about making myself feel important. Or, you know, that reconfirming that someone wants to get you to speak somewhere or whatever. I remember during the year of the wanting winning the toaster, Businesswoman of the Year I did 700 speeches.

Daniel Franco: 1:23:45

Yeah, I remember why follow you on LinkedIn, obviously. Yeah, I just remember seeing your name ping everywhere, I know, has been less slightly, but obviously seemed a lot more refreshed from it, which is great.

Erma Ranieri: 1:23:58

I am and I had a lot of I did a lot of development over that time. And one of the key things that one of my very one of my mentors actually said, is you pick you have to have a third and pick what's going to give you energy. Yeah. And, and they it was very challenging, because they said why are you doing is to make yourself feel even better? Or to get popularity or get the you know, because I was caught up in that Twitter. Like we had all of that. And you know, it's a bit like the social media. Yeah. I do the podcast. This has been great. Yeah. I'd like to do a bit more. I think more on what, what, what people kind of want to hear about, but when you're on your own journey, and you're dealing with something like COVID and I did some wellbeing series for public servants. So basically, playing to the mental health type issues. If I'm on a journey of learning myself, I'm not going to be able to kind of present it'll be false So I think the kind of push it pulling back a bit is actually I really need to kind of work out where I met to be your best self. So maybe I'll do a bit more this year, I

Daniel Franco: 1:25:09

think we all need to do a bit of work on ourselves. And

Erma Ranieri: 1:25:12

yeah, but more talking now, I think people want to hear it. Yeah. So I'll probably will go and sort of do the genuine kind of what what do people want to hear about and just reach out to people that might need some help?

Daniel Franco: 1:25:24

Yeah. Well, there's going to be a lot of learnings coming out of this podcast. Through people, if you can have three people. Who would there be?

Erma Ranieri: 1:25:36

This is going to tie in with one of the other questions. Look, I could have said, you know, Mother Teresa, and a few other things that not really admire great leaders. But look, I would have, I would love to have invited my grandfather who died in the Black Friday fires in the 30s. In Melbourne. It changed my father's life, and my grandmother lived with us. So I would have loved to have dinner with him. And my aunt who named me after a close friend who died of a heart condition at a very young age, she was in her 20s, who obviously saw something in me. So she was with me a lot. When I was born before my mother came to Australia. So I'd love to have my grandfather and my aunt that was his daughter. So they're two people I've never met in my life. And the third person which will tie in to one of the questions that you have here is Alexander the Great.

Daniel Franco: 1:26:24

Okay. Oh, wow. And not the Colin Farrell depiction? Yeah,

Erma Ranieri: 1:26:30

I think they did a good job of tying to one of the other questions, the questions you've got?

Daniel Franco: 1:26:36

Well, yes. So you obviously know the questions very well. So before we jump into the time machine one, what is some of the best advice that you've ever received?

Erma Ranieri: 1:26:47

I don't have to fix everything. Yeah, I tend to go, Well, if you're coming to me, I need to fix it. Yeah, I

Daniel Franco: 1:26:56

think you and I share the same approach. I don't need to fix things. And so what do you do in that situation? Now?

Erma Ranieri: 1:27:03

I still try to fix things. I

Daniel Franco: 1:27:07

isn't matter. Do you think it's a control thing? Oh,

Erma Ranieri: 1:27:10

absolutely. I kind of border on being sort of a perfectionist to a point. It's, it's more probably my personal life and my home, I really care about my immediate family, of course, my husband, my children, and I want everything to be perfect. And if things don't go the way that they should I try to kind of control that. And when

Daniel Franco: 1:27:36

you say should? Do you mean the way you believe they should?

Erma Ranieri: 1:27:41

Yes, yeah, absolutely. I know all of that. I do I do. But it's it is a control thing. And then a control thing means that you by fixing it or making it sort of fit within what you think it should be. It's less energy for you, which is not the case. So the bit that I've learned is that you're not letting anything in for some fun and creativity and for spontaneous things to happen. So I'm getting much better at that. In a work situation, fixing a situation or giving someone the answer means that I'm only giving them one perspective of the answer. So I think it's been been a personal growth thing. And because I've got experience, it's easier to bring out that front Brain Stuff. So it's actually about writing, what I do do is write down what I'm thinking and try not to say anything. So I'm not good at most times. Yes, I'm writing. I'm writing down. I was gonna say this, I was gonna say that I was gonna say this. Let it run for a bit. It's really hard, because I want to interrupt. Yeah. And they let me because I'm in charge of my team. So but I write it down, and then I look back at it. And then I think, actually, that didn't, that wouldn't have made any difference if I said any of that.

Daniel Franco: 1:28:57

Yeah, yeah. That's funny. Now you're teaming and I look at you scribbling notes down.

Erma Ranieri: 1:29:05

No, I think that's a really good trick is

Daniel Franco: 1:29:09

probably gonna adopt that, I think. Okay, so next question. If you had access to a time machine, where would you go?

Erma Ranieri: 1:29:17

I would go back to Alexander the Great. Now, the reason why I say that is I was born in a village in northern tip of Greece, but my parents are Macedonian. They speak Macedonian. I know he was Macedonian. And I want to know what you know. So I know a little bit about the area, but not so much. There's little in terms of my records of birth. I do know the year I was born, but I'm going to go with I was born 10 years. After that, that's fine. So I want to know, whether there is or would love to know the history of that era, and to actually meet someone who I'm not saying that I admired it or not, but you know, potentially, there could be some signs kind of connection with where I was born and where he actually did his best work. So that's kind of you? Well, we don't know, I don't do the DNA ancestry. But he was identified as a Macedonian. I was born in a village that is physically located in the northern tip of Greece, on the border of Yugoslavia, and Albania and Bulgaria and the rest of it. So yeah, I'd like to know, I'd love to go back to that era.

Daniel Franco: 1:30:32

Is there any ancestry stuff that you can do?

Erma Ranieri: 1:30:36

Someone had? I think there's been books written about it. They do say, maybe it's what we want to know. But there have been some people through university that have actually done some research. And apparently, there is some connection there. Now, I haven't I, yeah, interesting. Actually, given the personalities to some some of the kind of people I know, we might be related. I think that's just I think so. Rather taught you so you actually have an element? But you know, we are

Daniel Franco: 1:31:07

no, no, no, obviously, David David as well.

Erma Ranieri: 1:31:09

So we're very tall. We're kind of just just the ancestry. I think, for me, it's it's just knowing, you know, which empire did we actually come from? I mean, I have just as much interest in that as anyone would about, you know, where is that? Maybe that's one of my hobbies. When I finish work? Yes. Yeah, do some research.

Daniel Franco: 1:31:31

I'd love to learn more lineages. If you had one superpower, if you could have one superpower, superhero power? Yeah. Would

Erma Ranieri: 1:31:40

it be you I think there was a movie and nothing. Mel Gibson played it. I would love to have people's thoughts articulated in words in my head. So like, now, I'd love for my head to be saying to me, Daniel just said this about you. Because I deal so much with people. And I look for the nonverbal cues, who would be very helpful with masks, by the way, because I can't, I kind of realized that I can't hear quite so well. And I can't read their lips. So I would love to be able to have people's thoughts actually being relayed back into my head inwards.

Daniel Franco: 1:32:19

Articulate in a way which in which you can understand Yeah, definitely make communication a lot. It

Erma Ranieri: 1:32:23

would make it clear. You're asking for a superhero now that is, I would love for people to, to kind of go Oh, Daniel is going what? I'm angry now. Yeah.

Daniel Franco: 1:32:35

Yeah, I reckon that would raise my level of anxiety. Okay, I struggle with my own thoughts level.

Erma Ranieri: 1:32:41

Yeah, it'd be very busy. But I didn't know why I wouldn't be left wondering how people thought of you.

Daniel Franco: 1:32:49

Exactly. Last question is a bit of a fun one. Yeah. What is your best mum joke?

Erma Ranieri: 1:32:56

Well, you know, I don't know. I don't know, a mum jokes. All I know is my kids always react and always reacted. I say it is what it is all the time. And they can stop saying that we don't know what you mean. Yeah, it is what it is. So and it's the way I kind of go about explaining. And then, you know, my daughter in particular will go, Well, what do you mean by that? You know, is what you know? So it seems to so it seems to be what you know, well, it is what it is?

Daniel Franco: 1:33:24

Was it? I think it's along the lines of Don't cry over spilt milk sort of things? Yeah.

Erma Ranieri: 1:33:32

Well, it was my way. And I think it's, I talked about the perfectionism and the rest of it. It was my way of explaining. When when they are why are we doing this? Or, you know, well, it is what it is like, you know, I can't I can't answer what society is doing. This is how we're doing. So I think it's for someone who's trying to be efficient, who didn't was time poor and the rest of it, it was a really good way of me having a reputation for saying it is what it is

Daniel Franco: 1:33:55

absolutely. Brilliant. Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure. On the show me Yeah, it's been an absolute pleasure, I'm sure that everyone listening to this podcast would have would have gained a lot of insight into the way your inner brain works. And, and obviously, and thank you for all the amazing work you've done over the years. I know many, many people who who have said that you've had a big impact on their lives. So I think you know, when you say that something that you want to do is leave some sort of legacy behind. I think you've already started that building a really strong foundation towards that legacy. And thank you, we're all very excited to see what the next six years ahead look like.

Erma Ranieri: 1:34:35

And I really, really love it when people say that it's not, I've taken that as a very sincere way of kind of going, I have made a difference, even if it's to one person's life. So I really appreciate being here. Thank you, Daniel.

Daniel Franco: 1:34:48

Thank you very much. Thanks, guys. We'll catch you next time. Thanks for listening to the podcast or you can check out the show notes if there was anything of interest to you and find out more about us at Synergy iq.com.au I am going to ask though, if you did like the podcast, it would absolutely mean the world to me if you could subscribe, rate and review. And if you didn't like it, that's alright too. There's no need to do anything. Take care guys, all the best.

Synergy IQ: 1:35:14

Thank you once again for joining us here at creating synergy. It's been great spending this time with you. Please jump on to the synergy IQ Facebook and LinkedIn page where the discussion continues after the show. Join our mailing list so you'll know what's happening next at Synergy iq.com.au. And of course don't forget to subscribe to this podcast. And if you really enjoyed it, please share it with your friends.