Synergy IQ: 0:01

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Daniel Franco: 0:20

Hi there synergisers and welcome back to another episode of The creating synergy podcast. My name is Daniel Franco and today we have Chris Wilson on the show, who is also known as the stress scientist. So Chris's background in coaching and mentoring packs amine punch when it comes to working with elite performance. This covers the military, elite sports performing arts and what he calls corporate athletes. Spending the early part of his career developing future leaders, Chris identified that a necessary part of the success plan is to improve the individual's performance capacity. And this can be achieved by adapting the individual's capacity in three key areas. This being the physical, the mental, and the emotional. So Chris works with these leaders to help them develop these three components and reduce the risk of burnout. So now more than ever, we are seeing that leaders in the business world are dealing with the constant cognitive fog and the feeling of Groundhog Day that can no longer be accepted as the new norm. This is why Korea's build an accelerator program that supports all of us that go all in and those who are true candidates that face the risk of burnout. In this episode, Chris and I touched on his journey from arriving to Australia from the UK and setting up his first business in his backyard to his current work and mission of helping people see the early warning signs and to avoid burnout. Chris shares with us in this podcast his research and findings around what is burnout is productivity related to stress. Is there a correlation between burnout and the need to please COVID And the stress burnout that is associated with that, the stress challenges of working from home and then also returning to work, and some of the tips and tricks on how to manage and avoid burnout. If you love the episode, which I know you will, and you want to hear more episodes of some wonderful leaders and experts in their field, then be sure to push that subscribe button and check out our weekly podcasts. If you'd love to get in contact with me, feel free to do so at any time admin at Synergy iq.com.au. Or check us out at Synergyiq.com.au and find us on all the social media outlets. Welcome back to the creating synergy podcast. My name is Daniel Franco, your host and today we got Mr. Chris Wilson on the show the stress scientist. Welcome to the show, mate.

Chris Wilson: 2:53

Thanks. My pleasure to be here.

Daniel Franco: 2:55

So I want to learn a little bit about you start off with stress scientists. That's a pretty unique term.

Chris Wilson: 3:03

It is it's it's a term that I've grabbed hold of when someone said it to me, actually over a beer.

Daniel Franco: 3:12

Oh, yeah. No, because no better way.

Chris Wilson: 3:15

Not all the great ideas surely. So it was a matter of me explaining what I do. Because this whole horrible question of what is it? You do? Yeah. And I was doing research in the UK, we were looking at stress and immune markers to look at multi stressor environments. You know, is the athlete at risk? Or does it impact performance? So when I brought it over here, I now set up a business called AI Pro, which stands for Individual profiling. And we were mapping athletes and and working with the military. And then they said, Are you a stress scientist? And I was like, No, not really. And then it just went and and then the business started and everything start from there.

Daniel Franco: 3:57

Yeah. So do you have a PhD in anything? Or is it just sort of a play on words with this? Yeah,

Chris Wilson: 4:03

I let mine go. Yeah, I lined up a PhD in the UK. And then there's a backstory there. So I was a full time I was in full time education. But I was a full time teacher. We just had a new baby. Isla. And

Daniel Franco: 4:19

that's my daughter's name. Oh, really? Yeah. Great names. Great. Lots Great minds think,

Chris Wilson: 4:24

man, what can we

Daniel Franco: 4:26

start of the podcast?

Chris Wilson: 4:27

We should have married each other. What happened there was we were both tired. And so I we'd both been around Australia together. I said why don't we go to Australia because you know, I get six weeks off holidays. And we come in someone offered sponsorship. And I was like, Nah, not for me. Thanks. Some all lined up. I'm good.

Daniel Franco: 4:50

What sponsorship look like in that respect? Why would someone say stay over? Yes. So you're on holiday? Yeah.

Chris Wilson: 4:59

Well, I knew people Here, I was setting up franchises and stuff lifestyle wise here. And my wife has been 20 plus years as a trainer in real estate. Okay. And so that's why we ended up down on the coast. Yeah. Okay, it works for the blue team. We call them those.

Daniel Franco: 5:15

Yeah, there you go. Excellent. So you've come over to Australia set up a couple of set up a business. And tell us how you became obsessed with stress? What is it about stress that ticks all the boxes for you?

Chris Wilson: 5:29

Hmm. What? I had to separate logistics business because when a regional town in South Australia, there wasn't? No, I was, um, from an education background. So I was looking for work in education. And then I realized pretty quick that Kate being the main sponsor was the full time worker. So I had to find work around looking after Isla, which was, you know, she was 18 months when we come over. And so I set up a logistics business from the back of my house down in in the Floria. Yep. And then all of a sudden, I'm setting up distribution channels to universities into sporting clubs and what have you. And then all of a suddenly, a few consultants start to reach out said, Hey, you can map stress, you can quantify stress. That Yep, it we use biomarkers in the body. And we can set up causal profiles and IgA, which is your first line, defense immune system. And they said, Hey, can you? Can we use the let me get that? Right. So let's, uh, can we use that as like, yeah, Christian. So I set up this whole relationship, when it's great, but we don't really know what the data means. But okay, let me talk you through that. And in the end, it was Why don't you just come in and talk to our clients about the data? And that is how I got into corporate

Daniel Franco: 6:46

world. Yeah. And so what is it that you do now for businesses and help them out?

Chris Wilson: 6:53

So the term I use is stress mapping. So we're trying to identify risk risk to the individual, and then risk to the business. And there's cost associated with that. I purposely the language I use is all performance based. Because when I was getting drawn into these conversations around stress, mental health, Chris, we got problems in our teams. And that's not me. Yeah, there are specialists, counselors, there's beautiful people out there that support teams and individuals in that space. So I really need to focus on how we can use these markers to look at capacity and performance.

Daniel Franco: 7:31

Excellent. So what were you doing with the sporting teams and the military at that time?

Chris Wilson: 7:38

Yes. So in sport, we look at something called readiness to train. And we can use the biomarkers to be able to identify, from a physiological point of view, whether you're, you're overtraining. So if we're overloading an athlete, we'll see physiological regression in your biomarkers. I said, Yes, that's why. And that means we can identify and then regress the training load. So you can imagine that we map out a training program for teams. And then the whole team follows that program. Where we found was this there was a lack of interdisciplinary approach to, you know, is the nutritionist talking to the physiologist is talking to the performance coach, and how do we individualize the training load? So we don't well, we reduce the risk of injury? Yeah.

Daniel Franco: 8:31

Yeah, amazing. So I think what's going through my head is that there's so many different versions of stress, isn't it? I mean, stress is just to put something under pressure. I don't know the exact terminology or the dictionary meaning but I think like, put something under stress means it's under some sort, some sort of pressure. You also are specializing in, in burnout, and obviously the risk of burnout. Given that our listener base is is of the corporate world, can we dive deep dive into? Like, what is the actual definition of burnout?

Chris Wilson: 9:05

Okay, so if we talked about the World Health, who Yeah, they talk about it a chronic stress load, a workplace stress, which is so broad and difficult to manage? Yeah. What does that mean? And let's, we'll go into COVID, I'm sure. And working from home, but right now, that term alone means that well, our stress is mainly from work, which is simply not true. Yeah, we've got environmental stress. We've got physical, mental and emotional stress. We've got stresses that impact our physiology. And it's not just because of work. And so there's, there's one conversation around what is their current use of a term for burnout? And then what is it? Yeah, so My terms we say, well, burnout, you've run out of resources to be able to cope with demand. Now those resources are anywhere from your physical, mental and emotional capacity. Now, that term I play in that space, because I don't you know, relationships are difficult. money problems difficult. Work is difficult, sometimes. But it's not the only factor. Yeah. And the second part of that conversation, which I'm really trying to struggle with how I changed the language in our spacing, if we said corporate in our space, is burnout. Know how Chris, I'm feeling a little bit burnout. Ryan described it, what does that mean? Well, I'm just tired in the mornings about the energy. That's not burnout. People are self diagnosing burnout and burnout right now. No, you're not? No, I have literally seen people who can't face the world. There, they are running empty, they can't get up in the morning. They're almost hiding under their bed clothes, because they don't have what it takes to face putting their shoes on in the morning. versus someone who is probably overwhelmed. But not there now.

Daniel Franco: 11:18

Any get to the point of burnout? What drives one? Like, if you're super busy, and potentially unproductive can that lead to stress, which leads to burnout? Like how do you get there? Or is there's so many ways that

Chris Wilson: 11:39

it is it there's how do we get to burnout is we ignore our signs. Early Warning Signs are a broad term, again, we look at physical, mental and emotional early warning signs, how do you know you're getting stressed. And then we look at drivers beyond that. So Chris, I can't stop working, I need the money. Versus like, I really need to please my boss, because now they're putting a lot of pressure on me, all these factors means that we ignore the signs that we're struggling and we keep pushing. And we've got, you know, we're humans, we can override, it doesn't matter. I don't need to do that. It's okay. And then before we know we've gone so far down the rabbit hole, it takes a long time to get back on track. That's as an as an individual. Now look at the impact that will have on our relationships, self care. So what tends to happen as we go down these lines is we know I don't have time to exercise. I don't have the energy to exercise. I haven't got time to see my kids because my kids bed so I'm losing the emotional side of that all the way to I don't have time to eat. I'm too busy. Now, when people are listening to this, they can What a ridiculous thing to say. I was talking to someone the other day and we're taking food supplements, so we don't have to eat. And then we're taking supplements to keep us awake. So we can get more work done. And, and it's it's not uncommon. And that's how we burn.

Daniel Franco: 13:13

What happens to the body in the burnout process like you know, when you say we're, we're depleted of resources and people can't get out of bed. Is it? Is it like a reoccurring thing? I mean, there's a little bit of rest fixer, I you know, I, I guess there's so many questions to come out of that one

Chris Wilson: 13:35

I let me get if I if I go with that. So you're depleting resource. When I say resources, let's go for how the body will prioritize. Now we can if I said to you cortisol, steel, cortisol, its primary role in the body is to mobilize energy without people getting flashbacks of high school. So we got this, we got this sympathetic nervous system and this parasympathetic one accelerates one decelerates. Now the accelerated response adrenaline and cortisol, their main role is to mobilize to fight or flight and need energy to move fast I need an immune system that's going to be able to fight infection if I get injured or you know, in the fight. Now, what tends to happen is we prioritize is a survival instinct. So we prioritize it. I will push all my resources towards my survival instinct, because it's survival. If when I'm doing keynotes or when I'm speaking to large groups of people I talk about why here, I'll just say it so if you were to own a pair of testicles, I own them. Know your body. And there's a few of us Yeah, I don't own mine. Anyway, so if you were to own a pair of testicles, and you remain in what we A high chronic stress day, you'll you can lose up to 30% size and your testicles. Yeah, well, because why would my body allocate resources for long term planning? Why would I talk about keeping my gene pool alive when I need to get to the next 24 to 48 hours? So what I end up doing is I steal resources from that long term planning disease fighting on the gene pool. Yep, keep in mind, yeah, family heritage alive. Yeah. And I allocated to get in through enough energy, high spikes in immune system, and getting high function in the brain. So it's a short term plan. And so I'll allocate all these resources or won't have adequate resources for other factors. And that's when we see the drop. emotional regulation starts to drop, executive cognitive function starts to drop. And then by the time we know it, we're in debt. And that debt takes a long time to pay back. I think now, it's your

Daniel Franco: 16:05

question. Absolutely. Does. The, I guess what's going through my head is, is it one of those things that keeps reoccurring like if you if you're prone to stress, and burnout? Like if you get it once, and like chickenpox, it doesn't come back? Do you know what I mean? Like,

Chris Wilson: 16:30

I actually, it's, we were classified burnout is trauma. Yeah, well, and so if you were to experience burnout, then there is a high, there's a high chance that it will come back quicker and bigger than last time, in the shutdown of your systems in the body's pure defense, like a forced reset, I can't keep going like this, I'm going to shut the body down. And, you know, we create memory. And there is a fear that we go back down to that place, and the body will stop that quicker. So the idea is, you know, what do we do with people who suffer from burnout? It's a long journey, my purpose in life, the stop people from getting to that point? That is it.

Daniel Franco: 17:21

Do you when you so if we're going to draw this back to businesses, right, do you? And this might seem a really sort of a bit of a dead end question. But two businesses need to almost do their background research on someone before they hire whom? Oh, okay, to see whether they are susceptible to burn out or not. I mean, if you're, because you, I think, if we go down the path of having so many if you're saying there's so many other ways, like it's not just work related, like whose description of stress is it's a work related. But yet someone's having money problems, therefore, they're stressed about being able to pay their bills and their mortgage and put food on the table, therefore, they come to work, and they bring that that angst to their workplace, then, you know, it's a very, very thin thread that could be snapped at any moment by a leader who says something the wrong way. Is that a concern for businesses? In the whole province? This is one big a puzzling. Yes, a boiling pot.

Chris Wilson: 18:38

So I, I don't know where to start with that question. To be honest.

Daniel Franco: 18:44

I don't know enough was a question. Yeah, it was. I mean, there's so much going on in that space is that businesses are responsible for people who have stress, but yeah, they're their home life could like you just mentioned King and so much more.

Chris Wilson: 18:58

It's never one thing. Yeah. People want to know what it is. Was it the blue pill or the red pill? Yeah, and it's not, it's an accumulation of so people can make poor choices in their financial decisions and put themselves in a lot of stress. I'll now talk about COVID. So we base our financial decisions upon our current situation, then COVID comes along and now I've got no income, I've got no you know, this stress there. The thing is, what I'm trying to tackle, so when I go into organizations and corporations, and they go create a new arm to the business. So we can map stress across workforces now, using cloud and, and IoT and what have you, so people say I don't want to know, I don't want to know if my, the stress levels of my workforce because I'm, I'm liable from an insurance point of view. Yeah. Okay, that's one conversation. So, you know, is the corporation at risk. The second one is So what impact is that having on your business? Because you don't know. You know, we all know about productivity and engagement, customer relations. Okay. critical decision making from your leaders. Customer experience, we can go anywhere you like with this high stress environments with high risk environments. So if people are highly stressed, and they're working on construction or blind planes or driving buses, then why wouldn't you want to know. And so if I was to say, I don't like it, but in my brain I always play with, I need that person to be there wholesale. I'm not just a worker, I'm not just a CEO, or an exec level. I'm a dad, and I know me personally. And my brother in law has been no more those things. Now, work is a major factor in all of our lives. So a lot of time in our day. And it takes a lot of resources to be able to be good at. And so this whole disconnect between will home life is home life and work life is work life that is completely gone. It's not real anymore. No. That's not even just talking about hybrid and working from home. I'm talking about the fact that now we've got a social responsibility to go, right. How do we look after our people? You're not? You're not employees anymore? Your people and you're part of our teams? Well, I can keep going. So you keep going. Right? This is

Daniel Franco: 21:39

important information.

Chris Wilson: 21:40

Okay, so then we start to look at what's going on right now in Australia, we've got talent shortage, and the cost of businesses right now because they can't fulfill roles they can't deliver on customer promises. You know, we've got a waiting on projects, but we can't find people to come in. So we're overstretching our current people to get the work done. And the risk of burnout in these people is so high, because we've got this lack of talent pool. But why don't you just look after the people you've got? Why don't we figure this out? Rather than than burning them out and trying to replace? Because we don't have this never ending pool of talent out there?

Daniel Franco: 22:17

Not to mention the great resignation, right? Yeah, that's, yep. That's just another hole.

Chris Wilson: 22:23

So I understand we're flipping

Daniel Franco: 22:26

the Cisco. We'll get there eventually. Yeah.

Chris Wilson: 22:29

There's a party. Right now we're talking about the great resignation. And I'm talking to CEOs that are going, Chris, look, we're overstretch because we're going through growth, great time for our industry, but we can't find a talent. So what's happening now is they go well, because they're stressed, and they're overwhelmed at risk of burnout, they're starting to look elsewhere. Hey, look, company B across the road is having a great time, they're doing really well, everyone's smiling, I think I'm going to go across the road. On by the way, I'm probably going to get a 15 grand pay rise for the same position, because right now they're paying more to attract the talent. So they go across the road, they put 15 grand in their pocket, but it's the same. And we've got this unsustainable salary rise going on right now to try and hold on to talent because they think money is the answer. And it's not, no. So this great, regular resignation is Okay, we're coming out of this bubble. We need to create some sort of movement and some fulfillment and joy. And we think that moving somewhere and life's too short, it's all gonna answer all the questions. So there'll be a settling period after the great resignation, if it happens. And I'm curious to see the human element of I'm just really glad I got a job. I'm just really glad I'm employed right now. And, and we'll see who the great leaders were through this unprecedented time to see who holds on to their talent.

Daniel Franco: 24:03

What's the settling period look like? Like what are you?

Chris Wilson: 24:08

Best different for different people in different markets? So tourism, hospitality. They've been stuttering along for far too long. And I hope they come out the gates and absolutely go gangbusters. Yeah. But I don't know where they're going to get their people from. There are other industries like construction in certain states that have been again, held back, can't get logistically can't get supplies to be able to deliver so they're, you know, they've got pipelines of work lined up, which is fantastic for any business, but again, they've been held back. speaking to someone in it, oh,

Daniel Franco: 24:52

my God. Yeah.

Chris Wilson: 24:53

The growth in that area is phenomenal. They're there.

Daniel Franco: 24:56

That's the 15 Grand area that you're talking about.

Chris Wilson: 24:58

Sometimes you actually will Yeah, yeah,

Daniel Franco: 25:00

I like his. And he's probably going to be listening to this podcast I know of someone who lost someone in his team directly or lost someone in his team. That's Santos being one of the big. Obviously, gas companies offered this person to come into their IT team to lead their IT team for $70,000. More $70,000? Yeah. How do you compete with that? As a small business? You

Chris Wilson: 25:27

can't you can't. But How sustainable is it? Well, that's right. And the fear is always the smaller businesses, how are they going to survive? So we got, we're in a startup capital, yeah. We we really want these companies to go through huge growth. But with no talent. Yeah. But if that's not a cocktail for burnout, I don't know what it is.

Daniel Franco: 25:47

And so this is where employee value proposition comes in, you offer a whole bunch of different things. But do you feel that offering the stress work that you do? And we're getting there? Right, we're getting to that, that we're back, we're back? The the the work that you do and offering that to the businesses? Do you feel that's part of that employee value proposition? Do you Who do you feel that benefits for the business or the employer?

Chris Wilson: 26:14

Great question. And so as we gather data, I'm, I work for the individual. But I get paid by the corporation or the organization. And so I have to add value to both. My whole thing, if you go on my profile, my history, it's all about working with individuals looking at how we support them. So I need to raise the self awareness of the individual and give them tools that they can tap into to manage themselves. In the same breath, I need to give datasets of value to the organization so they can make informed business decision, such as you're at a breaking point with Team A and Team B. Now, what the business decides to do about that, like depends on the size of the business, the money part, everything else that goes into that conversation, but I need to be able to create value in insights for organization, so they can see the current state and also over time, predict where breaking points might turn up within their organization. Okay, we can see that this certain point during this certain level of transaction. There are a stretch on though HR is having a great time over there. Yeah, they trying to put out fires, health and safety are over, they're trying to put out fires, sales are going through the roof. Operations are collapsing. That's a That's a horrible cocktail. Business. Yeah. So when, with the new arm of the business that we're creating, we were able to use medical grade technology to be able to use camera tech, to now look at mapping stress for individuals, where we can now send you you know, almost risk stratification protocols that say, Hey, are you looking after yourself? What's going on with you right now? We're trying to support individual. And I'm at the side of the business now that I'm really pushing into. Yeah, is that, okay? We've got lots of different tools we can use. But we always rely on the organization to give us balls or come up with the solution we need. And I've done it. So I used to be pulled into large organizations. Hey, Chris, talk to us about stress, and you've got two hours. And then you go in, you deliver two hours and and you walk out the front door. And that's it.

Daniel Franco: 28:41

And everyone's stress free. That's it. Sell around, Chris, we'll, we'll dive into that. But I really want to go back to the tools that you said that you give these, these people, and it's not the fruit bowls, are we? And I think oh, we should. I mean, it can be I mean, food will definitely obviously have an element. Exactly. I kinda want to go down to like a scenario time, so to speak, and then we can talk about the tools for those individuals. So scenario is I got two employees, both doing the exact same work. One, they're both very, very busy individuals, obviously, with the shortage of talent. They're both overwhelmed with work. However, one managed one of these people, manages to get through, go to bed each night, have a wine come back the next morning, and they get on with it. I guess if that's the right way of saying it. Person Number Two goes completely opposite direction and they go down the burnout path. How do I as a leader manage that situation when it's clearly Well, in my head, it's clearly not the work because one person's fine. The second person is Does it then start? Is it purely? Like, what do I do?

Chris Wilson: 30:07

That's right. Yeah. So what we're unraveling here is the complexity of the individual is the hardest issue to solve. Yeah. So if I was to take confidence to take that confidence is situational. So we've got people who are confident in certain scenarios and confident in or less confident in others. So we can boost someone's confidence, but only in certain scenarios, and then there's mastery and everything else that comes in with raising confidence. So that's just one thing. If we take the complexity of stress and burnout, and what people's triggers are, well, here's I'm going to throw a curveball at myself here. Why is it the organization's responsibility to solve that for the individual?

Daniel Franco: 30:57

Yeah, I think that's kind of where I was going to end up. Yeah. Is that it seems almost unfair that someone can bring their their personal life into a work scenario. No, you're saying they are blended now. And I absolutely agree. But the stress, and I think this comes back to, you know, that the extra weight that the leader puts on could break, you know, is this is this piece of straw that broke the camel's back, right.

Chris Wilson: 31:25

But okay, for me, so it's my, as a leader, and it's my responsibility to run this 30 person team. And I suppose to know every one of those people intricately and know when they're not feeling good, and when they're feeling great. I think that's impossible, impossible. Unless I'm having, you know, one on one meetings every other day with these people, how can I track that?

Daniel Franco: 31:51

And but even then, if you're not great at reading science,

Chris Wilson: 31:54

well, then the IQ EQ everything else that goes with it. And, and by the way, I've got, I've still got a 40 hour a week job to do. Yeah, as well as lead the team, as often, I don't have someone sitting in office going, Hey, my job is to make sure that everyone's okay. Often, what I find is unfortunate, it's palmed, off the HR. So I lead the team from a Performance Base, where IT systems process and API's, but any soft sweat, and it's that soft, fluffy stuff, you need to go and speak to HR. And there's the disconnect right there. Yeah. And then if I show them that I'm not as good as you know, we're both doing the same job, we're both on the same salary. If I show weakness, well, then I'm at risk. I'm a risk from a meant option. But I'm a risk of being ostracized because I'm not good enough. And I won't fit in with the group, and also risk of losing my security, finance. So I'll tell you what I do I just crack on. And I won't tell anyone. And we've got this horrible cocktail, we are spending hundreds of 1000s of dollars a year to tackle stress, and the numbers aren't getting any better. It's not working. The fruit bowl is one tool. I've got very beautiful friends who are mindfulness coaches, breathwork coaches, resilience coaches, grit gurus, you know, they're all thoughts. They're all one piece of a very complex puzzle.

Daniel Franco: 33:25

I agree. I've often said this is something I often speak about, I'm pretty passionate about that. If you are going to rely on purely the learnings you get through the work environment, then you really putting a limit on your ability and potential. I think that if you like know that if you are investing time into yourself, whether it is through yoga, and breathing and mindfulness and or reading a book on time management, or reading a book on stoicism or philosophy or whatever it might be, you are improving your thought process. You're improving your perspective, you're improving your attitude, your behavior, you have to do that outside of the work environment, you have to put time and effort into yourself through and I believe if you do that, then you run. Will you reduce the chances of being burnt out and stressed because you are more aware, you're able to manage it better? Doesn't say you're never going to get there but it definitely I do believe it actually has to have an impact.

Chris Wilson: 34:45

Yes, exactly. Right. And so the whole purpose I'm trying to achieve here is that we can inform people to make decisions for themselves. I can raise your self awareness by putting data in front of you. One of the I didn't appreciate Why hide with the saliva kits? And with the biomarkers? Because once you quantify it and put it in front of people, you knock down all the BS, and they're fine. Everything's great. Yes, everything's fantastic. But your profile, show me this. Yeah, actually, I'm not sleeping at night. I'm struggling a bit. And you start, they start to unravel. Yeah. So my job is not to tell people how stressed they are. They kind of know that already. And stop them lying to themselves is to, is to take action a lot quicker. Yeah, you do

Daniel Franco: 35:33

this a lot of kids? Let's use a round number of 100 people, how many? What percentage would be stressed? versus you know

Chris Wilson: 35:42

that some, that's what led me to the next step in my business is that it depends on time of year, and it depends on the industry, or it depends on the position within the organization. Okay, and the size of the organization

Daniel Franco: 35:54

is about 15 different questions that come up.

Chris Wilson: 35:57

So people think that leaders are more stressed. Whereas from our hierarchical point of view, in from our human makeup, as the lower down the pecking order, the higher the perception of stress, really,

Daniel Franco: 36:13

I know, why is that

Chris Wilson: 36:15

because we're lower down.

Daniel Franco: 36:18

It's an ego thing, or

Chris Wilson: 36:19

is not ego, maybe we use the ego term. So we're mammals that are built in our hierarchical, you know, top dog, alpha male, need to be top of the tree, matriarch, patriot, whatever you want to call it, our status is determined by our position. So even though there's more pressure put on leaders on the organization, there's the subsidize with much higher pay packets, high status, autonomy, contribution to the organization, all these other factors come into play about how we perceive stress. That threw a curveball, didn't it? It did.

Daniel Franco: 37:08

It's got me thinking now does that. So I Okay, I'm going to ask this. And this might be a very, very naive question. But if you're not productive at your job, the chances are you're going to be more stressed. Is that a myth?

Chris Wilson: 37:26

Well, it depends if stress is causing the lack of production, or whether it is a lack of engagement, disinterest disconnect,

Daniel Franco: 37:37

or it's the I think where I was going with that is that it's the Should I've got no idea what I'm doing here. Yeah, well, I'm not as efficient as this next person. Who's next to me. I'm clearly getting away with a lot, therefore I put a hold on. So there's

Chris Wilson: 37:55

lots of different stuff in there. One is if you're not as good as the person sitting next to you, what are you doing about that? Yeah, well, that's true. And if you don't believe that, you know, there's a big stressor inside our own conscious conscience about I'm getting paid as much as him by No, he's better than me. Or she's actually really good. I'm not going to bother though, because she'll carry me. We know it. And we get away with it. Mainly because because we can is not identified. And the person who leaves the organization, the person carrying everyone else through, they can't deal with it. Yeah. Consider having a great time. So you've got to know that this conversation is very broad. And many different aspects impact everything. But we know there are people in organizations that don't want to do a lot for their dollar. Okay, is that because they're burnt out and stressed? No. It's because they don't have motivation, drive, willingness, conscientiousness, all those other factors. And so we're not talking about them. Where burnout comes in is people who are normally conscientious and overreach to please. I'll give you an example. Go for I'm going to risk myself here, do it.

Daniel Franco: 39:20

My wife, Oh, no. Because

Chris Wilson: 39:28

I tell you why. Because she there's a lot of pressure on Kate because of the visa. Yeah. So she wants to be the perfect employee. Because that Security wants to be the perfect agent because she wants to please her vendors. A perfect wife, perfect. Mother, the perfect friend. So she completely overreaches because her characteristics her personality, is to enjoy people, loving what she does. So she overreached. In all aspects, she's at risk. She's conscientious, she's agreeable. Yeah. And these are people we love in our organizations. But they'll keep giving, and will keep taking, because they're great. People keep saying Yes, yep. And these people when they overreach are normally the ones that will disappear pretty quick.

Daniel Franco: 40:23

So, so is the is the answer to to not be conscientious? Like I think, like to avoid burnout. I mean, what is the answer for those people who are approval seeking,

Chris Wilson: 40:36

we offer those and it's understanding that we're back to the early warning signs again. So the understanding that when you've done too much or when you're overreaching, so we talked about overreaching, and then into overwhelm and into burnout. What we want to be able to do is, in high performance, we need to stay on the edge with very close to overwhelm and burnout constantly because it's how we achieve and are successful. It's those people who ignore, so we can go in, we can, we can push ourselves to a limit, like there's a deadline coming up, we're all going to go ends on deck. Right now, during COVID. A lot of CEOs are asking people to get into the trenches with them. Come on, we've got to fight for this. You're going yeah, okay, let's go for it. They know they're not sleeping at night. They're no, they're not looking after himself. The issue we've got is they've accumulate debt, when are they get to repay that debt back. Now, if we don't allocate time, and give them space and resources and allow them to do that, then they're going to keep, we're going to burn out. And so no one is saying that we have to be fluffy around our employees on the opposite to that. I don't go in there and say, hey, you know, burnouts really bad and why don't we just all slow down and calm down? No, that's not the conversation, the conversation, if you want you going fast, we want you digging in pushing it. I don't like the word hustle and all that crap, but we want you working hard and fast. But you've got to have the space and capacity to go, I need to step off. In, in sport, I love a sporting analogy. We periodized training programs into macro mezzo and micro cycles. I know when you're going to perform, I know when the competitions are coming up, and I plan and map everything. I know all the skills techniques you need, I know how to train them and measure them I do measure before and a measure after with a training intervention in between so we can measure how much you've improved. Great, but why don't we do that in business? Because you're in competition mode all the time. 24 hours almost. Yeah. An athlete saw sit on the bench not feeling good, less regressed the training load this week. When in cuz I get this a lot. We won't corporate athletes, do we? Do you really? Okay, so allocate a six week training load and then get them to, you know, to come down for two weeks. Yeah. Well, we can't do that lack of productivity. Well, then you're not serious about it. Because you want them to go 110% Five days a week. You're lucky Yeah. When with no adequate recovery, and this whole self piece is relevant because

Daniel Franco: 43:24

you're taping your hamstring. Right? That's right. When my age Yeah,

Chris Wilson: 43:28

I pull a hamstring these days. Yeah, a bed.

Daniel Franco: 43:34

I was walking the other day. No. literally walking down the road, my business and my back. Like just that specimen. Just punch me in the back. It felt like a dagger. This is really just a

Chris Wilson: 43:48

voodoo doll. Something my friend.

Daniel Franco: 43:51

Yeah, we right. Because if you think about it, if an athlete I'm thinking about and I feel football around athlete pulls up. Oh, hang on. Early Warning Sign my hamstrings tight. Yep. I'm gonna have a week off. Yeah, I mean, how do we, how do we? How do we use that model in business?

Chris Wilson: 44:11

Yeah. So what's the sustainable workload for an individual?

Daniel Franco: 44:15

Who knows? Well, that's what we're mapping, or each individual's different. Yeah, exactly. But is it then? Oh, okay. This opens up a can of worms. So if one individual can do 70 hours a week and the other one can only do 30 hours a week? How do you manage that? And what where does Ferren fairness come

Chris Wilson: 44:35

into it? bareness is the key, isn't it? And we renumerated that. So my argument is, if that person needs 70 hours a week the same job, then that's there as a productivity system process issue? Yeah. If they're in sales, so sales is a fascinating animal, isn't it? Because the more hours I put in, technically the more money I earn. Okay, With the risk of burnout in sales, a huge, you know, I'm around the real estate circles. But if you're going to pay me a salary, you got one person who is working the 70 hours to do their job and do very well, someone who can't do that, then how are you as a leader going to fix that? And how do we then penalize or promote those individuals? So you're single, you're young, energetic, you're willing to 70 hours a week to go up the career ladder. I'm middle aged, frumpy, I'm talking about myself here. I've got children, you know, all the rest of it. I'm not willing to do 70 hours a week for the organization because I want to go home and see my family. What does that mean? So we're mixing the conversation between, you know, promoting, promoting those who can and demote and those who can't or holding people back? Or what about my skill, set? energy and effort and our cert versus the experience? I've got? Yeah, how do we, how do we value that? So it's a it's a tough one to answer from this sense of burnout, and stress. But inevitably, those people who have got the energy will often climb the ladder quicker.

Daniel Franco: 46:30

Yeah, until they burn half. Yeah, well, possibly. So going back to the question of the percentage, right? We never got there. And you said, you got on to your next part of your business, we talk about 100 people, you've tested 100 100 of these people. Yeah. What would your average be in a percentage wise of people who are suffering from a form of stress or burnout? Okay, like, you know, I'm thinking of a of a diagram where it's, you know, wired, and it goes orange or green, then it goes orange, red.

Chris Wilson: 47:04

Yeah. Okay. So we've actually got those I've got unknown values. We've been collecting data from the US, the UK and Australia. Yeah. And so when I plot, I know, this is an audio podcast, yeah, no visuals for people, what you can mention is we take five different time point collection. So we take five different samples in one day. And we can plot your cortisol awakening response by morning, where that goes to, and then how that comes down. And then what it looks like at night. In short, you've got a journal pen and a nocturnal pattern, you've got a day in a night pen, this is going to lead us down a whole different path, by the way. And then we've got the circadian rhythm, which is what most people this is the body clock piece in the in the body. Business bites the body clock, there's one load of stress. So if I look at my body's natural rhythm, or wake up, I'll get a huge cortisol spike, the drivers in the body will start to ignite and get the body going. When I measure this in corporates, I want to look at how high that that will what's the starting point when you wake up, because your first release of causal, probably about two or three in the morning depends on what time you sleep, which is when we all wake up need to pee, and normally can't go back to sleep. That's me every night. Yep. So you're you've got your first release of

Daniel Franco: 48:29

awake for an hour.

Chris Wilson: 48:32

You're back as you went to the toilet,

Daniel Franco: 48:35

into the door.

Chris Wilson: 48:38

So we got our first release of cortisol, probably about two or three in the morning. Third phase of sleep cycle. Once we have that release, the systems in the body are starting to be driven. Then when I wake up, my eyes open, we get our second release, and we get a spike. So we're ready to tackle the day. What I'm measuring is how high that spike is. So if I called it here we go again moment. Often how I talk to clients, and your body, you're waking up and going, Oh, here we go again. And we're going to huge drive to try and tackle the day and tolerate the day because the stress loads are really

Daniel Franco: 49:21

high, isn't it? Here we go again, moment of excitement or have a Groundhog Day?

Chris Wilson: 49:25

Well, that depends. So I need to contextualize why we're saying that. I don't want people often think they want zero causal. Causal is bad. That's furthest from the truth. If so, your question was what percentage so I see a lot of people who have a high cortisol awakening response in the morning. Yeah. Now that's completely skewed because the people I work with are leaders execs, you know, I often I wouldn't get called in to go and work with people who working you know, on the both basic part of the business I often get called into leadership team. Yep. However, there is an optimal level, of course, although we require a want you to have the drivers on, I want you to get, you know, accelerate into your day because you've got things to do. But what I don't want is this huge acceleration. And I won't talk about nanomoles and the measurements, but you get this huge acceleration, because by lunchtime, we get this huge drop. Now, I don't know about you, but when I talk to organizations, they call it 2pm, itis or 1pm. Itis, where they hit that time of the day and they feel completely knackered.

Daniel Franco: 50:40

So coffee time. Is when you need a coffee. Yeah.

Chris Wilson: 50:43

All right. Okay. Yeah. So caffeine stimulant. Yeah. Are you trying to pick yourself back up? Absolutely. Yeah. So you've lost this energy pathway members caught cause I was primary purpose is to create energy. But the natural body rhythms means that we get this huge spike. And then by lunchtime, we get this huge drop. So we've lost the energy pathway, then we need to pick ourselves up. And we need to try and or how am I going to get through the day? I was sitting in a meeting and someone was falling asleep at 1pm. Yeah. And yoga. And

Daniel Franco: 51:13

as is possible. Yeah. Italians got it right there when your afternoon see,

Chris Wilson: 51:19

I am going to deny all there is no, there is no evidence to suggest, but it is it's a stimulant. Normally we unfortunately, go for caffeine and sugar. Yeah. Now, whatever the chocolate bar that Day Afternoon, it's a false stimulant. The idea of is not to try and pick yourself up so you can get to the end of your workday. The idea is to suppress the cortisol rise in the morning.

Daniel Franco: 51:45

Do that.

Chris Wilson: 51:48

Join my program?

Daniel Franco: 51:50

Well, you've got them. And just give us a little hint right now.

Chris Wilson: 51:54

Well, once we work out your your rhythm, your pattern in the body, we can start to work with the body to be able to normalize the pan so you can function and it's sustainable. And that's poxy speak. But basically saying, if you're spiking too high, you get drops, you're you're on this high, low, high low, that you're at risk, because you're remember, what you're doing is you're constantly spinning resources to get that high level of causal. Causal steel is very real. So we start to steal the backbone of hormones, we steal it to prioritize cause or cause cause as a hormone. So that means all the other hormones in the body are being neglected because we're our primary focus is to create causal. Now, if we can reduce your cortisol spike, you'll actually find that your other hormones will start to normalize

Daniel Franco: 52:50

scenario time again.

Chris Wilson: 52:52

We haven't even talked about the percentage thing yet.

Daniel Franco: 52:56

Oh, nice. This question, then we can get back into it. John is like a long winded TV series where people have to, you know, stay tuned. If we've got two people parallel universe now, okay, the exact same person, Big Bang Theory exactly in the same work like parallel universe, everything is the same. Their work is the same. their wife, their kids, their husband and wife, their kids, whatever it might be, whole life is same, except for their sleeping patterns are different. Okay. So one gets eight hours asleep, one gets five hours of sleep each night. Who is it more risk of burnout and asleep have that

Chris Wilson: 53:43

100%? Yeah. And to answer your question, I'm very conscious about how I'm not answering any of your questions today. To answer your question, Who is it more risk of burnout? I don't know. It's, it's the quality of sleep. So certain things are happening in the brain when you allow yourself to get into deep sleep. And we get if we looked at the first two to three phases, or cycles of sleep, that's where the magic happens if you like, and so you can wake up after or five, six hours worth of sleep still function? Eight hours of being in bed and being asleep, but not with poor quality. You're more, you're more at risk. Yeah.

Daniel Franco: 54:36

Alright, let's get back to the percentage. Just tell us the answer. What's the

Chris Wilson: 54:42

I would say the majority of my clients would go into a high cortisol state. There's only been a very small percentage of let's say about 15 to 20% are on the verge of burnout. Okay, because often people think it's a cliff, you push Push, push, then you fall off. And that's not true. What we'll have is we'll have people who remain in high stress state for long periods of time, and their body will slowly just run out of resources. And so we see, emotional regulation starts to drop, we see other functions sleep, we start to physiological functions in the body start to deteriorate stomach headaches we get. The reason why I say early warning signs is I talk about physical, mental and emotional. How do you know when you're getting stressed? And how do you know? What are your signs grinding your teeth, sweating, snapping when you're angry, and it's different for a lot of people, I'd have them in a workshop or you close their eyes and they and they point when they're stressed they point or touch their body where they feel the stress. Some people say shoulders some people say head and people say stomach lower back chronic pain is associated with anyways another

Daniel Franco: 56:06

I get I get really anxious. Yeah, my stomach I get it. I can almost feel those of you calling butterflies. Yeah, always nice. Doesn't it really warm a butterfly pointy, fluffy little butterflies. When I, I know. And then I get that almost brain fog. Yep, I just cannot concentrate cannot now something down or I can not come to an answer or a conclusion or give people any form of

Chris Wilson: 56:35

if I explained that to, to the general public. And you've got layers in the brain. And then they have arguments, which is really unfortunate where I play is in the limbic or the mammalian brain. So we look at the hypothalamus, the amygdala, the thalamus, and the hippocampus. So I work in this space that regulates sleep, rhythms, energy, you know, um, the brain will prioritize that space, that complex inside the brain over your executive function, which is the prefrontal cortex. That driver that stress response, if I get into a high stress state, like, Oh, my God, and I start to panic or get anxious, the focus will be on that central part of the brain. So I lose the analytical puzzle solving. Even the basic stuff like everything we should know, I forgot what caught us all down once when I sat outside of meeting for a big Yeah, he introduced introduced me, or no, got some guy coming in out and I was going to talk about stress or something. And this was a huge corporation, big boardroom, and I just panicked. I was like, Ah, man, what? And then I forgot what his cause I'll do. And I had to use breath work, and slow my mind down to be able to tap back into my executive functioning prefrontal cortex, you know. So yeah, it happens. Absolutely. And we talk about the gut, the heart and the brain and how they connect isn't. You've got your instinctive your emotional and your logical. And, yeah, very real when it comes to stress regulation.

Daniel Franco: 58:23

Alright, scenario time. This scenario, almost Australian ism. Right? Okay, we're in Australia. And we've got, we've got a, a team member, that is, I'm a leader, and I've got a team member, that is what I perceive is suffering as burnout. We're self diagnosing this person's in a bit of a bit of a struggle. Yeah. Go away for a holiday might you'll be right. Yeah. Is that a fix?

Chris Wilson: 58:57

For some? Yeah, it can be. So it's a force reset? Depends on relaxing the holidays. Yeah, be honest, but disconnecting and getting out of the stressful scenario, if work is the scenario? Look, is it a fixed? No, because in two weeks time, you're going to come back into the same boiling pot. If that person is in an environment where they can't cope, whether it be systems break down, whether it be on leadership issues, workplace bully, you can go anywhere with that. If it's the workplace, it's the cause of the stress, then no, we just were avoiding no one's dealing with anything they just avoiding. And so if I've got someone in a workplace that is highly stressed, I need to understand what it is it's going on for them. It could be external. They might need support, to be having a break up. Kids could be having trouble at school, taking my mind off things making work harder, doesn't mean it's not important, or they shouldn't think about it because they're at work. And that's that's often the solution I find people will use language like I feel stuck, Bill boggy is common. I, I don't feel like I can keep going. And a simple solution like trying to give someone back some control, and can actually be really a really effective way of just giving them some confidence back to go, Okay, I've got this. One of the things I talk about on my program, or when I work with people who are, often they call me and say, you know, I need to speak to you, and they're already so far gone. Like, it's really difficult. So one of the things I talk about is non negotiables. And the first one is just putting your trainers on first thing in the morning. And I don't say you've got to go run a marathon or anything like that. Just got to put your trains next to the bed and get them on tiny habits yet. And the reason why I do that is that before I get to that point, they've already told me all the reasons why they don't sleep at night. So the wake, they were if they wake up, or they're in bed, and they're knackered, and then they don't have time because as soon as they get out, the alarm goes off, they've got 20 minutes before they got to get the car and go. So they give me all these reasons why it won't work. And then what I do is I explained to them about how burning cortisol off in the morning can actually stop that overwhelmed feeling before they get to work. Simple. I'm not saying you have to go and smash a CrossFit session, it's actually complete opposite. Because there's another there's another conversation, people who are highly competitive go, I'm gonna go, I'm highly stressed and I smash the gym session. Well, actually, you're forcing yourself into you're taking longer to recover, because you're overreaching on a physiological side. So yeah, just getting people to try and think about ways in which you can give them some sense of control back is really important.

Daniel Franco: 1:02:03

What is there a fine line between burnout and giving up? Like, and I mean, I want to rephrase it. And I don't really know how to ask this without sounding sort of trite, I guess the I'm one of those people that just keep pushing myself. And I know my boundaries. I know my limits. And I know those early warning signs, I can manage it. I've never suffered burnout, because I believe I can manage. And I believe I have that ability. Not to say that I might never or whatever. I don't know. But I know a lot of and I know a lot of situations where I've seen people push, and they get to a point of being uncomfortable. Because it's new territory. Yep. Therefore they then say this stressing me out. And then they stop. Yeah. And then I always get frustrated with those people. Because I feel like they've, you know, stopped short of the goldmine so to speak. Is there a fine line when you work with leaders and you work with businesses, that you see that situation happen a lot, where people actually really don't know the boundaries of where they can play?

Chris Wilson: 1:03:34

So no, I don't see that a lot, because the people who reached out to me are already high up in which means they are a certain type of animal, which means they're, you know, they are highly competitive, driven, focused. And so my conversations with these people are, you know, a overreach, and then their performance drops. Okay. So there's one conversation, the other conversation. Yeah, we need people to go through the trenches and to experience what it's like, because we're increasing their resilience, they can agree. Yeah, all the other things that we discussed. And so fitness is a classic. Let's start there. So when people talk about resilience, they always talk about the mental resilience piece like and I don't I talk about physical resilience. Now, if we talk about resilience, we can get to a cellular level. So your ability to cope with, you know, the demands that's going on right now. It causes changes in the body, like you get capitalization, you get mitochondrial groupement, or development or you know, all these things. We start to create more enzymes because we know that we're ready to turn over more energy. And that's a simple sporting context where okay, you start off walking and you learn to jog We're gonna Newlands Iran is the same, same on the mental capacity as well, I need you to get in there and experience what it's like. But I also need to give you space to be able to come off, okay? Get in there, work hard, but we need to have recovery from their leaders, quality leaders understand this and give an allocate time for their teams to be able to do that. Let's go in let's work bloody hard. Let's support each other. Let's step off. Let's take a break. They go catch our breath this go again, going back in. And we've got this rhythm going almost a sprint recovery rhythm. Yeah. Look, there's a whole conversation in there about how we change the flow and rhythm of business and how we can use that to then allow our people to be able to experience adapt, recover, and push harder. And I use the sporting context or even the fitness context, because it takes time for people to learn that muscle. And not everyone is into it. I don't like this uncomfortable. I just wanna I just want to do my job and go home. Yeah, great. And we've got a role for you. Perfect. And I almost appreciate that. Yeah. But then we've got those people who This is always my fear. The people who really want it, it really want to push but burnout and then get chucked out the other side. Yeah, I believe that's totally unfair. And one of my big things is okay, so they just didn't have the right support mechanisms around them. They had all the right, they were bloody good for your team. That'd be an absolute town inside your organization, but they burnt out, we kick them to the curb. Next. No, no, no. What about these people, if I were to just not allow that to happen, you would have an awesome person in your team right now. And so I can't help everyone, I get it. Some people just don't want to be leaders. And I get that I appreciate that. Some people are quite content, and but those who do want it, we need to protect them. And if we can identify the emerging talent inside our organization, and nurture and support them, to be able to push hard, understand the rules, put strategies in place, to give them the self awareness to stop that burnout and that overwhelm that we know this, people are overwhelmed and burnt out the performance drops. So they're no good to us anyway. In fact, they're negatively impacting our organizations. So I don't know why leaders wouldn't do this. And then, you know, where do we go? Is it a time issue? Is it a money issue? Is it a lack of understanding an educational gap? I don't know the answers to that either.

Daniel Franco: 1:07:54

Do you know when you do your testing, and the facial recognition or the saliva test, either or

Chris Wilson: 1:08:00

not facial recognition? That's like, big brother stuff? Sorry. Yeah. The we're using camera tech camera

Daniel Franco: 1:08:06

Tech, I should say. It's on the face.

Chris Wilson: 1:08:10

Yeah. Excuse me, Mr. Wilson, would you just come with us, please?

Daniel Franco: 1:08:15

That's right. So all right. Using technology, as the saliva, saliva kits, the in the ways that you would review leaders, people, whoever is having these tests? Is it situational? And scenario based? Is it a particular point in time? Does it change as they grow up, go up the ladder. So you get an emerging leader, you take some tests, you're right, this is the way we need to manage this emerging leader for the next how long? Like what does that look like? Until there's more and more stress placed on it? The things change?

Chris Wilson: 1:08:51

Always, yeah, it's not markets change. People change on this emerging leader, let's say it's a young man or woman that we recognize is amazing. And we want to allow them to move up in the organization. Oh, they get married, they have children that life changes. What we can do is we can give them the tools and the self awareness. I keep using that word purposefully. It's no one else's responsibility, but yours. And when people feel trapped, that they can't make a choice for themselves. They lose that control. Because of fear. I'm going to lose my job, I can lose my security, we overreach, then that's that, for me is the biggest barrier we face right now is how do we empower people to to be able to take control of their decision making, working from home has been great for that. No one is watching me or standing over me. The flip side of that is people are overreaching to justify their pay packet. We know the boundaries have gone on I do get it I see it a lot. So you know we need to allow people to either come back to the office Because being home is actually a stressor for people versus people are going Oh, it's great at home, I can sit in my pajamas. And you know, I still get my work done. Yeah, I'm not driving two hours a day. Yeah, the car not losing time in the commute. So there's an interesting lunch break. Well, that's

Daniel Franco: 1:10:20

good enough every cafe watch Netflix in the back now, you know, but people are

Chris Wilson: 1:10:25

being just as with so he Eliza, Eliza, an interesting conversation. You're just as productive at home, then you are in the office, but you're doing it in five hours? Yeah, I agree. There was an issue. Yeah,

Daniel Franco: 1:10:39

I agree. Yeah. I won't go there. It's not my No. No. See the paper for the full eight hours in? Yeah, you won't go. Oh,

Chris Wilson: 1:10:50

what were you doing at the office? Yeah.

Daniel Franco: 1:10:52

Well, I think it's those you can't take away the I'm gonna use the word brilliance of being in a room where people are talking and chatting in, there's a conversation going on about a piece of work when your ears prick up, and you've got this experience person talking about this scenario of what they did with their client or whatever it might be, you know how to handle the situation. And you can learn from that just off the cuff. There is something in that which is brilliant. And that's what I love the work from home. And I agree that you with you that like I am so much more productive in my office at home than what I am in the office at work. However, when I'm in the office with work, and I know I've seen this across the board of or even with all their clients, those water cooler conversations or whatever they might be mount of learning that you can get from them and off the bat or, or potential situations which have been avoided because there's this conversation. No, no, no, don't do that. I've already spoken to the person, this person, this person that's lost this fine line, there

Chris Wilson: 1:11:59

is two things that really stood out for me we're working from home. One is I'm not getting the cue. So you're my boss, you're my leader, you're my confidant. I get cues Hey, nice work, or I get that I Yeah, you know, this is doing really well or whatever it might be. Or I can see you smile at me. There's there's lots of different ways in which we pick up cues, your energy in the room tells me stuff. I don't get that at home. So I then create scenarios in my head about what I think is going on. You send me a text on the whole god. Yeah, Daniels moody,

Daniel Franco: 1:12:33

I need to do more.

Chris Wilson: 1:12:34

I've I've done something wrong. So we overreach, I've got to make sure that I'm online always available, got to make sure that they see that I'm doing a really good job. Yeah. And it's not just a matter of being present in an office anymore. It's justified by your KPI or number,

Daniel Franco: 1:12:50

the amount of people I've heard say, I feel guilty when I'm working from home. Yeah, it's that exact feeling.

Chris Wilson: 1:12:56

So communication flow is one of the or even a communication agreement. Because we, we've got this idea that we need to respond immediately because someone else is waiting for us. And the other one is I need to be available whenever someone needs me. Yeah. And, and that's not doable. And it's unrealistic where people are now working, I see. Well, people who work across different time zones. Yeah, so they're doing their normal working day and then getting up at two in the morning to join you, the teams may in because it's us or you know, whatever it might be. And there's no there's no understanding about what the limits are to people's availability. And that working from home is almost exaggerated that because you need to be in every meeting and be present. Because otherwise your brain will create scenarios around regard they might think I'm not there or I'm not interested or so this communication requirement I call it an agreement because it needs to be agreed of communication flow. Don't contact me during these times this time of the day because I'm doing this though this is family time or whatever rules you want to put in play with your boundaries in place. Otherwise, we're always available at all times for everyone and it's not sustainable return were

Daniel Franco: 1:14:21

they going in a different direction. Okay. The we see in sport and using sport AFL we saw NFL is even a movie about concussion where players have got concussions in everyday sport. Especially use we're seeing so many cases come back now where I feel players have got headaches. We saw a law case in America based on NFL where players were paid out millions purely because of these concussions and the the documents were sort of hidden and the Now there's millions and millions of dollars being paid out to these players. Yeah. Do you fear that that could be a scenario for businesses with burnout? In the sense that if someone suffers from burnout today in 2021, that in five years time, or 10 years time, or 15, whatever that time period looks like, then they're having relapses, and they can pinpoint it back to 2021.

Chris Wilson: 1:15:34

Do I fear it? No. I'm building a business on it. Oh, you? Uh huh. So I'm talking to return to work workers comp. And what I'm trying to determine is that where where does liability sit? And what I know is that stress and fatigue are of no, we're talking about five to 7% of claims are stress related, according to return to work, or work safe, sorry. Stress is only mental according to their write up their copy, but it's just a mental issue, which is, in my opinion, wrong. However, 77 to five to 7%, or seven to 10% of claims, seven to 10% of claims, by view years ago. But now, the Victorian Government and the New South Wales Government are putting this business levy to tackle what is coming, when I was talking to the workers comp return to work, the trajectory of stress related claims, they imagine will go through the roof. And so if businesses are trying to tackle stress in the workplace, their premiums will go up, because they're more than more of a at risk business, then we put high stress, high risk environments. So the biggest claims at the moment, stressful aid are uniform services, social workers, social workers, and all those people who give up their time to keep us safe and support us. But we can see the corporate entities now that are having to put systems in place to try and tackle this chronic stress load creates chronic illness. That's not I used to work in cardiac rehab. So we know this. Now, if we can start to do historical claims, like concussion in sport, how am I going to protect myself now in case someone comes back and says You put me under undue stress? You forced me to do A, B, and C, you didn't support me when I was going through this phase? And that's why I'm trying to collect data based upon your current stress state.

Daniel Franco: 1:18:02

How is that possible to pinpoint it just on the business? If there are so many other factors?

Chris Wilson: 1:18:07

Yeah, so is business just to blame? Yeah, no. Can business support people? Yes. So I don't know the answer where liability sits? Yeah. All I know, is that the way claims are changing, and the way we you know, once we set this precedence with concussion, where do we go? Anyone that's had headaches, anyone? That's not felt great, since they stopped playing for your club? And then where do we go? Do we go? Just the elite sports players? Or do we go all the way down through the play from us heading in soccer? Where do you want to go? So they're now they've done their first couple of games where they've there's been no heading allowed? And they've reduced heading in training. But what about the last years, people playing soccer and hopefully are still alive? Are they going to claim? So we're in this funny space? All I know is that if you don't have datasets to understand what your people are going through, ignorance is not the answer. It's not my fault. I didn't know. So it's interesting. You've asked me this question, because right at the beginning, I said to you, I often get people going, I don't want to know. So, okay, not knowing isn't the answer.

Daniel Franco: 1:19:26

Ignorance is not bliss. Yeah. I know of a scenario where and this is in government, where a particular individual took stress leave and was off for 12 months. How, how does that How is that at first, the business fault for someone being on stress leave, like why does the business need to wear that cost? Or even holding that person's position for 12? months plus.

Chris Wilson: 1:20:02

That's right. So, what's the question is why do they

Daniel Franco: 1:20:05

or lemon law? Yeah. How does how does that even happen? I mean, clearly after 12 months, it's not the job that's causing the stress.

Chris Wilson: 1:20:16

Well, is it? Is it taking them 12 months to recover?

Daniel Franco: 1:20:20

Well, yeah, that's the other question. Yeah. And

Chris Wilson: 1:20:24

I don't know this scenario. No. But if I was to say, the idea is to stop people from getting to that point, but then was it? And again, I'm not asking the question, but I don't know the details, but you it was bullying, or something along those lines, harassment in the workplace, then? Is the business at fault? The answer is yeah. So how long does that person take to recover? Depends on how severe it was. And, you know, it's impossible to put or you've gone through burnout. So we'll give you two weeks off, because some people could probably get back on track in about two weeks, but in a short space of time. Yeah. Others may never recover. Okay, because they can't get back on top of it. Okay. This traumatic

Daniel Franco: 1:21:12

is not there was an A average.

Chris Wilson: 1:21:15

Well, there is but yeah, because in business when the Yeah,

Daniel Franco: 1:21:19

what are the if you go back to that harassment, but this again, I go back to the two people scenario one, that same leader is treating two people exactly the same one sees as bullying. The other one's like banter, like, Where? Where does that? Anyone that's HR? She

Chris Wilson: 1:21:36

said, you're taking me down a horrible path? No, I don't know, the answer is

Daniel Franco: 1:21:40

just, it really, I fear for some of these business leaders, because they're, you know, that everyone's trying their best to work with leaders on a day to day basis. They're all trying to get there. They're doing their best with what they've got. Yeah. And,

Chris Wilson: 1:21:55

and it's not their sole role, yeah, that people don't have just a role to understand your needs and your needs, your feelings, and that situation as well. So you may know, things you've been accumulating, you might wake up in a bad mood, and I'm supposed to be empathetic and understand your needs and wants and I have to change your day based upon. And it's impossible for me to manage that. Yeah. Because then on a whim, and I have very reactive to whatever side of the bed Daniel wakes up on. Yeah. And that's the worst case scenario, because leaders don't do anything because they just focused on trying to please people, and we can't do it. It's not sustainable. I need to be able to manage myself, I'm back to here, again, you managing me about whether I need time off, or whether you're going to allow me time off, to be able to get my head straight. is a really difficult conversation, because well, I'm doing all right, so why aren't you? You're doing the same job as Daniel, he's traveling fine. So what's your problem? If you can't hack it? Why don't you just get out? You know, we're here. I was horrible to hear. But he goes on a lot. Oh, God, Chris is slacking again. More, okay, is Chris lazy? Or is Chris really struggling? Have you taken the time? How do we know? And inside of that there's cultural, there's, there's all these other conversations we can need to have around this. My job is to just map and measure the current stress state of individual. Because that gives us almost like a heat map about what's going on. If it's systemic, then we can have one conversation, if it's individuals, if it's, you know, then we can work with individuals, if it's artment is it on systems and processes that are breaking down inefficiencies is there roadblocks within the organization? So breaking down the heatmaps of stress inside an organization gives very valuable insights and, and what we do is we do generic and blanket. While we're all going to do this now, they don't need that they did it there. Okay. Why don't you spend less money and more not so synced but more directed value and information to this group here because that's what they need. And so, you know, efficiency loss.

Daniel Franco: 1:24:26

What, what's not a fix, you know, running to our resilience masterclass.

Chris Wilson: 1:24:34

Now, it's relevant, but you'll only you'll only ever impact a small percentage of the room. So, um, people are gonna hate me for this, you know, go for a will, asking someone to come in like me, and to do a two hour workshop and with no follow up, and no engagement after the checkbox. Yeah, what are we doing? You've just forgotten what I said as soon as you left the room. So then we start talking about progress. But how do we get in and work with teams ongoing? Why don't we do? Why don't you pay me a retainer and I'll manage the stress and well being of your teams. That's an option, but people go, it's a bit of a disruption and HR, I've got that covered. Okay. Oh, do they? Yeah, I'm work with HR group. So I'm working with networks and associations in HR, because right now, they're medical experts. They're IR er, gurus. And these are even generalist HR hours that are now been thrown into this whole boiling pot of raw one half more workforce over there. On the other half over there. They're not allowed to come in, they need to be in what roles are we setting and it's ever changing. And I'm watching HR teams.

Daniel Franco: 1:25:59

You know, they're crying out for help. Yeah. We are coming to the end of the podcast, we always ask a few quickfire questions at the end. But I want to ask you one last question. Before we do that. If there was any low hanging fruit, for people listening right now that they can manage their stress with what would what would your suggestion be?

Chris Wilson: 1:26:31

The first thing I get people to do on my program, is look at five arenas of life.

Daniel Franco: 1:26:39

Refer five arenas, arenas of life. And so

Chris Wilson: 1:26:42

I start to look at you as a whole person, rather than just a colleague, or a worker, would justify mother or the mother. And we start to look at, you know, what are your parents? What are your parents behaviors in areas to finance, health, personal development, and career? One last one love. Most important one, I forgot it. Sorry.

Daniel Franco: 1:27:11

So repeat them finance.

Chris Wilson: 1:27:13

Yep. Finance, career, Personal Development, Health and love. Now, love is not just your love, love is passion and joy, and all those things as well. Some people say they dog. Yeah, I find it weird. Yeah. So low hanging fruit, I get it, I don't care how they do it. Some people do spreadsheet, somebody do a for flip chart, whatever it is that they want. And they start to look at right on the left hand side of the page, write down your parents behaviors in that arena. You might have a mom and a dad, and they both got completely different doesn't matter. Just write that down. Then write down your behaviors now in that arena. And then what is the future you look like in that arena? What behaviors do you want to incorporate, to make you a better person to be your whole self. And the reason why I do that is very conflicting. And it draws emotion, not our need emotion in any in order to create behavior change, we need to get emotional about it. And I do want to give all the way I do a piece with a measuring tape. And people always get upset. Because we work out that life's very short. And we don't like to, you know, we don't like to acknowledge that. And so the low hanging fruit for me is just take a snapshot of, you know, the parent piece is about triggering. Not negative emotion is triggering our Yeah, Dad used to talk about this or mum, these are the habits I've picked up. Yeah. And then this is me now. This is what I've adapted to and then who do I need to be? And sometimes it's small changes, small shifts. You know what, I really wish I could sleep better. Okay, they start there at least, or I really wish you know, I used to love running but I just don't, I don't do anymore. Okay, I started looking at movement again. And, and all we're looking to do is empowering people to make small decisions. But there's the low hanging fruit.

Daniel Franco: 1:29:28

However, I am. I've done I think I've just done that naturally growing up. I've always just looked at my parents and go what are they doing that I could do better? improve on? Yeah, well what frustrates me about that. Yeah, you're about something and how do I improve on that?

Chris Wilson: 1:29:43

I'm an example of how you are not a slave to your parents. And all this you know, you I end up sounding like my mum sometimes like when I tell my daughter to tidy up a room and yeah, and but you know, I can make a promise to myself that I will be better at a b and c And I thrive I strive towards being better. Being a dad or you know, being a better partner or, you know, being more emotional, which apparently I'm emotionally dull, and gotten to it yet, or numb, emotionally numb now.

Daniel Franco: 1:30:17

What's that mean? How do you? I don't know. She's just No, yes. No,

Chris Wilson: 1:30:21

I don't care if the Syrah everything's fine. Yeah, we'll get it always upset. Okay, this

Daniel Franco: 1:30:28

could be good. Yeah. There was not any. Yeah, that's right. Okay. Oh, we could talk about that for about two hours. Right, rodeo quickfire questions. Okay. And they are never quickfire.

Chris Wilson: 1:30:44

So if we answered any questions today, I don't know.

Daniel Franco: 1:30:48

Now we'll be right. Okay. I think we got Yeah,

Chris Wilson: 1:30:51

I think we did. Okay. We're adding some value. We

Daniel Franco: 1:30:54

talked about some really powerful stuff. So I don't, I think with the, in the ambiguity of it all. And every scenario is different. And every person has their own starting base. Yeah, to answer one question. Whether it's black or white is too difficult. Yeah, there's so much gray. So but that's

Chris Wilson: 1:31:12

the hardest part we want. We want the magic pill. Like I said before, is it Chris's ARB? Oh, no, no. And being a scientist as well, it's cannot Well, depends.

Daniel Franco: 1:31:22

Yeah, we'll say it could be an A today, but tomorrow could be Bay. Yeah.

Chris Wilson: 1:31:26

How do we measure that? Yeah. Hello. Yeah. Yeah. Quick Fire.

Daniel Franco: 1:31:30

Quick Fire. What are you reading right now?

Chris Wilson: 1:31:33

Ah, I've got a beautiful risk starts with people. Beautiful book by Lisa says on.

Daniel Franco: 1:31:41

Risk starts with people. Yeah.

Chris Wilson: 1:31:44

It's a it's a book that was sent to me. So I could read it. If my opinion piece on it. And I'm really enjoying it.

Daniel Franco: 1:31:52

Great. Your opinion piece on the burnout element of risk?

Chris Wilson: 1:31:57

Yep. Yeah. And it's really about, you know, it's a practical piece. And so it's not like a fiction, it's very much about these are the things we believe and this is where it starts. Yeah. And this is where the risks it's in business. So I'm really enjoying plug in her book.

Daniel Franco: 1:32:16

If you could recommend a book for people around stress, burnout, self development or improvement in this space. What would you recommend?

Chris Wilson: 1:32:28

Why zebras don't get ulcers?

Daniel Franco: 1:32:30

Okay, why zebras don't get ulcers. Tell us a little bit about

Chris Wilson: 1:32:34

well, the chronic stress is very much a human. It's a human issue. We like to project and forward think or we ruminate about past, we have guilt and all these other emotions that that really hold us back. And we don't have worry. In the other mammals in the world don't have worry. Apes do sorry, that's not for you. But why zebras don't get ulcers is because they don't have chronic stress load.

Daniel Franco: 1:33:07

Or just going on about their business do their day live in the moment?

Chris Wilson: 1:33:11

Often when a hippo jumps out of the water and tries to eat one then it's around? Yeah, that's right. Then all then same processes asked the fight or flight response culture. You're

Daniel Franco: 1:33:21

telling me that a Zebra is not worried about that hippo jumping out?

Chris Wilson: 1:33:24

Not they don't think about it at all. Well, they know it's there. And they just, but they don't sit there like, okay, so I'm not gonna go drink. This is exactly right. I need that. So there's an override isn't there? So I know that if I there's a risk of me dying if I go for a drink, but I've got a drink. Oh, we could go

Daniel Franco: 1:33:44

away. Why didn't we talk about this for an hour? I start off with that question for now. What's one Listen, this is Brene Brown question. Okay. I admit this is bloody good. So I'm gonna ask it. What's one lesson that's taking you the longest to learn?

Chris Wilson: 1:34:00

Um, what you know, today will be irrelevant tomorrow.

Daniel Franco: 1:34:08

blue pill red pill, right?

Chris Wilson: 1:34:10

Yep. And I was trying to answer people's questions. Funnily enough, I haven't, you know, in a podcast scenario, but I was trying to solve and answer everyone's questions, but the complexity of people means that I've had to learn to look at larger groups of people as opposed to, you know, just working with solving everyone's problems individually.

Daniel Franco: 1:34:38

Yeah. So what you know, today will be irrelevant tomorrow.

Chris Wilson: 1:34:45

Let me contextualize that. Yeah. My business today is nothing like it started five years ago. Because how would you like coach in the back of my room? Yeah. And even last night, I was on a team was meeting until 10 3011 o'clock at night. And the information that's coming out of that has blown my mind. So today I'm in a completely different scenario. It's exciting. Yeah. But it's constantly changing. What blew your mind? The way in which we can be information we can get the tech we can use, how we can layer that data to give insights.

Daniel Franco: 1:35:24

Yep. So Chris Wilson, the sizes is gone take on us. I had to in the end, me it's the way I mean, with AI. let's utilize it right.

Chris Wilson: 1:35:34

So we can start more God that no, I announced that. I announced on LinkedIn, I've joined, I've got this platform development, got partnership going on. Yeah. So we're using datasets now, where we can then start to do risk stratification, which I've said before, but we can do environmental stress. We can put sensors in rooms, we can start to look at physiological, then we can do risk stratification around your risk of cardiovascular disease, then we've got electronic health records uploading, or we've now got solutions where you don't need to go to a clinic. So I used to work in remote valley health. For cardiac, someone who lives an hour and a half away from the clinic has to drive in to get their vitals done. I can now sit at home. And you look at this, I go, wow. But the implications of this now are phenomenal. So my business as of yesterday, compared to what my business can deliver today has changed.

Daniel Franco: 1:36:40

Yeah, it's unbelievable. We've had a couple of podcasts. And I've mentioned him a few times. Dr. Terry Sweeney.

Chris Wilson: 1:36:46

I need to meet him for a coffee. You do Terry?

Daniel Franco: 1:36:49

Yeah. Reach out like an intro. Yeah. Because the AI stuff they're doing in the digital health world is unbelievable. It's because he's the CEO of digital health, CRC. They're doing some amazing stuff. And then we've got Matthew Michael, which has been on this show as well. He runs a company called Plexi. Kit, which is all about AI. Yeah. And you just say, and we actually had a podcast with Matthew about the rise of AI and what that looks like, yep. You know, Thomas Mitchell from biome bank. They're the drug producing company for got ulcers and stuff like that utilizing AI in their in their work as well. I mean, for me, it just makes sense. If you're going down that and you can collect data for you. It just makes sense that if you're gathering that information on a larger scale and utilizing it from an environmental point of view, yep. Give some really excellent.

Chris Wilson: 1:37:45

And I have to be you know, I'm very clear. I'm it's all stress related for me. I don't want to know, I want to go medical or anything like that. Yeah, absolutely. But my big thing. Yeah, I've got lots of big thing, the interdisciplinary approach. So at the moment, got lots of multidisciplinary so you've got probably your head go see a psych got problem you got guys in dietician on. And I just look at this and go still today, we don't communicate. There is still this fractured, even in sport, the athlete is the center of what we're trying to achieve in their performance. So yet, the physios don't talk to the performance coaches, don't talk to the nutritionist. It's all segregated. siloed. Yeah, I'm in business yet. And I still see today. And I assume that even big businesses have got this sorted out, and I go inside now go. This is ridiculous.

Daniel Franco: 1:38:42

The bigger they are the more solid there. Yep. There is a company that we work with these 200,000 people strong. And you ask anyone in that business, who's in charge of this, and now I got no idea. Yeah, like, I don't Yeah, you'd speak to this person? Literally 16 people I've spoken to, and I still haven't hit the right person yet. Yeah. It is. What

Chris Wilson: 1:39:03

a waste of everyone's time. Well, it's

Daniel Franco: 1:39:05

I think, I mean, they're very, very, they're doing very, very well. Yeah. That's Yes. Yeah, that's nice. Yeah, I know. But it is it is just one of those companies that you're Yeah, it's this hard to really difficult to manage.

Chris Wilson: 1:39:20

So now the to the point is that there's the datasets, we've got to be careful, because one of the big conversations that I'm trying to navigate is that how do I protect you and your data from the organization or anyone outside the organization using that against you? Yeah. So when we start to talk about stress, are we leaving people vulnerable because of their data? And that's the key thing that I'm very adamant about in everything that I do in everything we create is your data set and the alerts and the notifications have to Yeah,

Daniel Franco: 1:39:58

what that goes back to that question I asked you before you start hiring people based on their risk burnout profile, whatever it might be, if you have that data, potentially could people put people at risk of not getting work? Yes, right. People might some businesses might get I'm not. I'm not hiring you too much in the red for me, and that completely contradicts what you're trying to do.

Chris Wilson: 1:40:20

Yep. Which is protect people. Yeah. Next question. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah.

Daniel Franco: 1:40:25

What? If you could invite three people to dinner? Who would you invite? And I'm just gonna say, let's assume your wife is already invited. Okay. She wasn't gonna get invited. I'm sorry. Sorry. We can edit this thing on

Chris Wilson: 1:40:54

three people, three people, and Uberman. Hoover, Andrew Huberman. Yes.

Daniel Franco: 1:41:01

Why Andrew? Ah,

Chris Wilson: 1:41:03

he's a neuro Stanford lecturer. His content online so YouTube? Yeah. Probably an hour and a half to two hour videos on each. Huh. Just fascinating. And I like it to specialize

Daniel Franco: 1:41:19

in your you're a science. Yeah.

Chris Wilson: 1:41:23

Yeah, yeah. And so there's one. Yeah, I'm suppose ski because I've heard him speak. So he wrote the book, Why zebras don't get ulcers. Okay. And he would go out and live with the the apes governors. And you know, just because mad, looks mad and would be a lot of fun because Oh, yes. Here's my third person I would invite I'm going down lots of different avenues. Frank Lampard.

Daniel Franco: 1:41:57

Chelsea Gretchen. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What wouldn't you? Superstar? If you had access to a time machine? Where would you go? Future? Yeah.

Chris Wilson: 1:42:13

Is that what you mean? Or does it have to be past known?

Daniel Franco: 1:42:15

Absolutely doesn't because I wouldn't go back. And,

Chris Wilson: 1:42:20

yeah, I'm excited about I'm not, I don't dwell on the past, and I don't have regret and guilt and all those things. I just, mainly because I had to train myself. And it is a skill, so I had to train it. And it's a waste of energy. And so I'm all about energy efficiencies, and I just have to really be brutally honest about the fact that learn what I've learned from the past is absolutely 100%. Relevant, but dwelling and ruminating and guilt and regret are a waste of my time, and I don't have a lot of time to give. So I don't waste it. So I'd like Time Machine. Yeah. Well, I'm gonna go to the future and look at the exciting stuff. Let's

Daniel Franco: 1:43:04

say yes. How far ahead?

Chris Wilson: 1:43:07

Not far still, so it's relevant for me. So I still do the maybe 50 years.

Daniel Franco: 1:43:16

I might be dead then. Yeah, fairly crystal ball and you're still alive. crystal

Chris Wilson: 1:43:19

balls and time machines. This is where are we going? Anywhere we liked

Daniel Franco: 1:43:24

most dress. If you had one super healthy, one superpower. What would it be? If you Sorry? Well, if you could have one superpower, what would it be?

Chris Wilson: 1:43:41

Interesting. I'll tell you a story.

Daniel Franco: 1:43:44

You can quickfire. But I

Chris Wilson: 1:43:48

sit around the lake in New Zealand, three people traveling, we asked this very same question. And I answered a lot one set up. He'd like to be invisible to watch people when they're naked, which is really weird.

Daniel Franco: 1:44:02

It's very scary. But

Chris Wilson: 1:44:05

I said healing hands healing here. Yeah, so I'd like to have the power of healing to the hands. This was 20 years ago, maybe longer. And which led me on my way to become a therapist. So yeah, great. So that came true for me and my superpower. Would you

Daniel Franco: 1:44:24

say that? Is it like the moment you touch anything it heals? Or is it like an activated thing? And turns on?

Chris Wilson: 1:44:30

Are we talking about the detail of the super elite I'm really interested in now I think healing should resonate, rather than just a one touch heal. Okay, because if it resonates, I impact those around me as opposed to just the one person in front of me.

Daniel Franco: 1:44:45

Okay. Can you can you can you heal people's thoughts or is it just a physical thing?

Chris Wilson: 1:44:52

Do you think they're separate?

Daniel Franco: 1:44:55

No. I don't know. I mean, what is the thought it's not physical?

Chris Wilson: 1:45:00

What dictates the thought back emotion? What is emotion? It's just a chemical just a series of

Daniel Franco: 1:45:06

Yeah, winning another hour. We're gonna skip to the next thing with the hands. And so that's led to where you are today that one superpower question. Yep, that's amazing.

Chris Wilson: 1:45:17

I'm still trying to protect and heal sounds poxy saying out loud, but I don't even have it's not on a mission statement or it's not my purpose or anything like that. It's just something I always end up falling into. Whether it be personal training was about, you know, it's not about running marathons. It was always about getting people to improve and develop and traveling with the squad. So it was never really about winning matches. It was about supporting those young men and women who were going through that development. Yeah, I used to travel with a soccer squad. Yeah. And then and then set and all this plenty. Yeah. No one makes it No. Very small. Watchmen.

Daniel Franco: 1:45:59

Did you travel with? Stay? Yeah, okay. Yep. Beautiful. Excellent. All right, last.

Chris Wilson: 1:46:08

Stop talking.

Daniel Franco: 1:46:10

Last question. What's your best dad joke?

Chris Wilson: 1:46:14

Or Milan to say it? Yes. No. Is it a joke? Or I'm gonna say it's just my favorite. A blind man walks into a supermarket is swinging his guy dog around his head. shop assistants. Excuse me, sir, why on earth you're doing this is I'm just having a look around.

Daniel Franco: 1:46:31

Brilliant, that. That could possibly be the best adjunct we've had on the show. We've had 50 Odd episodes. That's the best one yet.

Chris Wilson: 1:46:41

Then if I said dad joke, is it big? Yeah. No, it's brilliant. Yeah, good. Yeah. Cool, Daniel.

Daniel Franco: 1:46:51

Oh, brilliant. Thank you very much for your time today, Chris. It's been an amazing chat. We, I think we've gone down a few rabbit holes, we come back up and we've got there eventually. But we're Why don't think we actually had a destination. We've just no planning on talking and learning a little bit more about stress the body understanding ourselves and where we're off to thank you for all the work that you're doing out there in the world and helping people through this. I think it's definitely an area of need. And I hope to see your business flourish because people Yeah, I think people need help and businesses need to, at very least understand what is happening with their people in this space.

Chris Wilson: 1:47:31

Yeah, thank you so much. It's been absolute pleasure. I love having these moments to be able to verbalize and share and because the way your brain works and the way your thought process, I've got my own version of what I think people need and want. And then when you speak to people you understand are that's how they perceive that. And that's what they're really interested in. When I first started my business, people often say to me, your language is so technical. How, how do I understand it? And that was a big learning curve for me.

Daniel Franco: 1:48:03

Put it in layman's terms, these any plans for a book or anything like that?

Chris Wilson: 1:48:07

I've already got the name of my book. Yeah. What's that? Oh, can I share? It? It's up to you. Push Push bright.

Daniel Franco: 1:48:13

Yes. Nice. It's already sorry. In the it's in the works.

Chris Wilson: 1:48:20

Ah, has been for years. Thanks, Tom. Yeah.

Daniel Franco: 1:48:24

Excellent. Thank you very much. Where can we find you?

Chris Wilson: 1:48:30

Stress hyphen. scientist.com is the website www dot. LinkedIn is the most active profile for me. So Chris Wilson, the stress scientist, stress scientist here, you'll see my beautiful black and white James Bond picture. Yeah, go and check it out. When I was actually freezing my bath. But that's okay.

Daniel Franco: 1:48:53

Brilliant. Thanks again, Chris. We really appreciate your time. And thank you everyone for listening in. We'll catch you next time. Yeah, thank you. Cheers. Thanks for listening to the podcast or you can check out the show notes if there was anything of interest to you and find out more about us at Synergyiq.com.au I am going to ask though, if you did like the podcast, it would absolutely mean the world to me if you could subscribe, rate and review. And if you didn't like it, that's alright too. There's no need to do anything. Take care guys. All the best.

Synergy IQ: 1:49:27

Thank you once again for joining us here at creating synergy. It's been great been great spending this time with you please jump on to the synergy IQ Facebook and LinkedIn page where the discussion continues after the show. Join our mailing list so you'll know what's happening next at Synergy q.com.au. And of course don't orget to subscribe to this odcast and if you really njoyed it, please share it with our friends.