Synergy IQ: 0:00

Welcome to creating synergy where we explore what it takes to transform. Whether you are transforming yourself, your team, your business, or your community will connect you with insightful and challenging leaders who share their stories of successful transformations. To give you practical ideas for your own journey. Join us for another insightful episode of creating synergy.

Daniel Franco: 0:27

Welcome to the creating synergy podcast today we have a beautiful man in in Dan Levy, so again, Dan is the principal for a company called more space for light more spaceflight is an innovation and strategy consultancy. Their design led approach to solving business problems helps leaders and teams overcome constraints related to strategy, product, service or process, then is also very active in the tertiary industry, educating people in and lecturing. And also speaking nationally on sub subjects of human centered design, design thinking and strategy. You make that sound like there's no audience, you know, like me standing there just talking about it and nobody listening. That's generally how to start me off and just point me at some students that really got you on the show because of the lack of followers that you have, I guess. Now only theory, so well appreciate Oh, come to the podcast there.

Dan Levy: 1:30

Thank you for having me down.

Daniel Franco: 1:31

Not a problem, mate. So I know you would get asked this question. Every single day, more space for light. What? And where did that come from?

Dan Levy: 1:41

I thought you were gonna ask me about the fact I'm wearing office slippers. I'm kind of relieved. Some more space for light came from my little boy. I was going for a period where I wanted to make the leap to do my own thing and go out there. And like any sensible potential business owner, I knew that the success of any business rested on the fact I had a logo and a good name. It didn't matter about our business is true? Because it was a superficial level. But a well the name isn't superficial. So one night, I was working. I've always worked and really dedicated part of it. I always consider myself very dedicated to the work I do because I love it. And the consequences of which means that I'm not always about how you know this, your dad spent a lot of time dedicated to your craft correct things some time slip some sacrifices. Yeah, nowadays, things are a lot more liquid with COVID because there isn't those boundaries. However, one night I was back, putting a lit one to bed. So it's always special. It was a really rare treat. Molly little one being the eldest. And he said to Mum, he said, Mom, I want more space for light. And I said, What? What does that mean? And my wife explained to me It meant basically he wanted more time to play. He wanted more time to read. He wanted more time to do all the things he loves. He didn't like the darkness because the darkness meant it was the end of the day had to go to sleep. He still had more energy and more fun life. And that totally resonated with me. That whole mantra the simplicity of it. After I finished crying

Daniel Franco: 3:35

seriously, yeah, no, it's an emotional guy. It's pretty powerful. Whoa,

Dan Levy: 3:40

how'd you suck at the time he would have been three well, and you know, like kids say,

Daniel Franco: 3:46

doesn't even work that way.

Dan Levy: 3:48

I wish I could communicate as simply and as effectively as as a as a little one because there's no BSS, no buzzword Bingo. He said it, he captured the the sincerity, the intent of what I wanted to do both personally and professionally. And I went off and check the domain name and did all those things that you do and sign it up. And from then on. I didn't have a business. I had a mission and a mantra, and by saying a mission, it connected with me in regards to what I wanted to achieve and accomplish both professionally and personally. And I had a mantra as a North Star that always guided me and has continued to when I had a decision to make whether I sacrifice family for work. Family First

Daniel Franco: 4:46

family first. It's in the business day. It's in my blood. It's in your blood. So what is your mission?

Dan Levy: 4:54

What is my mission is to cut through all of that bs that that is That inaction and putting things off we have a bias for action. And that permeate permeates, permeates, percolates one, whichever you want into the night, free to everything we do in regards to the strategy in regards to the methodology that we use in regards to design, thinking, design thinking is all about doing when we apply that to strategy, all the way through to design. So the mission is to cut through, to cut through the action, get momentum, to help clarity help people prioritize, and help them as well. The light is possibilities and opportunities. Often, many organizations we've found, look to deal with problems of today. And yesterday, I have a big passion for new opera for creative tech, for connecting with deaf people in new and interesting ways using creative technology. And I believe that a lot of organizations almost have that apathy in regards to that, you know, they already have that business is working, where they don't look at potential ditch disruptors in the market, whether known or adjacent. And what we do is we provide almost like a door, that this is an opportunity for you, based on what you're trying to achieve. And we can put it together, we're not past so much about the solution, we're focused on the problem, because often people also very much tangled in terms of what it is they need to do. So we try and simplify that. And then work through a bias of action. We help them with like rapid prototyping and testing, and things like that. Yeah. So they can validate very quickly, because once you know what one of the most poisonous phrases in a meeting is. Okay, I'm asking, you

Daniel Franco: 7:04

know, well, you know, I don't,

Dan Levy: 7:07

I think I think the person with the loudest voice in the room says, I think we can do this. I think this is what happens. I'd prefer I know, and I prefer to be able to have some form of evidence to say, Look, how do we de risk this? And this is what happened, this is the response, this is a problem of solving. Is it generally the leader in that team? That would say, I think it was, does everyone then conform to what their leader thinks, we start always the leader, sometimes, some times we've found, unfortunately, you can get, especially with more technical or development, that have that knowledge base inside the head. So they're very much process driven. So regard in regards to where we sit and really, the desirability if you think of the level Venn diagram, as a consultant, you have the desirability, you have your feasibility, you have your viability, often people come at a problem from a different angle. So they're quick to shut it down. We're not fast at that point about those kinds of constraints. They're important. But right from the get go, we want to validate that it's actually a problem worth solving. It's actually scratching an itch, it's fulfilling a need. And that that that ensures, as an organization, we have something to fall back on and say, Look, this is why we're doing it. Beyond the numbers and the finances, or this is not why we're doing it, not because Bob can't be bothered to download the latest patch and join two API and get an API working to join two things together. It's because our clients over in some rural area, I just can't get that. Therefore, we need to think of another way to solve that problem.

Daniel Franco: 8:59

So people will connect with you and require your services to cut through the Bs, is that where we're at? Why would I as a corporate small business, whatever it might be, come to more space for light? And what benefit would I get?

Dan Levy: 9:20

Why? I'd ask you the same question why I have tried very hard. And this is me being vulnerable here in to abstract our value proposition. So we don't talk about products, because everything's a product or a service. Because that's from my perspective. I always try and think about the outcomes and the experience. And, and the outcomes that we found with clients that we've worked with is a map is a plan is an understanding of what we need to do. Also a trusted partner to guide them through that the client We work with our people that we we are friends, I know you shouldn't consider your partners, your work partners, friends. But because business is personal, especially when you run it, you want to get on with the people that you're creating relationships. And I think by demonstrating that vulnerability as well, which is something that we encourage, especially amongst teams, you get to better outcomes. So if you are having a problem in regards to say, a business problem, and you are trying to get alignment with your team with stakeholders in regards to our priority, or to make something actionable, we'd be happy to help connect you, if you were trying to get some sort of customer insights, to understand some sort of sentiment in the market. So typically, you might go to a consumer group, consumer company, and you'll say to a consumer company, for example, we have a product out in the market, we want to make a shift to a new product space. So it might be some sort of dietary requirement, if you're a fast moving consumer goods company, you'll go to your go to research company, etc. You get an answer in three months, in the document full of graphs, we can do that not a week. Yeah. Okay. And not only that, we can we can build a prototype, we can bring in customers in a way. Now, that's not to say it's going to be concrete. However, through our process, you've got an answer where you're like, Okay, we need to take this to the next level. And if you think about that, as opposed to waiting three months, for an answer, or two months, for a big document, you're ready to go, you're ready to rock, you're ready to start talking to operations, about changing the machinery, how we how we're going to put the new battery in, etc. And that's something we can help. And I think that's a really powerful proposition, especially when you consider COVID now, and the speed of technology as well, which you know, which is, which is accelerating accelerate, decisions are having to be made a lot quicker, new products and services and opportunities are hitting the market at such a rapid rate these days, that you need to make decisions quicker. Well, that's,

Daniel Franco: 12:21

that's exciting, because that's what your mission is, is to create that clarity. Yep. To cut through the Bs, I guess and provide a simpler, more clearer approach for these businesses.

Dan Levy: 12:35

Yeah. And speed as well as speed. Yeah, yeah.

Daniel Franco: 12:39

When you first of all, how did you get into this world? What's your background?

Dan Levy: 12:47

I'm thinking do I give you a real answer? Okay, so I come I come from a design background. Okay. Traditional fine art. Yeah, way way way way way back when going through university I wanted to do film a lot of people that day facilitation I find these days wanted to get into film I used to make like music videos. ads. I ran a record company London furniture yeah with some friends I own yeah Getting Started but I ended up like as I said, I'm very dedicated Yeah, it was a bunch of mates one went off to Japan live with another guy me and him basically took it over I was in London so I was like the go to person and I ended up running it with him it was a fabulous experience. However my angle for it was just because I was fed up again to festivals and sleeping with everybody else you know in the UN I always used to see these people sail past with their VIP passes. Go straight. I thought to myself, I want a piece of this and my pals were starting something and I knew I think they know this anyway after why I could get involved here. Yeah, and maybe level up my festival experience. Yeah, what I didn't know Daniel, there's always another v on a VIP. Yeah, so even when you get to the VIP there's a V V and then there's the V V V VIP. However it was still better than sleep. Because I've got I remember guys staying at reading I sit down again so I remember going to Reading Festival must be 2000 I don't remember coming out at night just to have a gun Have a look at everyone see what's going on. Never people are carrying tents on fire running about and this is such a good decision when it back to the VIP area where there was a knife toilet, and like nicer food and things like that. So that was a complete tangent and I was come from fine art design. Digital designer did digital design at university like lingo. Macromedia and things like that. I always knew where my strengths were my strengths were in design creation planning. So with development, I was very persuasive with people that were more into development than me to help me on certain issues. Well, it's all about getting things done.

Daniel Franco: 15:18

Yeah, this is utilizing other people's strengths. The business

Dan Levy: 15:23

is what the entrepreneur was always, absolutely. And what I found was, as I continue going through my career, and getting into the mall, that digital design and the design and the creation of products and services were that I call them civilians. And I don't mean that in a negative sense. But people that weren't in that world that were the recipients of these products and services, they never bloody clue what was going on to give. So for instance, my mum, I'd be like, Mom, this is something we created. And she's like, Oh, that's nice. I don't understand I can't click it, the text is too small text is gray on a gray background. And all this, you know, designs can live in a vacuum. Yes. And I started to move into more of the user experience space, because that was more interesting for me, than the creation space. And that made me start considering the user and empathizing with them and starting to feel and learn more about what they're trying to achieve, what is the job they're trying to do. And slowly, I started to move more into the user experience, I still had that creative sensibility. But I was able to kind of balance both of them from UX. The natural step or progression in my career was to move more into strategy. Whilst I was working at Fox Sports. They went for a massive rebrand. And it was about the time that social media really started to have an impact on the broadcast industry broadcasting industry, they were very much used to telling people what to do. And all of a sudden, there was this channel, where they could get feedback, instant feedback. So it was, it was quite, it's quite confronting for a lot of people. And what I'm from my love of soccer, I got allocate the soccer project, with the soccer part of Debbie rebrand art, it's great for me, you know, in down to take love it. That's really sad. And what I found was I was having to explain, I find a lot of things I sound that I'm hiding, seeking for this interview, that I had to explain very complicated things in a very simple manner, and bring a lot of different stakeholders that had a different level of digital maturity and branding maturity along on that journey. Yeah, again, I'm starting to thrive in that environment. And that was getting away from the computer. So I sat in that digital strategy strategy role for a while. And I thought that was what more space would be. I thought it would be UX consultancy users happily knows what that means I'm back to start with your products and not thinking about the outcomes. And as I've gone on my journey, through more space and running more space, we've become over the last few years, we've evolved, just into selling strategy selling consulting, strategy, designing workshop programs, design sprints, we picked up the design sprint program three years ago. And design sprints are a program that came out Google, which take all the elements of design thinking and basically condense them into like, a week. So clarity, you can get outcome in a week well,

Daniel Franco: 18:49

so I want to unpack the design thinking and design sprints. Okay? In layman's terms, for all your and your, you want to cut through the Bs, right? Find a book, what is the fundamental reason why someone or a business would say I want to design my thinking,

Dan Levy: 19:12

apart from the intentionality of having to design your thinking, so you're a lot more considered. The great thing about the methodology of design thinking is it relies on three principles, ideation. So that's all about possibilities and creating the future. Experimentation, moving on, why very much from a culture of scared to fail, and giving people permission to play and permission to go out and learn and empathy? Yeah, empathy, whether it's internal stakeholders, or external customers these days and by empathy mean understanding from their perspective. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And often, you'll find that organizations have the IDI the ideations, call me Let's all get in a room, let's do some brainstorming. Yeah, and it's wicked. And they might do a little bit of experimentation. But sometimes it's superficial.

Daniel Franco: 20:12

And there's probably things that are holding him back from being able to experiment processes systems.

Dan Levy: 20:17

Yeah, no culture, we work in a way where we almost work in between the lines. And that's what I love about our proposition. We don't sit in the muck of the silo, I don't care about that. We care about bringing the right people in that building a tiger team across the business to solve big and complex problems. So it doesn't have to be industry specific. I'm so confident in their process and the programs that we construct based on the intent and the outcomes of an organization that we getting results over and over and the types of results before you ask that we're getting. We're getting prototypes in front of business leaders so they can understand the vision. And they can get feedback from stakeholders, we connecting organizations with their customers, without the need to go to other agencies and things like that, just by going through their CRM and helping them design a program. For example, we work with a not for profit. And we constructed a design sprint specific for their needs, that incorporated elements of theatrical design, because what they delivered was a program that was like a play. So we redesigned it and constructed it from that, as an outcome of that within the space of a week, they had a brand new production, for key scenes to test and a testing program that we prove this process worked as well, to prove the process. And they were able to scale it and take it out to different states across Australia, and test it and now they're in a position where they're slow. They're building the rest of the script.

Daniel Franco: 22:08

Yeah, based on that at all. So I guess that's the sprint element of the design. It's taking that thinking and building a product in a week.

Dan Levy: 22:16

Yep. Now again, back to design thinking and linking to design sprints, the framework of design thinking and design sprints are very similar. You start by understanding the problem, getting everyone on the same page and prioritize you then basically define that problem, you then create something Ida, you build something and you test it. That's the design sprint, that framework in itself has become like a map for us. Because not just from a design sprint level, we're able to see where an organization is on that journey. So we can stop planning, and providing a response to their need based on where they're at. and refer back to it and help them Yep, how we start, we use things like the strategy cascade for that was made, that was made famous by PNG, art, and and all that sort. And all ties in even the approach to designing and co creating strategy. We use the tools of design thinking it's like our language.

Daniel Franco: 23:24

Can you provide an example? Is there a common problem that you see? happen again, and again, and again, this is

Dan Levy: 23:36

one that I've seen, there's no such thing as waters offered out. But usually it's it's always comes down to a form of communication. And I don't mean that in a literal dialogue, I mean, that in connecting with customers, understanding their needs, so for

Daniel Franco: 23:54

stakeholders, talk about user experience, you're talking now about customer experience understanding why,

Dan Levy: 23:59

yeah, I think they're the same thing. Everyone, is your customer have some perspective. Yeah. So I always get muddled up when I'm writing there's a customer, is it user? Is it member? Is it? Yeah, whatever it is, it's it's, it's always along that there's a miscommunication. So how do we communicate with

Daniel Franco: 24:17

and is the miscommunication come from a point of not asking the right questions,

Dan Levy: 24:21

not even asking that I sometimes see during them as a question person to ask the question to you. community will consider how like, say, we've worked in government, and

Daniel Franco: 24:34

you just laugh? Yeah. I, I there's nothing wrong. I can Yes.

Dan Levy: 24:40

I can. Oh, well. I got it. I can I know. I've got to be careful what I say because it's your podcast. But their their provision process is doesn't so smaller business. No, it's it's not my bit more slow moving, not just slow moving. It's not controlled. I mean, I could go into that, but that's a completely different topic. And I get a generally we don't we don't. We don't. We don't really get we don't play in that world no. And I don't play in that world as well. Coming back to our value system, we don't get an outcome and outcome like we are. So we vary. Our business model isn't about bums on seats, it's about providing value. Yeah, as I say, it's like a pirates. We come in, we sail in we cause chaos in a good way. We pillage in a good way. Isn't is not usually?

Daniel Franco: 25:34

Yeah, no, yeah, we won't go into that.

Dan Levy: 25:36

Or you could say the fun uncle, which again, as we come in, like, I want the value exchange to be really high when we come in experience to be amazing. So

Daniel Franco: 25:50

do not put caveats in place. So I guess from our perspective, talking Synergy IQ, the business that I work with, is that when we work with a client, you know, we don't accept any work with any business as well, we have these rules of thumb is that if you can provide access to leaders, you know, seven rules, the seven rules that we we basically put in place of the client on every single job and say, unless you can meet these, because this is what we need to get to an outcome. Even if you put those those conditions forward. And they say yes, yes, yes. You still won't work with a government or buddy. Oh, well,

Dan Levy: 26:30

let me ask the first part. So we don't have rules. Okay. We just agree to outcomes. Okay. And we agree that that

Daniel Franco: 26:38

Well, yeah, I guess, fuzzy yet. There's never a specific path. They have to be comfortable in the fuzziness. I guess you have to be comfortable in the mark. I've

Dan Levy: 26:48

I've run workshops where you look up, and they look last year, and I feel lost as well. However, I'm confident we'll get to an hour. I just need a minute to think I know

Daniel Franco: 27:00

what's in the grays.

Dan Levy: 27:02

I don't even have a comfort zone. Yeah, that's frightening. Yeah, I cycled to a client the other day by the airport. And it was, I felt like I was on some sort of computer game. I don't know how I made it there. And I've never done that before, like every day is a new challenge. Yeah.

Daniel Franco: 27:19

Do you believe that? By adopting the design thinking mentality and then working through these as on Sprint's on these problems and issues that they've got businesses of God? Once they cut through that? Could you categorically say that productivity profits or these performance, all these areas of that business are increased? Hi, I

Dan Levy: 27:43

can't say yes to everything, because it's so much so complex, isn't it?

Daniel Franco: 27:48

But would you say Generally, if done correctly, and adopted correctly,

Dan Levy: 27:51

I would say, at minimum, at the result of working with us, you'll get your team and you'll get people across the organization talking and understanding that they're working in similar fashion, or that they've got problems that they've shared, or they'll unlock opportunities that they didn't even realize existed? I can 100% every CEO yet the you get the juices flowing and the guests in from a thought perspective. Yeah. Can we have a catalyst for action?

Daniel Franco: 28:20

Yeah. And you get people to think about things differently. 100% and cut down their perspective.

Dan Levy: 28:25

Yeah, we also give people different people a voice. So you can microwave go, I don't actually have an RTD. Two unit

Daniel Franco: 28:35

is the micro that's the next thing. You have big plans one day.

Dan Levy: 28:41

So where we stop, I think it's really important to explain where we stop. We're not in the solution game. And by saying that is like we I'm not interested in in building websites and building apps. That's not our world, that I now I'm going to turn a few people out by saying this. But that's the easy part, building part because you've got everything and you're committed and you go. It's a complicated problem, because you're just putting it together because it's highly you need technical people to nearly Yeah, and there's, there's a lot of fantastic design agencies and digital agencies, both here and nationally. And I don't want to compete in that world. The problem I've always found being in that world, is that when things come down strain, they're not right. And I've always wanted to fix to make sure the brief is right. And the brief connects up to the business strategy, which means where we sit intentionally is in the problem space. And that is the problem speed, problem seeking and problem definition. And I think there's a lot of value there. Where we stop is once a client's like, okay, we're ready to build a website. Now we can bring in people, we can help ensure that that Strategy goes through from end to finish. But it's never been to a point where we can stop measuring. But we're not going to

Daniel Franco: 30:09

see your front end, before anything happens, speak with you or even not speak with you, but just go down, you're encouraging people to go down the design thinking,

Dan Levy: 30:16

we start, that's where you start, before everything, you start by ensuring, before we commit to action, this is a problem worth solving. This is correct. This is the vision for our business. And this is something everybody understands and can communicate.

Daniel Franco: 30:34

So how do you prioritize which problem is more important than the other? We don't they do

Dan Levy: 30:39

they do. It's not up to us. We're a guide, we provide that framework.

Daniel Franco: 30:44

So we come to we start the process of design thinking once we actually know what the problem is, we start the process of design thinking by defining the problem defining the problem. Brilliant, isn't it, it's so clear when you put it in, when you create clarity, I guess you create more space, more space is very nice. I saw you did that I did that. Excellent. It took me a while to get there. But I got there.

Dan Levy: 31:09

it's brilliant. It was cool. I sometimes say to clients, where you just need a little bit more space for light. Or they'll say that. So I've got, I got some meetings this afternoon. And on the back of our business cards, I've got more space for light. And that's not really an advert, well actually is more space for dot, dot dot, because it's all about what they've got more space for. If we can get people to where they need to be quicker, they'll have more space. For other things. I had one client the right, more space, and they stuck it on the back of a motorbike for dirt. Yeah. And I'm like, that's cool. So I've provided that brain space that they could have more space for their personal play and or their on their bike, and they can think about going off road instead of this problem. That's a great outcome.

Daniel Franco: 32:01

I love it. Because it's even just from my thinking, from what we do, we could use that same for promoting with our clients as well as we're creating, by helping you with your culture. were improving the we're taking your culture, from a good culture to a great culture. We're giving more space to work and understand your people.

Dan Levy: 32:24

It was never intentional. For the people part of what we do. Just like the way we've come into the design thinking space has never been in. Like that's where we want to go. Yeah, we stumbled in we came very much

Daniel Franco: 32:38

from bottom up we've evolved into

Dan Levy: 32:40

Yeah, like we didn't, we didn't have like, going through an ideal course, or a Luma course and come out of there go. We've got this great tool set. Yeah, how can we go and paint something, we were like stumbling about putting things together to help clients that I was designing strategy cards, to take into workshops to help people do this activity called alternate worlds, where they think of another company that could be a competitor or somewhere else in the space and start thinking about how they'd frame the problem from their perspective. I didn't realize that's a dumb thing. I spoke to people in that space a lot. Oh, yeah, you could go and buy cards from now. But I saw I switched from a prior How would I solve this particular problem? How would I be able to get people to think outside their box? Yeah. So we design that. And then all of a sudden, it was like, Oh, my gosh, this is a thing. Yeah. And now we we can mature our model by seeing what we do and applying it to other things. Because we understand not just the wall. But the why, like, why is this important? And why does it because I always link what we did to product service strategy process. never really thought the business part because I was also always focused on what is the outcome? What is the business outcome, and what it was revealed to me through running programs, especially design sprints, the end of the design, Sprint, it's like a really emotional goodbye. You know, like when you see people yeah, no one wants you to leave. You've been there for a week. Yeah, slamming through issues and helping people on this journey. And you become embedded in the furniture,

Daniel Franco: 34:21

hang it out.

Dan Levy: 34:21

Yeah, hug it out. And then you what I didn't realize was at the end of it, how close you become with people and how connected and how connected they become. And that was a great,

Daniel Franco: 34:33

pretty gratifying, some of the leader of a business is a hypothetical question. What are your big corporate business? Right? What do I need to do what? Given the current world environment that we're in, and the vast amount of problems that are occurring, the business where do we begin with the problems? Yeah, I guess. So for me the product prioritizing these problems Probably number one place to start. Number two is then having the space and creating the space to then design a fixed or solution to these problems. My question comes from what is some low hanging fruit, that you can encourage leaders in the current environment now to start thinking about, like, if you were put yourself in this situation of you're leading these big corporate companies, and you see the multiple, and the multitude of problems that these guys are having, where's a good place to start thinking about?

Dan Levy: 35:36

I'm thinking cuz I'm very mindful that whatever answer I give, won't always be applicable to different, correct. And if you could give an average, I'll put it from my perspective, it's in the context of the current pandemic weigh in, there's a real big balance I find for organizations in terms of what we do now. And what we do then. And then now is shifting all the time, day to day. I mean, look what's happening just unfortunately, in Melbourne, at the moment, you know, you've got loads of businesses have started to creep back into business. As usual, I put that in quotes, and then all of a sudden, it's gone back out. Again, we're in a time of maximum complexity, continual transition and change. So for a business leader, the first thing they're thinking about is what does this business look like? So you have to really start to think about scenario planning in regards to where you want to get to. And one of the most powerful questions I think a business leader needs to ask is what needs to be true, they need to put their foot in the sand or stick in the sand and say this in this timeline, so they have to commit to a time regardless of all the turmoil, and say, this is where we want to drive towards. And I have to think about what that outcome looks like, and what needs to be true for that. And that's a starting point for them. Because at the moment, even I was listening to Don price talk on another, another podcast, I think it's called how we work. And he said something that was really interesting Don prices, a chap from Atlassian, he said, the speed of decisions is so important. And that's not just in regards to just make a decision and forget about it. But that agility of being able to quickly make decisions means you can quickly pivot and course correct. However, I don't think you should be doing that, by looking forward, I think you should be reverse engineering. At the very least, I still think for the most part, most organizations should have a vision of where they're trying to get towards. I know for us, we have one, and then they should be able to bring it back to a month or three months, and be able to say, even a month, but I always say a quarter because it gives you time to get things in action, because things take time specially now be able to reverse engineer back of what needs to be true. And start breaking that down by people process platforms and will appease and then start defining what that future can look like. And then commit and test.

Daniel Franco: 38:35

So I'm hearing purpose, mission. And you think about goal setting in its sort of own right? When you set a goal for yourself, let's say losing weight, I want to lose 10 kilos, what do I need to do to lose 10 kilos, I need to go for a run once a once a week, I need to go to the gym three times a week, I need to start eating more fruits and vegetables. I need to concentrate on sleeping more. So you you're creating, you're breaking down

Dan Levy: 39:08

making it into manageable manageable items. So you've just said like one of our one of our things. One of our key lines is we break the complexity into manageable chunks. Make it simple. Yeah, as soon as you have a goal and you commit, you just have to reverse engineer what that's what is what needs to be treated that experience to code to exist. However, the complexity isn't the product or the service is the people because right now people have all over. motivate and change the mindset from people that kind of stuck, you know, on the computer, we've got the kids I know we've I've got kids, wonderful little creatures they are and I've loved being at home with them. I've connected with them. That's one of the great outcomes. For me, and the business, the fact that I've connected more with my family, nice to feel my heart grow bigger. Yes. You have to be mindful of how you're going to bring people in on that journey. And when, when and how they need, they need to be informed. Yes, you need to break it down. Very simple. Create small milestones, because momentum is so important and making people feel like they're accomplishing and achieving something, even if you don't hit it, because it's a stretch. At least you've moved closer to it. And then you can revisit, it's constantly steering the ship.

Daniel Franco: 40:38

And by keeping those people involved throughout, keeping them in the loop and keeping the process transparent, exciting, Brian, really

Dan Levy: 40:49

one of the biggest Yeah, how often? Do you hear people complain that they weren't part or they nitpicking on something? When we run a workshop, the first thing I try to do is demonstrate vulnerability, because it gives everyone people permission, because I'm demonstrating myself Yeah. And I've got no qualms about making myself look like an idiot I do on a daily basis, just an icebreaker, you know, it's not even an icebreaker. walked into the room and tripped over a cake all the way through to, I have to get people have skin in the game, because as soon as they've got skin in the game, they feel attached. I know from a creative, I'm coming back from design, the amount of vulnerability in showing your work and getting feedback is really hard. Often, many people in businesses aren't used to feedback, they aren't used to that creative process, which means they have to be vulnerable because they go back to show their baby. So no one thinks they've got an ugly baby. So immediately, we have to make sure that they've shared a story a personal story. They've done something stupid like Santa song or done a silly high five or made up a mantra, something where they'd be like, well, this isn't part of the problem process. However, it's all about changing and getting people set switched and present in the new environment. To tackle that problem. What's

Daniel Franco: 42:23

the question that you would ask to break people's barriers down?

Dan Levy: 42:27

So remote? One of the things that I've been asking would be, what do you have for breakfast?

Daniel Franco: 42:34

Sure.

Dan Levy: 42:35

Or an in changing name on zoom to breakfast? or What was your favorite kids superhero growing up? What's your favorite cartoon character changing? I mean, is zoom. And that way when like when things get super serious, yeah. And you can say, look, Bugs Bunny, you just stop. And it kind of grounds people. And

Daniel Franco: 42:54

then when someone gets angry, yeah. And into the Hulk, all about taking the age off of things, because it's supposed to be fun. Yeah, mining is fun.

Dan Levy: 43:05

Design. And designing is not just for designers design isn't. And this is, this is a big misconception. Yeah, people just assume design is a craft. And yet it's not a craft. It's a capability,

Daniel Franco: 43:16

just putting the moving pieces together. And it really well,

Dan Levy: 43:19

when what's your mindset? when you're when you're talking to business leaders, trying to explain to them design is a capability because they're designing their business. They're designing the types of conversations they want to have. They're designing the outcome they want. It's very different from them thinking, their perception of design of Photoshop, etc. That's a completely different animal. Yes,

Daniel Franco: 43:43

it's changing their perspective on what design is. Yeah, it's an education piece. We have that common problem with change management, I guess as a as a thought process. The lack of understanding the changes holistic thing, and the human centered thing, as opposed to I can move my glass from one side of the table to the other. And as a change, people don't like change that I don't like well, and I think we've said this back on offset is somewhere on the podcast before. I'll say it again, because it's powerful is people do like change if it benefits them.

Dan Levy: 44:21

Yeah, it's always transition even from little ones. I can see it for my kids. The transition, no one likes to transition.

Daniel Franco: 44:28

Yeah, well, that's true. I think like I said, if you if I was to give you a million dollars right now, I'm pretty sure you would be very happy with that change. Yeah, that transition from me reaching over the table and give it you would, I wouldn't see the transition. And you'd run out of here and slam the doors and go what some Bugs Bunny but the the the if change benefits the people within the business, then it's going to be more likely adopted.

Dan Levy: 44:55

Yeah, it'd be such a such a, I mean, we deal in that business of change as well because Is the impact we're having in regards to breaking down or working with silos even though I, you know, that wasn't something that I lead with is significant. But change in an organization is so complex, because the space, the route from A to B is very easy, very simple. We want to adopt windows teams, then that's about the journey was about all the getting the people the process and all of that online, because somebody might not like team somebody doesn't want to move their computer, somebody dancer, this person needs like to go through this process, it needs 10 approve approval process. Meanwhile, your competitor, they've just switched to slack, or they've switched to something, they're already looking at rebuilding their architecture in something else, and you've been left behind. While you're having arguments about things that aren't even important. You forgot about the intent. The intent is for us to work quicker. We're not connected, we need a space to say things so everybody can look at it. It's not about teams.

Daniel Franco: 46:03

So how do you break that mold?

Dan Levy: 46:06

Well, we get people to realize and share their needs. And once we can find that common ground, and we ask them to connect and get empathy with each other where their problems and their pain points are, they're more likely to come on that journey.

Daniel Franco: 46:28

So design sprint that you would run to do it that's the start of that process is defining the needs of an individual and you're there for a whole week is that how, what is the general look and feel of that. So we start, we start design sprints with a problem frame. And the reason we do problem framing is a lot of

Dan Levy: 46:47

other people that run design sprints are very rough, ready to go into stripes, design sprint, which I think it's very dangerous. From an external perspective, your internal game to design sprint, you have an understanding of the legacy of the problem, or the politics, etc. However, you get to better outcomes. If you stop and you problem frame at a business level, you get the buy in from the stakeholders, you're able to clarify what that problem is and how it impacts both the business and the customer and who that customer is. You get the alignment from everyone. And you get the prioritization. And outcome of a problem framing session is actually a challenge. Like we know what the problem is, everyone's got buying, everyone's behind it. Everyone has an understanding of the process to go for it and what the expected outcome, you have an understanding of who need in the business or connected to the business to bring into the room. I can't tell you how painful it is running a design sprint on the wrong challenge, or it's not even worth solving. Or the wrong people aren't, you know, impact

Daniel Franco: 47:57

I was gonna I was gonna be one of my follow up questions. One of the biggest pitfalls that you would see in these design sprints Is that the right people haven't been in

Dan Levy: 48:05

not anymore because we run problem for me. Yeah, so we commit to the people that need to be in it, you can run, you can do an exercise where you do a stakeholder map, and you get the people to say these are the people that are impacted by the problem. And we bring them together. And then the final thing is the person at the other end. Because you need to test and validate with those people. Once you have that, then you're everyone's ready to unpack that problem. Understand that problem, understand potential solutions around that problem and how other people are tackling that problem and what is relevant, before we start ideating coming up with a potential solution that we want to test that relates back to that challenge will answer some of the conditions that will validate, you know, business conditions, things around whether an investment is worth a lot worth doing, whether it's something that's going to make a difference, etc. These are labeled as sprint questions. And then we can build something very simple. From a prototyping perspective, to test and get that validation, very simple. It's relevant to the people we're testing with. And it's answering just the questions we need. We're not prototyping the whole solution. We're not doing an alpha build. We're just building something to get an understanding, really, and then from there. So this is a big thing as well for us. It's all very welcoming in doing that leaving people scratching their heads and black what's next. The end part of our design sprint process is a project planning and retro and that because we start to incorporate a lot of the elements of Lean and Agile product development into what we're doing because often where people go to is that lean process of prototyping which is something we help them with and be Building up all those metrics and what it is in the value proposition, etc, and then leading into the Agile production development cycle. So if we can stop in place to start really yeah, and also stop bringing that language in, because it connects with them, and also helps them build up their confidence and understanding of what the end to end cycle is. And then beyond that, what we do is we have, I call it a 28 days later check here, mainly the 28 days out of the womb. But it's always like the zombies come here, what have we done? So we have a water? Yeah, so we have a plan that will check back in and see where they're up to. And it holds everyone accountable, and ensures there's some sort of momentum beyond that, because we don't necessarily lead with our training, somebody comes to us for training, we're like, let's run this, let's see if it works for your business. And then we'll train because there's nothing worse than people go in for training. And they come into the end of it, and everyone gets back to their desk, and it's like, and then it sits on the shelf. What's the benefit of bringing in external facilitator? As opposed to running these

Daniel Franco: 51:10

types of sprints internally? Can I ask you that question as well? Well, I'm asking you that because it's a common problem that all consultants, I guess, come across is that businesses will just opt for seeking to get one of their internal people to do it, who may not be skilled up in it, but have a little bit of knowledge in the area. Is that

Dan Levy: 51:38

yes, yeah. I mean, I was on the call to a client this morning. And they were explaining the friction point they have between working with more space and having their internals add a problem this way, they were looking to make a decision, they put the problem out to their internal team, and us as part of their external team. And we had completely opposing responses. We weren't aware of the full picture. Whereas their team was aware of the full strategic landscape and what they were trying to achieve. Therefore, our response was based on a protection and nurturing of the client. However, we weren't aware of all the conditions. That wasn't a problem. But it was interesting for the leader, and it made them think about, and it stopped them from making action because they didn't know which way to proceed. And that's where it's a problem. However, when you're working with someone, you, you expect them to be able to provide a landscape you need to understand. And that's where problem framing and that sort of stuff comes in where you can get enough of an understanding because you get a disclosure of the information you need to be able to proceed. See, as a facilitator, you've got to have some sort of skin in the game. Because you got to understand where you're leading people was having an internal facilitator, what we found is that they don't have the gravitas. And I don't mean this from an ego perspective, or respect, because their position might be something else. Therefore, it doesn't matter what they do. They're always going to be Timmy from the news, or whatever it is. It doesn't matter. Like what's this? This is probably over and above their job. descript. Yeah, Timmy with a BA and a whiteboard. Mom. Yeah. Unfortunately, that is the perception. Yeah. By bringing in an external facilitator. That's their position. That's their role. They're a specialist in that they've done it. Lots of times, they're able to be agile in a workshop. How many workshops? Have you been in? Where you've gone like your plan halfway through the day, you've realized? You were completely like the wrong thing? If you ever

Daniel Franco: 53:39

Yeah, absolutely. All the time you get this vision, or get this idea in your head. And someone throws the spell, it's just better, right? someone throws a spanner in the works. And you Oh, hang on. Yeah, I did not consider that or hadn't even thought of that or had that perspective,

Dan Levy: 53:54

you've got to be agile, like a cat, you have to be planning, like, there's so many routes going on in your mind, you can't have a connection to the problem, you have to be aware of it, you can't have a connection to the problem, because your role as a facilitator is to guide people to the other end. And I think if you're attached to the bias, and political drama, and whatever the situation is, it's very hard for you because your mind is somewhere else by having the purity of somebody in the position to help guide people through from end to end. Gives takes the wire away from people and also it's like having, I don't I don't mean that in our style of facilitations like a teacher, but a teacher gives people permission and conducts the space and conducts the conversations. So it becomes a lot more a lot safer. And there's permission to be able to talk and they know that they can control that tap as well.

Daniel Franco: 54:59

With Just approach the hour now. Halfway. Yes, it's been a good chat so far. So, so far? Well, it's gonna go downhill from Well, I think, yeah, I think it will go down. We'll get the scotches out. And we definitely will go down here. We will close it out, I think because we could probably even consider having more future conversations about this has been a good chat. What we do is when we, when we do wrap up the the we asked a few questions. Now I'm interested, you are very values driven human being, as we've, we've pointed out, do you do much personal development on yourself too? Yes, yes,

Dan Levy: 55:43

I commit, every year I commit. And the people that work apart, have more space, it's something I'm really mindful of as well, giving them the flight plan. Like my goal, as a leader within the business. I'm really mindful of also providing the tools for the people that work with me as well, to be able to succeed, but I take my professional development very seriously. And I allocate a budget every year to make sure that I develop and go down this weird and wonderful path of this world that I've that I've started, I only just scratched the surface of

Daniel Franco: 56:20

Yeah. It's, it's Yeah, it's a highly recommend the personal development path to anyone. You learn more about yourself, when you do go down that path. And yes, you're right. It is about allocating a budget. And again, you've chunked it down. People say I've got this goal, this is want to go this is the career I want to get to, you know, break it down. It's the same thing with everything that we do in life, isn't it?

Dan Levy: 56:41

Well, people make an investment in us. And it's my obligation to make sure that we are as sharp as possible. And we are up to date and up to speed because people see us as a trusted adviser. And therefore we have to take the stress and the pain out of them, for them to know every week, not the way I'm not saying we know everything, but we're up to speed. And we've developed our practice. And our what we've developed our practice and the way we facilitate the way we coach the way we help people, to a degree where we feel like we're up to speed with what's going on, we've done this. This is a shameless plug. So you were right, I think this is going to go downhill. But we run a an event. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna plug it here, but we run this. So we run us a series called The future of now. And the reason I came up with a future of now the reason it's called the future of now, it's because I was fed up with all of these reports that come out that talk about the future 2030 and all these ads for the universities that your future career that doesn't even exist yet. And I felt like it was giving people the permission to say, it's tomorrow's problem. When tomorrow's problem is happening today. Yeah, people are using these new options. And I wanted to bring that out to an audience. And I wanted to be able to demonstrate just like what you're doing with this. So I caught Robert cheekily, I call it the future of now, because it was like, you know, this now, guys, you got to figure this out.

Daniel Franco: 58:20

You got to start. Tomorrow's problems are designed by today's thinking. They really know exactly.

Dan Levy: 58:25

That's very profound. See that on your Instagram feed. And we've been running it now for a while, and the audience is growing. And we've got an amazing community. And we're bringing in incredible speakers. And they're talking about things that they're doing and their approaches and their methodologies. And it's like an hour professional development session for free, brilliant, and they're so generous with their time. And we're building a wonderful, wonderful community. And we're learning and we're providing an opportunity for business leaders and people in their organizations to come to our event, which is the future of now run fortnightly. And they don't have to read a book. They don't have to join a meetup group to learn more about agile, for example, they don't have to put themselves vulnerable, where they're going to have job seekers and recruitment agencies, etc. poaching them for work. They're in a safe space where they can listen to somebody talk about behavioral science, complex design systems, could be culture change, jobs to be done from some of the best speakers globally. This is the advantage of being remote and walk away and say, Look, this does or doesn't make sense. But I've got connection into this now and I can progress my future. Again, it's about changing people's perspective. And

Daniel Franco: 59:48

I'll be sure to be on the invite list the next day. They say there's a lot of books that you've got here. Yeah, and use and none of them have that. I see any creases in a break. The ones with the I know this is, you've said, this is not even a quarter of your book collection that you've got at home. So what you're applying you tell you something, yeah,

Dan Levy: 1:00:14

I the only reason I think I'm going to keep the office is so my wife can't figure out the amount of books.

Daniel Franco: 1:00:24

I've got one wall full of books at home and I'm standing on the second wall. And my wife's not very happy with me that but that's alright, so what is your favorite book? What is my favorite book? Yeah. Oh my god, I know. This doesn't have to be nonfiction doesn't fit, whatever. What is your face? Okay, so

Dan Levy: 1:00:41

one of my favorite books is, gosh, the places you will go by Dr. Seuss is nice. It's one of my, it makes me cry every time I read it, and I read it with my kids. It's all about the finding your own future. Yeah. And bring up Come on, complying to anything. couple of books that really changed me significantly, in terms of the way I think, would be the tale of Pooh, Winnie the Pooh. And also design your life by Vince frost, who is a designer out from UK and lives in Sydney now, incredible designer, and also a book by a chap called Jake Knight, I'm looking at it right there. It's had such a significant impact on my profession. So

Daniel Franco: 1:01:31

what's our spring,

Dan Levy: 1:01:33

it's called spring. It's, it's still relevant. We change the spring, it's evolved, but everything has to evolve. Now how they talk about the Agile Manifesto like it, Moses came down from wherever, on a stone tablet. This is the equivalent of that, if you're in the workplace made facilitation call to some degree, it's some form of credibility in the design world. But personally, for me, this book has had such a profound impact on my career and provided me a permission and the light so to speak in regards to the avenues that we could take and it quick funny story about this. So I bought this book. And they sent me to by accident so I Oh, Jake, I'm connected with Jake so I Jake some money. So Jake, I hear you. And I've got two copies of the book. I did I'm quite lucky because I got I ordered a pair of new balanced trainers. beginning of the year and accidentally

Daniel Franco: 1:02:36

I can have the same problem. I guess it was like I sent two rode bikes.

Dan Levy: 1:02:42

Did you series Yeah. That's that's called the Noah dilemma. Yeah, it's coming to

Daniel Franco: 1:02:48

Yeah, I get absolutely brilliant. I got sent to two and a half $1,000 bikes. Would you do with a second? I said, this is gonna be recording rally. No. So I I actually they rang me said we've sent you two bikes. And I said, Yes, you have, I would have said Really? Yeah. No. I said, Yes. You have, right. Because, yes, my value set? Yeah, I would assume. And I said, Yes, you have. And they said we're gonna send someone around to pick it up. And I said, No problems. Within I think it was two weeks, but no one had still come to pick it up. And so I rang them. And I said, you guys coming to pick this up? Yes. Yes. You're so busy. We'll send someone around the next week or so. And then no one came to pick it up again. And I reckon it was three months down the track. And they called me and they said, we're not just keep it. Really? Yeah. Okay, that was sold. I was like, Yeah, well, I kept it and I actually kept it up. My parents asked me why I didn't have this space in my house at the time. I said, Dad, check this in the garage. They're gonna come pick it up. I told I told them that I changed the address. went through the whole rigmarole and

Dan Levy: 1:03:56

good on you, man. I mean, I've got to admit, you know, the second batch China's I didn't say anything.

Daniel Franco: 1:04:01

Oh, no. Oh, yeah. But over but this for me it was if they would have asked because it was a $2,000 bike plus all the excess Yeah, so I got double of all the accessories the shoe that the cleats the whole thing whole thing? Are you still writing no i had an accident on the bus. That's the funny thing I could have done with this spare bike. But anyway, that's a story for another day. Okay, all right. I reckon it would have been about three months or so. So with this.

Dan Levy: 1:04:43

We were working with government when I got this book. And I remember I got the second book and I gave it somebody I read it I was like, this is it. Like you know when things go off. I was like, this is a sample book in and I gave it to somebody and I said the second book and I wrote On a post or sticky note, this will check this. This will change your life.

Daniel Franco: 1:05:03

Yeah, I don't I don't use No, I have similar books. Yes,

Dan Levy: 1:05:07

I have to stop using the word awesome because it has so much gravitas to it, that I lose it everything else also down it's just, it's just the door. Automatic was awesome. So I feel like really like limited but this really had such a significant change.

Daniel Franco: 1:05:25

So everything Jake Knapp sprint

Dan Levy: 1:05:28

night yeah, Jake night, and I can't, I can't say him without mentioning the other Beatles that nobody ever knows is John's or at ski and Brandon co It was also very small. But so I gave it to her. And I, we were working with the government agency, I won't say who it was for a couple of months after. And they never took out their drawer. never took it out of their drawer. And it wound me up every day.

Daniel Franco: 1:05:57

my free book, which I gave to them, you know I did last day as well. They deserve it. Maybe they didn't even need their life changed. Maybe

Dan Levy: 1:06:14

I took it back and I gave it to somebody else. And like, I think giving a book to somebody is such a gift. Yeah, because there's so much that he comes back to vulnerability. So much in giving books, I think so most lending books and giving that knowledge and share it like this is such a sacred thing to do. I

Daniel Franco: 1:06:35

think I agree. I remember when I first embarked on the reading journey, and I just went about, like, you know, when you receive a new piece of information, you want to tell the world, right? And it's quite funny because you feel you learn a new piece of information. And today's a new day, you've learned that piece of new information. And it's like you've known it forever. So you're around until everyone or this way, as we go. As if you don't know that way is yesterday, you didn't actually know that. So I was actually going around and buying books with people go here, read this read this, you need to read this because I could see issues that they were having. And I wanted them to read it. So that would change their life I was that I thought that was the right thing to do. I it took me quite a while to actually realize that receiving the gift. Receiving the book is just as much of a skill as as as providing a book because when you receive the book, you need to understand the intent it was given to you now if someone recommends me a book lesson, then you should really read this, it'll help you learn or to help you do this, then my attitude towards that is okay. I've seen a gap in me. I'd be interested to explore that. Right. And I at least what I do is at least look into the basis of the book. What is it? What am I going to get out of it? Okay, actually, I do know that I'm just not applying that because I've chosen not to whatever just yet. Yeah, absolutely. But I think it's receiving the book is absolutely understanding that why we do that was listen to Tim Ferriss podcast, he had Hugh Jackman on really good. Gates on my site. Yes, yeah. I'm gonna listen to I follow Tim Ferriss quite a bit.

Dan Levy: 1:08:10

He does. He loves a lengthy conversation, but I can see for buyers how he should we should that Hugh Jackman says in it and I must know split. Weiss is something he says I was listening to this on my cycle yesterday. Yeah. to the client. Yeah, horrible cycle. He says he gives books as gifts. And it's like, they spoke about it. And he says, however, one of the biggest burdens as a is giving people big books. Yeah, giving people big books. Really big. No, my, my brother loved my brother. He gave me this. This book all about Japanese samurai. It's called [inaudible audio] or something like small Tex. I've never opened it. And he's ready. And he loves it. Have

Daniel Franco: 1:09:02

you ever read it?

Dan Levy: 1:09:03

I know. Because I love all that type of things. I love Shantaram and all those big dense books where you get into the world and you and I know I'll love it. And I want I think I read Shogun. Yeah, that's how he knows why. But I just don't have the time to commit. And it's like, yeah, you know? Yeah, I saw your book. He looks good. Yeah. But then like, again, I was talking someone about podcasts and the other day was like, 15 minutes is enough. Yeah. You know,

Daniel Franco: 1:09:32

you're never in it. We're in. We're in two days. That note, we will end that here, thank you very much, Dan for for joining the podcast today. What's next was more space.

Dan Levy: 1:09:48

Lunch and eat and sleep. Kids. What's next for more space? We are, well, we were pretty well we're in a transition period back to whatever new normal is. And we always believe the remote. We're now trying to adapt our frameworks to be hybrid. And we are bound to, we're moving into a very new world. I can more space, which I'm super excited about which I am reluctant to

Daniel Franco: 1:10:28

tell No, no, no, we won't. We won't go into it. We just watch this space. So where can we find you? Then?

Dan Levy: 1:10:34

Let the space yes space? Where can you find more space for light? Again, you can find us on our website more spaceflight.com.au. If you hang a forward slash in there and put future of now you can with hyphens in between the words. You can see all the events that we're running. Yep. We're on LinkedIn. I am prolific on LinkedIn. I've chosen that channel and I'll harass and talk and give my opinions. I saw that one of your questions was around the Australia logo here. But that will be day three. I don't think we need to cover that. I think I just mentioned it. And I'm sure there's a collective groan from your audience. why anyone would design a logo in the shape of the Coronavirus. It is beyond that it

Daniel Franco: 1:11:21

is an input an A you in the middle of it.

Dan Levy: 1:11:23

Yeah. Somebody made a good point was I thought we use flags our logos, aren't they? Well, that's true. Yeah. So I think that's a very good point. But we got we got money to spend. So let's get a new logo for 10,000 or whatever it was. I'm sure it's part of a bigger system and the thinking behind it will be justified.

Daniel Franco: 1:11:43

We're gonna end now. Yeah. We'll find your DailyVee on LinkedIn and more space for life.com.

Dan Levy: 1:11:49

Yeah, that's the best place to find us easy. Dan, thank you so much for having us, mate.

Synergy IQ: 1:11:55

Thank you once again for joining us here at creating synergy. It's been great spending this time with you. Please jump on to the Synergy IQ Facebook page where the discussion continues after the show. join our mailing list so you'll know what's happening next at Synergy iq.com.au. And of course, don't forget to subscribe to this podcast. And if you really enjoyed it, please share it with your friends.