Creating Synergy Podcast
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OCTOBER 13, 2021
#53 - Leonie McKeon, China-Educated Strategist, on the Sun Tzu's 36 Chinese Strategies and doing Business with China
Transcript
Synergy IQ:
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Daniel Franco:
to join us and welcome back to another episode of The creating synergy podcast. My name is Daniel Franco and today we have Leonie McKeon on the show who is an expert in Sunsoo 36 Chinese strategies, which were derived from the infamous book, The Art of War. Further to this expertise, Jani is a China educated strategic, a business consultant, an internationally published author, a workshop presenter, and a keynote speaker. She lived in the Greater China region for several years where she learned Mandarin and immersed herself in Chinese culture. During her time in China, she noticed that all the Chinese people at their core have knowledge of the timeless negotiating strategies known as the 36 Chinese strategies derived from Sun Tzu's book The Art of War, that she became obsessed with him, and she decided to build a career around helping people understand them. She states that these strategies have fundamental concepts within the Chinese culture, and manifest themselves in all aspects of Chinese business negotiation, and everyday life. Leone has worked with many hundreds of business people, and written six books to help people understand how to use these 36 strategies in any business environment. In this episode Leanna and I touched on her journey today from backpacking all over the world to spending years living and working in Asia and how she became an expert in the art of doing business with China. And she shares some learnings and tips on where to start. Leone and I also spoke at length of her passion for the 36 Chinese strategies, and we deep dive into five specific strategies we should learn he was kind enough to provide some very clear and practical example for all those who are interested in both strategy and doing business with China. This is a must listen for you. If you love the episode, which I'm sure you absolutely will be sure to hit the subscribe button and check us out at Synergy. iq.com.au and synergy IQ on all the social media outlets. So welcome back to the creating synergy podcast. My name is Daniel Franco, your host and today we have the wonderful Leonie McKeon on the show. Thank you for joining us, Leonie.
Leonie Mckeon:
Great. It's great to be here. Daniel, thank you,
Daniel Franco:
Leonie, youare an expert in all things, the 36 strategies and business with China basically, are you able to can we kick off the the podcast with a little bit of background around how you came to be because you've got a lot of followers on LinkedIn, and a lot of support your YouTube videos are amazing. So it'd be really interesting, just hearing how you ended up in this world.
Leonie Mckeon:
Sure, it was a little bit of an accident, actually. And I suppose that often happens to most people who end up to be experts in their field. Many years ago, my friend and I were traveling around the world with backpacks on. And in those days, there was no internet or email, you know, Facebook or anything like that. So off, we went traveling around the world, and we went to Europe, we drove a car around Europe for three months. Then we ended up in Israel living on a kibbutz for six months. And then we continued the journey, I said to my friend, do you want to go back to England and get a job? Or should we just keep going and we decided to just go for broke and keep going. So off we went. And we went to Egypt and Turkey, and then we ended up in India. And almost 18 months have gone past and I said to my friend, we were actually in Kashmir at the time when Kashmir was Kashmir. And I said to him how much money you got left? And he said, he told me and I thought oh, we have to get a job. We actually have to work so I had this fabulous idea that we could go to Hong Kong and get a job that would work really well. Why not coffee shop or something like that, you know, we'd be fabulous. So off we went and we stayed in this really downbeat youth hostel in Chungking Mansions, and if anybody has been to Hong Kong, they will know that Chungking Mansions is pretty downbeat, but that's all we had money for. It was it was summer in Hong Kong, no air conditioning, so it was absolutely sweltering, but that's okay. You know, we're looking for a job. And so off we went. And we No luck. Because what we didn't realize was that we looked like we had come from India. So we had drawstring pants and long hair and, and everyone in Hong Kong was walking around in smart business suits. So nobody was really going to give us a job. And then, I mean, I don't know whether any of your listeners have had the situation where someone has changed their life, and you've only met them for five minutes, and you never see them again, during this journey, that's actually happened to me twice. So the first time we're in this youth hostel, and this guy comes up and he says, What are you guys doing here? And I said, we're trying to find a job. And he said, go to Taiwan. And I said, Really? What can we do there? Now remember, I've got no university degree at this time. And he said, You can teach English really? Now my only experience with Chinese culture. I used to live in Melbourne. And I remember every Thursday night, we'd go to a Chinese restaurant and I would order lemon chicken. It was in Chapel Street. That was it. And I had that was, and I hadn't got the chopsticks at that time. But that was, you know, many people. Many people ask me, Daniel, you know, did you did you understand Mandarin? Did you? Did you have experience in Chinese culture before you did this? Well, the answer is no. So off we went to Taiwan. And we stayed once again in a pretty cheap youth hostel. But it was a bit more upmarket than than Hong Kong. Now. There's noticeboards English teacher wanted English teacher wanted a Well, yeah. However, they wanted American English teachers. So guess what? We're Australian. Yeah. Now, no job. Yes. So and no university degree either. So Oh, university degree and American? What are we going to do? We're now in Taiwan. So, you know, what do you do? Well, I decided that I could speak American, so I could learn to speak American. So I changed my accent. And I worked out that our long A's are they're short. So our, our, our glasses, their glass, our classes, their class, yes. Okay. Our apps are the ORS so father becomes father. And I learned all the vocabulary like you know, high top gym, boot boat, you know, boot, trunk, you know, sweater jumper, all of the candy, everything, everything. And so, and my university degree, Well, luckily, there's no internet, because my university degree was always arriving in the post. And for some reason, it never arrived. And so, you know, I really slipped through the cracks in Taiwan, in the way that I got some really good English teaching jobs. Now, we went to Taipei. So in Taiwan, there are two major cities, there's Taipei and Gaussian Taipei is the is the is the capital city there. And so we're living in Taipei, and, you know, six months ago passed, and you know, I'm in these, I ended up with this fabulous English teaching job. And you know, the boss is always saying, where's your degree, the only and I said my mother sending in in the post, but it never arrived. And I'm sure that he knew that what was going on? Anyway. And my, my, my American accent was from Boston, because I worked out that that was the closest accent to Australia. Yeah. And so I got trained in English teaching, you know, really fabulous training and ended up to be quite a good English teacher. However, six months ago passed, and I don't speak any Mandarin. I don't read any Mandarin, my life is becoming really small, because everything in Taipei is in Chinese. Okay. And so, you know, we're living in this apartment. And the bills were coming under the door, they don't you know, they don't get sent to your your email because there is no email. And it's electricity or gas. And I couldn't read them because they're all in Chinese. And I was continually taking this to work. And so I thought, you know, how am I going to survive? So I decided to start to learn to learn Chinese. And so I put myself in Chinese school 10 to 12 in the morning, and then I would study Chinese characters in the afternoon. And then from four to six or four to 530. I would teach a children's class because that's when the children's classes are and then from six to nine, I would teach an adult class so that's that was my life for a while. Then. You know, my Chinese got really good. I started to read all the signs and audio. It's like putting glasses on you know, when you can't read something, all of a sudden everything begins comes to life. You feel human again? Yeah, like, oh, I can read that sign, it's actually uh, you know, you know, that's a motorbike shop, that's a juice bar, that's something else. And you know, and I didn't have to get everything written down and, you know, try to, you know, try to communicate when I didn't understand the language moved down to Gaussian, which is the second major city, everything is in Chinese and Gaussian everything so, so that was great for my language skills. And I ended up living in Taiwan for almost five years. So in Gaussian, I could become Australian, again, because they really wanted English teachers. And you could really only live in Gaussian at that time if you had the language because you really couldn't survive without it. And so the apartments were probably half the price. For Rent, the the salaries were good, because there weren't that many people that spoke Mandarin. And so then, then my friend and I decided to open a clothing business, bringing clothing from Katmandu into Taiwan. Yes, so I basically did three things in Taiwan, I taught English as a second language, I got a really good job in a children's language school called Macmillan, who have like 8000 Students of editing the a series of children's ESL books, I was the only foreigner in the office. So that was a real that was a real learning curve, and also opened a small clothing business bringing clothing from Katmandu into Taiwan. Because we would go to Nepal, December, January, February, because it's Chinese New Year, that kind of thing. So there's not a huge amount going on, you know, for foreigners in Taiwan, so it's a great time to go somewhere else, get all these things might come back and sell them. Then I thought, you know, I want to get a university degree, you know, I've done all this stuff. And my life became, you know, came to a bit of a brick wall, because I was like a sponge, I had no analytical framework to, to, to look at things. So you know, when you have a university degree, you put it through the framework. So I thought back to Australia, you know, now eight, almost eight years have gone past seven years of compositor embarked on a journey. That's right, since I came back. Well, I did come back to Australia for a visit. However, you know, not living in Australia. So I thought, well, prior to that, I'll go to China, because I had not been to China, and I had the language, I had the culture. And I thought, once I get back to Australia, and I decided to live in Adelaide, once I get back to Australia, that will be it for traveling, you know, going to China because I'll become a full time student, I won't have the money, you know, I knew my life would change. So I decided to go to China for three months. So I did the East Coast. I you know, one Joe, you know, and I went, you know, up to Shanghai and, you know, up to Beijing. And then I thought, wow, you know, this is really good. Because I'm understanding my language skills were getting more and more I was understanding the provincial differences, the accents. Now, I'm not talking about dialects. I'm talking about accents. Because in Taiwan, thank you is like Scythia, whereas in China, it's CSEA. So I started to understand it's like Americans say, Father, we say, Father, so I've got all these accents, you know, different accents in Chinese, which is fabulous. So I went back and redid my visa, in Hong Kong. And then I ended up staying in China for a year, backpacking around, I went right over near the Burmese border right over need to bit. There were times when I did not speak English for three weeks, and really spins your brain, you know, it really came back to Australia. And then I became a full time student at the University of Adelaide. And that was in 1993. I think that was your kind of full time student, which is what I studied anthropology. Now. I had no idea when I started when I started university that I would want to do anthropology, right. I started off with agencies now, anthropology is great. It really opened my mind was fantastic. So my BA is in anthropology, which is absolutely fantastic. So then I thought no, you know, I like the to be an I'd like to be an academic. However, I've got this entrepreneurial sort of bubbling thing going along, you know, in my body because I'm from a business family. So I thought, China, you know, I'll look at what I can do in the business world. So I left the university and I still remember going out of those gates and thinking I have no idea what I'm going to do. And I told the lecturer and he said I'm a bit dissed. You know, he was disappointed. I wasn't going on in anthropology, but wished me well. Okay. Anyway, I found Located a scholarship with the University of Adelaide called big business initiatives from graduates on, okay. They give out five of these scholarships in those days. This was 1997. All right. And so I won that scholarship for 1998. And that was fantastic. Because the University of Adelaide completely support you part of the criteria was though, to do a postgraduate degree in business, so you're doing a business degree, you're running a business, you know, the whole thing. I opened a business, they still do that. No, no, no. Well, I think they have scholarships, but not like, what it's changed. And so I opened a business called Chinese language and cultural advice, when I opened that business in 1998. And I ended up with eight staff, all Chinese, okay, well, Australian citizens, but Chinese staff, we did translations, interpretations, cultural awareness, workshops, you know, everything to do with China. Now, the second time, someone changed my life. In this process, when I met, someone changed my life within about 15 minutes, my direction. In the year 2000, I'm going to China on my regular trips to Shanghai, go to a networking function, meet someone. And he says we only let's go for coffee. Fabulous is an Australian guy had been living in Shanghai for 10 years. Alright. Very, you know, very fluent in Mandarin understood the culture really well. And it's really interesting, Daniel, because when I go back to Shanghai, I look at that coffee shop, where we went, and that's actually a Starbucks coffee shop, because that's all it was there at that time. And I think that's when my life changed about China. And he said to me, Leone, have you heard of the 36 Chinese strategies? And I said, You mean, the strategies from The Art of War? And he said, Yes. And I said, Well, I've read the book. But I don't see how strategies of two and a half 1000 years, have two and a half, 1000 years old, have any bearing on the contemporary business world. And he said, get to know these strategies intimately upside down and back the front. And he looked at the window, and he said, because that is the key to understanding Chinese thinking. They are like idioms. Like don't cry over spilt milk. We know what that means. It's like an idiom. All right, but it doesn't mean that someone is standing there crying, and the milk is spilling. All right, we know what it means. Every Chinese person has heard of the 36 Chinese strategies. They know what most of the men, whether they consciously use them or not. They are in their unconscious. So I thought, okay, so I'm sitting on a plane. And I thought, right, hmm. This is a journey now because what I knew was there's the art of war, but there's nothing in between to to, to interpret the strategies in the contemporary business world, because the Art of War is about Emperor's and bows and arrows and crossing rivers and
Daniel Franco:
yeah, 100% Oh, look, I've got two translations at home on my bookshelf. Yeah. And you read both of them and 100%, right, when you say that idioms, you really try to understand, you know, and we'll go into a few show materially, but Lou, the tiger and all this sort of stuff, and you start thinking what is going on? So yeah, what is going on? So So is that where the idea of creating your own books came?
Leonie Mckeon:
Well, well, I'm sitting on a plane and absolutely, and I thought, okay, when I get back to my office on Monday morning, I am going to ask my staff. So I go in, and I say, Have you heard of the 36? Chinese strategies now looked at me as if to say, yes, haven't you? And they all had their favorite strategies, and they started talking. So then I started, is it taught within this schooling system? Not okay. Daniel, where did you learn Don't cry over spilt milk? Do you know
Daniel Franco:
what I'm saying?
Leonie Mckeon:
That's my everyday life. That's my point. You learn it through everyday life. But
Daniel Franco:
I wouldn't. It's funny because I wouldn't sit around going and what's my favorite idiom?
Leonie Mckeon:
They didn't say, What's my favorite? Someone said, Oh, I really liked strategy. 30. That's what that was saying, you know, in that way, and not talking about it. So then I took each strategy and gave each strategy contemporary business example, which took me a very long time because I interviewed Chinese people. I looked at case studies, and then I started delivering workshops on them. Okay, so this is in the year 2000 got 2002 2003. I'm then asked if I can deliver keynote at conferences, so you know, three strategies at a conference in a keynote. And in that time, the mining boom was happening in WA so I was flying a lot to WA and doing conferences. So I became very focused on the strategies the staff were doing the rest of the work,
Daniel Franco:
what was it about The strategies that drew you in that,
Leonie Mckeon:
well, I knew that if to be an expert in Chinese culture, I knew that I had to know them. I knew that that's the piece I had to know,
Daniel Franco:
was there an element of you ever thinking? No, this would be the sort of the step to me building a business that, you know, can't take on the world. If I know these strategies, obviously, they work the 2000 years old? No,
Leonie Mckeon:
I think, um, I knew that if I put the time and effort in and be able to interpret it. And that's one of the things that anthropology teaches you is how to take an idea and make it and make it understandable. To someone who doesn't understand it, put it in layman's terms it so then I started delivering conference at conferences. So, you know, I got onto the conference speaking circuit. So I work for, you know, some of the conference speaking bureaus.
Daniel Franco:
Yeah. You still do that today?
Leonie Mckeon:
I do. I do. Having said that, though, of course, you know, there weren't a lot of conferences. I still do conferences. Absolutely. It's part of my work. But obviously, I'm not traveling around to different places and doing conferences at the moment. And so when I'm at the conferences, people are saying, Leonie, we need a book, we need a book, have you got a book? And when you go to conferences, you see people sitting there signing their books, you know, and I thought, I like to be one of those people. So then I thought, well, I will start writing books. And so I, I segmented the books into six because the strategies are arranged in groups of six. So the first six are the advantageous strategies, then you've got the next six the opportunistic strategies, then the confusion strategies. That's how they're arranged. Yeah,
Daniel Franco:
well, so I started into you have to read them sequentially.
Leonie Mckeon:
On my books, you don't you can you can grab whichever. And it will make sense. And I That's why I didn't want to have people you know, having to read each book, you know.
Daniel Franco:
So tell me about the titles because you've got the tiger and the dragon there too. And you kind of want your first book. Tiger and second books dragon that's your books Tiger, Woods dragon. So
Leonie Mckeon:
they go like time time the tiger deceive the dragon. You know, lower the tiger endure, endure the dragon, flee the dragon, that kind of thing. So each book has these books title relates to the strategies in the book. So for example, time the target is negotiating when you are in a position of power. Okay, deceive the dragon is the Advent is the opportunistic strategies where you want to retain power. So each book has their own their own angle. Yeah.
Daniel Franco:
I love it. I love it. We can we can I geek out a little bit. I love the sons of his books. Sorry, he's out of war strategies. Can we jump into a few and sort of discuss them? I've got a few sort of pre prepared. So strategy one for the Emperor to cross the sea. Okay. Help me understand that.
Leonie Mckeon:
Okay, strategy one. Yes. Fool the Emperor to cross the sea now. Just like Don't cry over spilt milk. These strategies have a code inside them. So you don't The point is with about about the strategies, like don't cry over spilt milk. You don't take them literally, you have to understand the code inside. And that's been my job to understand that. So first of all, to get the idea of Thor the Emperor to cross the sea. I'm going to tell you the story, Daniel, the the, the ancient story. Okay, so, so EMPro the, alright. He wanted to fight Korea. All right. And what happened was, he was too afraid to go across the sea. He was petrified of going across the sea. And his generals thought, how are we going to get him on the boat to go over the sea to Korea? What so what they did was they thought, Okay, what does he like doing? Alright, he loves wine. And he loves food. And he loves being entertained. And he loves, He loves singing. So they did the boat up like a big party, and they bought him onto the boat. They sat him down. And then they started the entertainment. So he sang and he drank and he ate. All of a sudden he was in Korea it was in because they did they put they made the boat familiar for the Emperor to cross the sea. So in this case, you look at the strategy, who is the Emperor and what is the sea so in Chinese context, let's say you're going to make your Chinese your Chinese contact, wherever that may be, whether it be in the next state, the next city in China, wherever. And Chinese people bearing being very hospitable pick you up at the airport. Now the difference here is that in Western culture, negotiation starts the next day because we compartmentalize things. Negotiation in Western culture is one word. Whereas in Chinese culture, it encompasses 36 strategies. Alright, so you picked up at the airport, and you think, Well, you know, my meeting, start the next day, that's fine. And so then you're taken to the restaurant, and you feel comfortable, you feel good, because, you know, you're getting on well with your Chinese counterparts. And then on the table, there's the beer from your, from your city. And so you, you feel really, so they do a bit of research, comfortable, they do a bit of research, just like the just like the Emperor on the bus. Alright. And then they ask you a question. And it's a question about price or size or color, and you answer it, but you, you are sorry, that you answered it in that way. Because you're not in the meeting. And now you've answered something that could potentially be detrimental to your to you, you know, getting the negotiation, you know, for that time. So that's so, so the idea is that you understand, you understand that, you know, when you're when you're picked up at the airport, and taken to the restaurant, you are beginning to negotiate, you are the Emperor, you are being fooled to go across the sea, but which sea? Where's the shore? And what are you doing? Okay, and so as long as you understand that, that strategy could be inaction, then, you know, you're okay. But and that doesn't mean sitting at a sitting at the restaurant, and, you know, thinking, oh, you know, what will happen? That you just understand that negotiation starts that people often ask me, the only when do we start the negotiation? I say, Well, okay. When did you make that person when we went out for dinner with them? That's when you started. Yeah, but we weren't talking about money doesn't matter. That's when you started.
Daniel Franco:
So how can you relate that to an Australian to Australian context? So you know, there be in Australia, is it you know, is that the wining and dining that we see that happen? You know, let me take you out for a coffee, let me whatever it might be to get information out of you
Leonie Mckeon:
fully and purge across the sea. Alright, I'll give you an example. In an Australian context, let's say your television. Yeah. All right. On the news, that talking about, you know, news things, and then they put it into the news that, you know, food lands or somewhere have got this amazing mate special that they're bringing in, what they're doing is they're putting advertising into the news. Okay, so but we don't know what's advertising. We are the Emperor. And we are being forced to go across the sea. So they're putting it inside something so subtle. That's right. So inside an environment, it's basically taking, taking someone from taking someone through the familiar environment they know into the unfamiliar. So I'm not familiar with that meet our but I am familiar with the news. And news presenter. That's right. So so how you, you know, it's a fabulous strategy to know because, you know, you can, if you have a new product, you can put this, you need to understand your consumer and what they already know. And then you bring it through that.
Daniel Franco:
Yeah. So it's a lot of research that goes into that one strategy, really understanding your target.
Leonie Mckeon:
Well, think about it with China, if you're, if you're marketing a product to China, you may need to you may need to modify it, but how much do you modify it? So you you don't want it to be to Australian? So people think or to Western? So people don't understand it? Yeah, but you don't want it to be to Chinese. So they think it's a Chinese product.
Daniel Franco:
What's interesting, you know, this is the Chinese business to business in China, right? They would they understand these methodologies being used against them.
Leonie Mckeon:
Okay. Let's let's take out being used against them. All right. This is not about people using things against people. They these are simply strategies to understand thinking, okay, all right. Yeah. And so, yes, they're from the warring ties, but they're maneuvers Yeah, they think
Daniel Franco:
so it's not a d ceptio
Leonie Mckeon:
No, it will. You know, it's about, you know, do they understand? It's like, the these strategies are fundamental in thinking, yeah, it's not even people don't even think about them. Yeah. Don't even think about them. It's just they understand them. I have never met a Chinese person. If I've said to them, have you heard of 3g strategies? They'll obviously say yes,
Daniel Franco:
yeah. Yeah. So good. I love it. Strategy three. Oh, yes. Murder with a borrowed knife.
Leonie Mckeon:
Strategy three. Now, when we hear murder with a borrowed knife, some people Oh, no, as I said, you don't take it literally. That's the important thing with this. Because our, our, you know, our sort of psyche says all murder all their war strategies, their deception strategies, they're trying to murder us? No. All right. Murder with a bird knife is about delegation. All right, so
Daniel Franco:
throwing someone under the bus? Well,
Leonie Mckeon:
you're okay. Chinese, Chinese culture negative view? Sorry, Chinese culture is hierarchical. Yeah. All right, very hierarchical. So for example, you do not call your lecturer by their first name, you do not call your boss by their first name, most of the time, it's a hierarchical culture. So you're, you go into a meeting, alright. And, and I've been into several meetings, or hundreds of men, because I've been doing this business for over 20 years, 20 years or something like a long time. And so you go into a meeting, and who is the most powerful person in the meeting in Chinese culture. Now, in Western culture, generally, it's the person that has the nicest suit, they talk the most, they look like they are the CEO, we know. But in Chinese culture, the higher up you go, the less you talk, and the less visible you are. So the the leader of the meeting is the one that says the least is the one that moves the list. Because they are murdering with a borrowed knife, they are letting the person that's just beneath them in hierarchy, to answer the difficult questions to the to do the proposal, because they are conserving their energy, this strategy is about conserving your energy. Now, if you can think of it like this, think of a chessboard, right. Think of the king on the chessboard. Once both the king moves the list on the board, but the king is the most powerful piece. So when you're looking at Chinese business culture, and you want to see who is the most powerful, you look for the king on the chessboard, they are the ones that move the list and say the list. So this is about delegation. So the idea is, if you are trying to always talk to someone who is higher up and trying to get to them, that won't happen. You need to look at who is the person that is just below that person. And I've dealt with a lot of companies that deal with factories, all the only you know, they're not, you know that the specs on that table aren't right. And we're trying to get to the heart, the power up person. And it's like, no, you need to make a rule, you need to build a relationship with a person that is just below that person, one or two people and then you will get
Daniel Franco:
Yeah, it's a azing. You respect that traditio , and then you actually will ge will have some level of
Leonie Mckeon:
It's knowing because otherwise you can literally just bashing your head against a brick wall and saying, oh, you know, they don't call me. Of course, they're not supposed to be others, the next person will call you.
Daniel Franco:
I like that one. Strategy six, make noise in yeast and attack in the way.
Leonie Mckeon:
Okay, make a noise nice to attack in the West. Yes. All right. Now, an example of this one. Let's say I have a product. Let's say I get pins made in China. All right, and I am, I am not happy about the price. And I want the price to go down because I feel like I'm paying too much for this. So I approached the person that I've developed the relationship in the factory, and I've got a good relationship. So I understand moto with the burden off. I'm really good about that. Now that's fabulous. And what happens is I start talking to them, and then they start talking about the the, the size and the color and the packaging and they take me right away from the price. So all of a sudden, the conversation has shifted, and I don't know because they've made a noise in it and in the eastern attack in the West. Now the other way that this can happen they I might say, Sure, we'll agree with the process. And I think once again, I've conquered China, this is fabulous. This is terrific, however, then it's like, well, we can do that. But what we need to do is just use a different material, you know, but it's, it's, it's just as good but will use a different material, which is slightly less expensive. Now I need to know, to counteract this strategy number one, the first example I need to keep them on track, come back to the price. The second example is, I need to go into that meeting with all the variables. Because if they say, well, we'll use a different a different material, is that going to be okay? Because are my consumers going to be happy with that, I look at the pen, and they say, Oh, but I bought this pen six months ago, and it was a different product. So if I'm happy with it, that's okay. But before going into the meeting, to counteract that strategy, I need to be looking at all those variables, so that I can tick those boxes. So that's how making noise in the east and attacking the West happens. I do have a good example of that being I think it's a reasonable example of that being used in an Australian context on Chinese people. Let's say you're in real estate. Alright. And you've got a Chinese family that's really interested in this amazing house. However, you know, that they're good negotiators. Alright? And ot No. Okay. A different example. They have asked you, what houses do you have on your books? All right. Now, you know, they're really good negotiators. So you know that they're going to bring you down on price. All right. So what you do is you research what their lifestyle is. So do they want to live near the CBD? Do they have children they want to, you know, to be near a school? Do they want to be near a shopping center? Do they like the beach, then what you do is you come up with a house, it can be expensive, right? You come up with a house that has all of those things that you have researched, so that you're actually making making a noise in the eastern attacking in the West, because you are focusing on things, everything back the price. So when you get to the price, it doesn't matter, because you have focused on all those things that that actually tick those boxes.
Daniel Franco:
Yeah, they want what they want. And then price is kind of irrelevant. Now. That's right.
Leonie Mckeon:
But if you went in just with a price and didn't say, oh, you know, this is right house. So you all those things, those those surrounding things that are important to that person, you can focus on that
Daniel Franco:
yellow, it's almost like providing them with their return on investment really, isn't it? Well, you
Leonie Mckeon:
know, it is and when you when you have everything that ticks the boxes of your needs, when it comes to price, price becomes almost irrelevant, because it takes in certain in certain situations, that it will definitely override it. But if you just came in with that straight up, you know, so this is about, you know, going around things.
Daniel Franco:
Absolutely. So strategy 11
Leonie Mckeon:
Oh, sacrificed the plum tree to preserve the peach tree? That's the one Yeah, okay. This is about this is about having short term goals to get the big picture. Alright, so to give away something that is short term interest to get a bigger term goal. So most businesses in Australia are way smaller than the businesses in China Yeah. So you need to know that when someone is connecting with you, are you their short term goals to get to the big thing now there's nothing wrong with that. But where do you sit in that now often these short term goals it could be for example, you know, offering us something like you know, if you've got an office in China offering you rent you know rent for free for a certain amount of time or you know, often in Chinese in Chinese consumer behavior is they really like you know, get buy one get one free
Daniel Franco:
little little giveaway before you just one and you know, build a relationship
Leonie Mckeon:
build relationship and strategy strategy 11 can be used you know for you know, gyms gyms door Yeah, you know, bring in a friend Sunday 10 day free day free trial that kind of thing. So sacrifice but But I suppose with this one you need to know what is your peach tree and what are you sacrificing? So think about it really clearly. And also think you the plum tree to get to their peach tree? Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah.
Daniel Franco:
Strategy 15 Little the tiger down The Mountain. Is that just the case of not playing in someone else's realm?
Leonie Mckeon:
Okay? Lua the tiger down the mountain. We, we look here once again at the code inside it. So who is the tiger? And what is the mountain? So when this strategy is played on out on you, you are the tiger. And the mountain is your comfort zone. Because Tiger tigers live in mountains. And there is a Chinese saying, when the tiger is on the plains, it is bullied by dogs. Okay, so this is about location, where are you going to negotiate? So for example, you know, if you're used to going to a particular city or a particular location, and a Chinese person says to you that your Chinese context is look, look, Daniel, you know, how about we go to our other office, because I'd like to show you this, this and this, or, you know, we'd like to take you out to here, they're in everywhere. Now, because you're used to going to that location, it is better that you push back. Because location, you're a bit nervous anyway, you might be talking about the price, this might be the big deal. So pulling back, pulling them back by saying well, because you may cause lots of face by just saying no, look, you know, thanks very much. But I'll take a raincheck on that. Definitely love to do that next time, and there will be no next time because you're saying that just to keep the pace. Because the idea is to bring you out of your location. Now, of course, lower the tiger down the mountain, the best place for the target to be is in their own mountain. So if you can be negotiating in your own location, that is the best scenario. But be very careful when you're when you're being lured out of your comfort zone. Okay? That, that you could be, you know, you could be quite nervous. And you know, you're already dealing with a different location. So therefore, you're dealing with negotiation, you're dealing with a different culture and a different location. So that you think about yourself with these, with these strategies. Once you when, you know when when you in the here's coming back to my anthropology in linguistics, when you give something in name, it becomes very powerful. And I find that when I train people and take people through these and you don't necessarily have to be dealing with China. When you when I take people through these Daniel, they can say, Oh, look, we're the tiger down the man who is the tiger? What is the mountain, you know, for the Emperor to cross the sea? Who is the Emperor? What is the sea? So it gives something a name? Yeah. So lower the tiger down the mountain you think, okay, am I taking the tiger out of the mountain? Or I'm either Tiger going down the mountain?
Daniel Franco:
Yeah. So you understand you're where you are in the context is like, I'm just using literally the tiger and mountain in, in the actual words that are there in front of me. I have a better chance attacking and killing the tiger if it's in the city as opposed to in the mountains, right? Like it just makes sense to me. But does that not contradict the strategy one? In sort of buttering up the Emperor?
Leonie Mckeon:
Well think about it this way. You're not killing the tiger. Okay, you're not killing the tiger. The tiger doesn't get killed. Okay, the tiger. You think about it, the tiger lives in a mountain. And when you're coming up for a negotiator so that you know strategy one is making you feel comfortable and all that kind of thing. Yes, but strategy 15 is more about when you're coming up to that negotiation strategy. 15 is part of the confronting strategies. All right. Strategy one is what we call the advantageous strategies for so this is a confrontational strategy. When you're in a confrontational situation. Know the tiger, the tiger, that's right,
Daniel Franco:
beautiful, the strategy 30 Change the role of a guest for that of the host.
Leonie Mckeon:
Okay. Now I see this strategy. I have seen this and see this strategy often when someone employs someone or contract someone to do an interpretation. So for example, you are meeting you know, a Chinese group, and they don't speak English. They speak very little English. One of the group does speak quite good English and they say, look, Daniel, don't worry about your internet. Peridot, you can use hours. So all of a sudden you've given them the the link into exchange the role of guests for that of host because first they become a guest, then they become a guys kind of host because not a ghost. Because because they are you are using their interpreter and then you know, that obviously will cross over to them now the other way. So that's a no, no. Yeah. All right.
Daniel Franco:
The other thing, Oh, if you are dealing with trying to always bring your own interpreter,
Leonie Mckeon:
yes. And always bring your own interpreter. However, whatever industry you are working in, make sure your interpreter knows that vocabulary, because just because someone speaks Chinese doesn't mean they know the vocabulary of your industry. Okay, you know, so, if you're in furniture, if you're in engineering, you know, if you're in it, you know, whatever they speak the lingo, you need to give them all of the words so that they can understand that in Chinese now. When you when you contract an interpreter, the rule of thumb is that they do not make contact, you know, exchanged business cards, or you know, or contacts or anything like that with the Chinese group. Alright, they are your eyes, your ears and your mouth. Alright, so you say three sentences, then they interpret you say three sentences, then they interpret, alright, so and they do not change anything in the interpretation. If you say all had that guy, that's not okay. They only interpret what you tell him now, because you need to put in a barrier, so they do not become the host. Because all of a sudden, if your interpreter is starting to starting to make friends, with the Chinese group, that all looks very well and good and wonderful, however, you then become, you know, you're in the backseat. Yeah. All right. So you need to always be the host. And exchange, the role of that of exchange, the role of guests for that of host can happen really easily. Because, you know, most people, you know, in Western culture, most people, you know, let's say in Australian culture, they don't have those skills. Yeah. And so, so we think, Oh, this is great, you know, you know, this person is interpreting, and then they can, they can do this, they can do that they can do this, they are only in an interpreter. So, you know, to make sure that they don't move into that host role, because you lose control in.
Daniel Franco:
Yeah, brilliant. Brilliant. Thank you for that. We'll jump into over some other questions. You're obviously a big part of your world is consulting with businesses, and helping them do with the Chinese business world? Yes. Someone who's fresh off the street entrepreneur, looking at some product, building some product wants to take it internationally, sees China, really as an as a great opportunity, has no idea where to start. It's very overwhelming, because the language barriers and everything else like that. I come to you. Where do we start? How does what does it look like?
Leonie Mckeon:
Yeah, okay. Most people come to me, when someone has said, wow, that'd be a great product for China. Yeah. So So what's a great product for China? At the moment, it could be mum and baby mum and baby care, anything in the health health sector, vitamin pills, anything to do with? You know, things like environmental technology, service services services
Daniel Franco:
today do they given and knowing that they are extremely intelligent in the business world and from strategically in strategic thinkers as well? Do they? Do they like the advice given from the Western world? Or do they prefer to stick to their their own knowledge base?
Leonie Mckeon:
Well put it this way? If my knowledge base was two and a half, 1000 years old, and it worked? I would keep using? Correct. That's it? I think. So there's no, there's no question about that. Even even when Chinese people have studied in Western culture, they still know about the 36 Chinese strategy. So they actually have both. And so I'm saying they don't think oh, you know, I'm going to use this strategy. I'm going to use this strategy. It is very much an unconscious action. So back to your question, Where does someone start? Alright. You know, the first thing I like to do is to get them you know, to get them understanding the strategies because once they go through each strategy, they understand not only the strategies but inside that, you know, the issue of face hierarchy as we've discussed in murder with a borrowed knife, also the concept of networking, which is called one, see how you do that. So, all of these,
Daniel Franco:
can you just touch on face what I see?
Leonie Mckeon:
Okay, face is about how you are seen in front of people. Now the differences people say, oh, you know, but Leone we have faced in, in our own culture here short. However, the difference is that in Australian culture, it is how I see myself in Chinese culture, it is how other people see me.
Daniel Franco:
All right. So it's very similar to my culture, which is the Italian lady guys understand
Leonie Mckeon:
that? Yeah, yeah. So that, you know, so the strategies encompass all of these things. So I like to take people through that, whether that be a group in a company, whether that be a one to one, take people through the strategies, then we and what happens is, then they start to understand like, fully input across to see, okay, I've got my, for example, my healthcare product, and straightaway, they start looking at, oh, okay, maybe I need to modify it. But I have to fully input across to see and they start to look at these strategies, then how they can use them, and also to how they are used on them. So they get really solid, like to get them really educated on that. And then we look at different avenues. So probably the first point of call is generally and as trade office in China, I've got connections in all the all the offices there. And they will do some really good research on what is out there. You know, so what, what, who are my competitors? Who are the distributors in China? So we start with that process? First of all, getting once they understand these, they their head just goes well, and they feel so much more confident about? What do you do?
Daniel Franco:
It's, it's amazing, because a lot of I'm going to paint entrepreneurs with a brushy that would rather just get in and do the work and get on with it and move forward and move quickly and move at speed to do the research and do the background at all seems to? Yeah, is that something that you come across? Quite a bit?
Leonie Mckeon:
Look, most people I find, you know, people who really do their work. And, you know, it's really just about understanding, you know, if you're going if you, if you marketing your product in Australia, let's say you're marketing it over to Western Australia, you will understand Western Australia. Right? It's the same thing. Look, if you don't understand China, it's highly likely you you will eventually come unstuck. Yeah, because a situation arises and you don't know what's happening, because you simply don't know the why behind it. And once we know the why behind something is happening, then we can understand it. So, you know, it's it is definitely advised that people who are dealing with China, if they want to do it properly, to look at,
Daniel Franco:
they need to do their research they need to do or just it's a good model for any business plan, right to do the research, really understand it come up with your own strategy and how you're going to get into into the world of China. What is the benefit, though? What is the benefit of doing all that extra research and, and going down the long road of the, you know, the different cultures, the different language? What benefit? Have you seen with some of your clients coming out?
Leonie Mckeon:
Well, I'm in China is a massive market. You know, it is it really is a massive market. And when we say doing all the research and doing all this look seriously, to take people through the strategies. I mean, I generally do this, this is the timeframe. I generally do. For one hour, I would do four strategies. If I was taking somebody one to one. Yeah, I can do groups. Yeah. So it doesn't take me that long to get someone pretty SawStop. Okay. And once they understand this, then they can, they've got a really good base to understand other things. And if you're marketing a product, you would do the research anyway. Yeah, you know, I so I'm not saying that it's not difficult, but I think that the, you know, the benefits are definitely there. Yeah. You know, if you want to
Daniel Franco:
go is the market conducive to the Australian market, like especially now given the current state of affairs Have you found and what is your take on the current?
Leonie Mckeon:
Okay, okay, the market obviously, for wine and things like that, because the tariffs have gone up, but they're still they're still, you know, like, the export to China is still huge. And it's still, you know, a major trading plan and there are things that Australia has got, you know, that, that China is very interested in so if you've, you know, looking at what is what is the product of the terminus, I said, you know, things to do with mum and baby. No things to do with health, anything to do with aged care, those kinds of things, you know, hot products in China? Yeah.
Daniel Franco:
Am I right in saying that China isn't a capitalist country, like, and the Communist Party retains control over the direction of the country? Right? So they maintain, so they can maintain their costs in a socialist development? Is that does, how does that fit with your values? Right? So knowing that we here have the ability to grow, and the government really can't control other than, like, obviously, keep us within our legal means, control what we are doing with our business, but yet, China can does that fit well, with you and your values? Well,
Leonie Mckeon:
you know, I mean, China's a different culture. Yeah. And I think we have to understand that, you know, these differences, whether I agree or not, or, you know, I don't I think that's irrelevant, almost because, you know, it is a different culture China has, it has a completely different political structure. And, you know, has done for years, that hasn't changed, that hasn't changed. You know, and I think the, the difficulty with Australia is that we have never really dealt with a country that has a different language, a completely different culture, different negotiating strategies, and also a completely different political structure. We have learned about Europe, we have learned about the United States. I mean, you know, you ask someone, what are the what are the states of the United States? If you ask someone? What are the countries in Europe? If if you ask someone, what are the provinces in China, I bet they wouldn't be able to reel them off? It's because we have not had the education about China. And it's all of a sudden come on to us. Because, you know, we we understand the other world powers because that's been easier. Yeah. So
Daniel Franco:
easier because of the language. And because of that, well,
Leonie Mckeon:
that language, culture, the culture, you know, they're very aligned with our our political structure, you know, similar political structures. So in answer to your question about values, I think each country has different values. And you know, whether it right wrong or otherwise, you know, it's like it is it is a different culture. And we don't have to agree with what China does. And they don't have to agree with us. But I think it's important that we understand the Chinese thinking. Now, you may ask the question, but should China understand how we think now? I will answer that question by because I get asked this a lot. It was going to be a question going to your question. Okay. Think about it this way. How many students have studied business? Chinese students from China have studied business in Australia? 1000s. Okay. So they've studied degrees in in our network? How many people like myself, okay, have studied anthropology, psychology business, in through a Chinese business degree? I could probably name them on a hand. Yeah. I have studied Chinese. That's easy. And, you know, that's the people who speak who speak, you know, Western people who are Chinese in Australia, few and far between anyway. So I think the learning we assume that China doesn't understand us, they understand us pretty damn, well, they know, and they're able to do to us strategies.
Daniel Franco:
So is that is that is there an element of you think they're a step ahead of us?
Leonie Mckeon:
Well, if you don't understand how people think, of course, they're going to be a step ahead of us. You know, that's just, you know, that's just how it is.
Daniel Franco:
So the media really portraying the Chinese market, and obviously, the political environment be almost bullies at the moment. Do you agree with that stance?
Leonie Mckeon:
Well, you know, we have to see the media as the media, alright. And that's what the media do. They take something and they they do it. And people ask me this, who, you know, might be dealing with China. So look, if you're dealing with China, just keep your head straight. You know, don't get involved, don't get caught up in it. You know, there's no need to be caught up in the hysteria of what's going on. If it affects you. I understand some wine companies have, you know, that's been really hard for them. However, you know, it's a situation and look, China, we've been dealing with China for a very long time. It's got difficult over the last two years, and this was going to happen because we have never really, you know, really tried to understand China, you know, there's been a little bit of this and a little bit of that, but actually, you know, the deep dive into understanding China hasn't really happened. So, you know, they understand more about us than we do them. And we actually need them more than they need us believe it or not. So, you know, it's. And the other thing, too, is, we, China is in the media every day here, you know, I mean, it's on the front page of the newspaper. And but it's not that case in China. We aren't focused on the media every day. We think we do. Yeah, but we actually don't, we are a very small piece in the park. So whereas, you know, for us, it's every day every day, and we think that we are in their media all the time. No, we're and that's a little bit of the sort of, you know, we're important we're important wall,
Daniel Franco:
we're at the center of Aaron. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. What? Oh, looking in the mirror, right. Uh, we had to do with the Chinese look at us and say, the Australians, the Aussies. They're a bit tough.
Leonie Mckeon:
No, look, I from my from my experience. Chinese people have really liked dealing with Australians. I haven't heard Chinese people say all Australians are difficult, or anything like that. They like our you know, our friendliness. They like the clean green. You know, I haven't heard that from from Mike. So it's good snow. Australians.
Daniel Franco:
Always it's good to know, the other side of the, you know?
Leonie Mckeon:
Yeah. And I think
Daniel Franco:
there's no doubt there's going to be some businesses and politicians that are difficult to deal with. But But
Leonie Mckeon:
and I think, you know, the general feeling on the street in China, as I understand, but having said that, Daniel, I haven't been to China since COVID. So I haven't been able to talk on the street. But, you know, what I understand is the general feeling is that they still like Australian products, they still feel, you know, quite okay about Australia, you know, so it's, you know, but of course, there's areas that you know, you know, you've got, you've got the trade going on, and then you've got the political stuff. You know, it's sort of weird. We sit in net,
Daniel Franco:
yeah. Same. Ask a little bit of a tongue in cheek question. If you pick up you sitting at home, you pick it up the financial review, or you're on going online and looking on the financial review, and you're reading about Chinese either in the front of the page today in the paper? Do you sit there and you look at them? Do you look at what they're doing in the stories that are being written? And you go, is there pulling a strategy 12 move here? Do you ever do that? Yeah,
Leonie Mckeon:
absolutely. Yes, I do. Is it is it
Daniel Franco:
isn't alarming that the business world doesn't pick that up and doesn't say that? Yes. And what is your suggestion in the
Leonie Mckeon:
well, my suggestion is to, you know, learn, to learn, and to learn how to learn the strategies, because whether you're dealing with China, or you're dealing with whatever country, you know, or you're dealing with, just in Australia, they are very clever. And not to see them as war strategies and deceptive strategies, see them as clever see them as clever ways of thinking. So I would, you know, just merely the I suppose that that megaphone approach of you know, what's going on, you know, how the government have, you know, have used that approach is not really is not really taken up that well by China.
Daniel Franco:
Kind of a slightly different question. You said, you haven't been to China since COVID. Do you still keep in contact with him? Yeah. And,
Leonie Mckeon:
you know, obviously, I mean, I'm in contact with, like, I do, you know, webinars, things like that from AWS CEMB. In Shanghai, there's, there's different things that happen. If there's anything that you know that, you know, that is happening online, I joined that, of course, so yeah,
Daniel Franco:
we were you aware of the outbreak early in 2020 or late 2019. We you were your counterparts in China, that people that you speak to and connect with over there? Were they sort of warning you of what was coming?
Leonie Mckeon:
Oh, look, I think, look, I don't think anyone really knew how big this was. And yes, like everyone, I heard that there was something happening in China. But I, you know, I don't think that anybody could predict what actually did happen. And I don't think we can predict where we'll be this time next year. I think this is a day by day thing. Yeah, but we have to, when we do this day by day, sort of, you know, put one foot in front of the other. We need to sort of work out how we're dealing with trade and how we're dealing with other people. on who we are, you know, I mean, the investigation of COVID-19. You know, for China now, it wasn't the investigation. That last phase, it was how it was said, Okay. All right. So it wasn't what it was how Yeah, this is the issue. How do you? How do you is that the face talk of a year? How do you talk about something? And this is this is, you know, if we knew if we knew about how to do this, I think it would have been quite different.
Daniel Franco:
Is there a reason, in your opinion, and this code put, you know, I don't want this to be a controversial question. But is there a reason why it was kept hush hush. Is that because of the way they manage their strategies and the way they the way the culture is? Or
Leonie Mckeon:
I don't know how long it was kept hush hush for and I really, I don't think anyone really knows that. You know, I, I don't know whether it was whether it was something that that was kept hush hush for that long. I, you know, I think that's sort of, you know, throwing a ball up there and not really knowing. Yeah, you know, I'm not someone who, and I don't think anyone could answer that. Yeah.
Daniel Franco:
It seems like there's just been with information withheld. But again, I'm only getting my source. Yeah.
Leonie Mckeon:
And we see this and we know, you know, but how do we know? How do we know this? And it's all very well, and good to point the finger. And I think there's a lot of points of finger pointing finger going on. But there's not a lot of talking. Yeah. So it's almost like, okay, look, you know, okay, you've done this. We've done this. It's almost like let's talk. Let's get on with it. Let's get on with it.
Daniel Franco:
I mean, yeah, for me, that is the most important thing. Let's get on with it. Let's figure out how it happens or didn't happen again. Right. That's the that's the main thing. Yeah. So yeah, this this can't happen moving forward, that pandemic shuts down the world, we need to get on top of it straightaway. And that's communication strategies early on, isn't
Leonie Mckeon:
That's right. That's communication. You know, I mean, it is better to be friends with China. And to be not with not be free. Yeah, China. Yeah, truly, it really is.
Daniel Franco:
Do you? Do you feel that the the relationship has been tarnished, and kind of get back to where it was?
Leonie Mckeon:
It definitely has, has, you know, gone downhill since in the last couple of years. And I'm not I'm an optimistic person. And I do believe that it can get back. I don't know, to where it was, because, you know, quite often things don't get back to the same, they are different. Yeah. However, I think that there are things that we could do. That could be, you know, bring the relationship back on track.
Daniel Franco:
Has Australia and the businesses in Australia realized that the reliance on China was too great. And now they're looking elsewhere? Well,
Leonie Mckeon:
look, that has been, you know, that has been talked about, about, you know, diversification. There's nothing wrong with diversification. The issue we've got now is that the diversification that we've got is with a lot of countries, whereas China was the one big customer, it's almost like you've got one big customer. And now you've got an all these little, lots of little customers. Yeah. There's nothing wrong with diversification. But I would like to say, not a China or strategy, but a China and strategy. Yes. Fair, you know, so don't, you know, don't just do away with China. Yeah, no, no, you know, because there's a lot of work and a lot of effort put into these new relationships. And also, when we're dealing with countries, you know, like, say, the US and Europe for export, we've got to think that the freight is higher, you know, there's a whole range of yes, there.
Daniel Franco:
Yeah. Do these strategies work across all the Asian countries such as Japan? And,
Leonie Mckeon:
look, I have been told that, you know, people in those countries know them. However, Daniel, I would like to say that I am a I'm a Chinese expert. And that's where my skills are. Yeah. So definitely, in all the, you know, the Chinese speaking countries, and any Chinese person that you see here, but as far as Korea, Japan, Thailand and those places, I'm probably not the best person to ask, because my ex, I'm very much a specialist. Yeah. However, I have heard they they are but I would not like to say that 100 Yeah, no
Daniel Franco:
doubt. So there would be some similarities in their cultures. Possibly. Yeah. Excellent. We are past the hour mark. So thank you, we got there, which is great. We kind of sort of round up the podcast with a few quickfire questions at the end. And it's and it's got nothing to do really with what other than maybe the first question hasn't really got anything at related to what we've been talking about. They're a little bit off the side questions just to understand your way of thinking and where big raises Here at Synergy IQ. What are you reading right now?
Leonie Mckeon:
What am I reading?
Daniel Franco:
Or studying or learning right now?
Leonie Mckeon:
Okay. Now, as you know, I've written six books. Yeah. All right. And I'm probably someone who likes to go into a novel or something else. I'm very interested in popular culture. I am reading all 100 interviews conversations that people had with David Bowie. Oh, really? There you go. Cuz I'm very interested in, in, as I said, Pop Culture.
Daniel Franco:
He's an interesting character,
Leonie Mckeon:
interesting characters. So all of the different, different conversations, that there's a book about, you know, all the conversations that people had with David Bowie. And there might be just a paragraph someone's had that someone said that and, you know, what they what they thought of? So that's what I'm reading.
Daniel Franco:
Yeah. Great. Love it. In regards to strategy other than sanzu, his book and like the 36 strategies and and your books, what, what is one book that you can recommend in this world that our listeners can pick up and read? That will add value, right? So we want them to, we want to promote your books first, and some zoos. But what else in that realm? Because I've read all of them.
Leonie Mckeon:
Okay, do you want sort of like
Daniel Franco:
a strategic book, something in strategy or something in understanding how to grow a business worldwide, or whatever it might be anything that you can recommend that you feel that even some of your clients might might use and get better for?
Leonie Mckeon:
I think, you know, you can even go back to some of those. Some of those books that were written many years ago, like things like the E Myth, and all those kinds of books, yeah. Look, I probably couldn't recommend one book. I think that book is very good. The E Myth. But what I would like to say is that even there's so many new things coming out that quite often they're, they're really a rehash of the other stuff. Yeah. So if you've got that on your shelf, you know, quite often, it's a good idea to reread those things that you have on your shelf.
Daniel Franco:
Sorry, they go back to the foundational books,
Leonie Mckeon:
foundation of books. Yeah, that's, that's probably one of the books that I think is. Yeah, I, you know, I'm trying to I haven't read a huge amount of business books in the last few years purely because I've been writing my own Yeah.
Daniel Franco:
Okay. Yeah. So let's pick up your box set, then.
Leonie Mckeon:
Yeah, pick up my boxes. Yeah. The guy. Brilliant.
Daniel Franco:
Do do listen to any other podcasts other than this one, of course, do you? Is there anything else that you consume from a learning point of view?
Leonie Mckeon:
Um, some of the look,
Daniel Franco:
because you've been on a few podcasts? Yeah.
Leonie Mckeon:
Yeah. I mean, do you mean some of the podcasts that I listened to myself? Yeah. What do you listen to? Yeah. All right. Obviously, only. What is the only listen to often? I might hear something on on Radio National. Yeah. All right. And it might be oh, I'll catch it in the morning. And then I'll listen to it as a podcast, you know, during the dial on Yeah. That's kind of what I do as far as podcasts go. And because I find that, you know, I get the latest and they might be 10 minutes. They could be. Yeah.
Daniel Franco:
You just get sorts of information from this.
Leonie Mckeon:
I did hear it. Yes. I heard a quite a good one. Probably about a couple of weeks ago, Latrobe University ran and it was it was Kevin Rudd and Malcolm Turnbull talking about China. And I thought that was a very I really like that when it's Latrobe University. And they they had a webinar that they put it into a house. Yeah, so that was I thought something like that was you know, sometimes I come across things.
Daniel Franco:
Yeah, absolutely. You can invite three people to dinner. Who would you invite? Joni Mitchell? Jodi Mitchell.
Leonie Mckeon:
Singer.
Daniel Franco:
Oh, yeah. Why? Why Joni Mitchell? Just
Leonie Mckeon:
off because I just think she's she's an amazing you know, a fantastic singer and songwriter. Renew every cool David Bowie. He's dead though.
Daniel Franco:
Yeah, no. Okay. Let's rephrase it dead or alive. Who could
Leonie Mckeon:
be dead or alive? Yeah, that would be great. Okay, three people to dinner. So, so
Daniel Franco:
include that people who are people you look up to is really the question the basis of the question like, who are people that you're interested in or wouldn't mind having you One we're all sitting around a dinner table. Having a conversation I would really
Leonie Mckeon:
like to meet Kevin Rudd Yeah. Okay, so I think David Bowie, Joni Mitchell and Kevin Rudd,
Daniel Franco:
there's a there's a good mix. Strange old mix a lover. If you have access to a time machine, this is really odd question. If you had access to a time machine, and you could go, you could travel back or you could travel to the future. You know, one sort of return return trip only where would you go?
Leonie Mckeon:
So I don't have to go back. You could go back and forward.
Daniel Franco:
Where would you go? Anytime?
Leonie Mckeon:
Probably, guys. Let me see. 2030 2030
Daniel Franco:
Okay, tell us why. What's What's that specific? Because
Leonie Mckeon:
we are in so much change. Yeah, you know, with the world, you know, politically, um, health wise. And I would like to see by 2030 where we're at, yeah, that'd be cool. You know, like,
Daniel Franco:
it's real short term. But
Leonie Mckeon:
yeah, it is short term. But, you know, think about it this way. Daniel, like, what's happened over the last two years? It's been really fast. So I think yeah, 2030 I'm someone who does kind of look more into the future. So I don't really want to go back. Oh, great, a lot befitting of the future. You know, you know, however, I think sometimes Gee, I traveled the world like that, Will that ever happen again? Because I was really lucky to be able to do that. Yeah.
Daniel Franco:
Yeah, I couldn't see the world being in lockdown for much more than another 12 months surely. Surely. Famous. Last words. Say what happens yeah, let's go to 2013 Excellent. Yet last question. If you if you had one superhero power, what would you choose? If you could choose one superhero power?
Leonie Mckeon:
What would you choose? What a person or
Daniel Franco:
a superhero power if you could have a power you know, visibility fly, whatever. What would you fly fly?
Leonie Mckeon:
He I think yeah, fly? Because, you know, I love birds. And I look at birds and I think hmm, every good if I could, if I if you know if it is true, you know that you that you that you that you come back into another life? That's really I think it'd be amazing to be abundant fly.
Daniel Franco:
The freedom. Yeah, yeah, that'd be great. Beautiful. Thank you so much for your time today Leone, it's been wonderful having and picking your brain on the strategies on I've definitely learned a few little pearls of wisdom in there so much appreciated. Where can we find you? And first of all your books they can be found on Amazon and yeah, Amazon booktopia and all the above? Yeah,
Leonie Mckeon:
all of the all of the any of your favorite online stores. booktopia. You know, iTunes, you can you know, Google Play All the ebooks if you want those in the hardcopy soft copy all on Amazon. My website is LeonieMcKeon.com. Yeah. And if you want to contact me, please do you want to chat? Happy to do so.
Daniel Franco:
Excellent. So for those who are interested in taking their business to China, and even learning about this 30 strategies or looking for a Keynote or anything, get in touch with with Leonie. Absolutely. Thank you very much for your time again.
Leonie Mckeon:
Thanks very much. I know see you guys.
Synergy IQ:
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