00:00:09:27 - 00:00:42:18
Daniel Franco
Everyone. And welcome back to the Creating Synergy Podcast. Today I had the absolute pleasure of sitting down with the great Andrew Downs, the founder of Sage Group, an amazing automation company that began its journey in Adelaide, South Australia and has since made its mark on the global stage. Andrew's journey of how Sage automation started is one of the great South Australian business stories from the early days of operating out of his backyard shed to being kicked out of that shed because the whole neighborhood was complaining about the noise to becoming a powerhouse in the industry.

00:00:42:20 - 00:01:07:09
Daniel Franco
His story is one of resilience innovation and strategic acumen. Now the SAGE Group has over 700 employees generating revenues of north of $200 million. And Andrew and I deep dive into his childhood upbringing and early career, the pivotal moments that set him on his path and how a boss that was almost considered a bully helped shape his character and later, who he is today.

00:01:07:13 - 00:01:37:18
Daniel Franco
Andrew Strength is his ability to connect with people and create long lasting partnerships, and he's been known to strike a deal off the back of a handshake agreement. So during this chat today, he leaves no stone unturned, sharing his company's growth strategies, including what he would call skunkworks. We also discuss Andrew's leadership philosophy that embraces both success and failures and how the 2008 financial crisis almost decimated the business to two his growth and expansion beyond South Australian borders.

00:01:37:24 - 00:01:59:28
Daniel Franco
I know you're absolutely going to love this conversation is filled with laughs, valuable lessons, insights, intriguing stories, and also glimpses far into the future of the Sage group. So without further ado, here is my chat with Andrew Downs. Welcome back to the Creating Synergy Podcast. Today I think we've got the A unicorn entrepreneur on the show. Mr. Andrew Downs.

00:01:59:28 - 00:02:00:26
Daniel Franco
Welcome to the show.

00:02:01:03 - 00:02:01:27
Andrew Downs
Thank you.

00:02:01:29 - 00:02:25:16
Daniel Franco
I say unicorn and I'll give a reason why I say that is Sage group was founded by yours truly yourself 700 plus employees, 200 million in revenue. You're an entrepreneur of the year for e e y entrepreneur of the year. You're in 700 as 700, you're on seven plus boards. Just one of the great South Australian and Australian business stories.

00:02:25:23 - 00:02:26:20
Daniel Franco
And kudos.

00:02:26:22 - 00:02:28:21
Andrew Downs
Thank you. Have a great time.

00:02:28:24 - 00:02:41:11
Daniel Franco
Um, what, um. What do we need to know about Andrew? I mean, from an earliest context point of view, like going right back, what do we need to know about your earliest contacts to understand who's sitting here today?

00:02:41:12 - 00:03:01:24
Andrew Downs
Let's, let's start with my childhood. I think I grew up in Woodside. Yep, humble beginnings. Dad was a businessman, but he ended up a biker. He was a biker and then ended up a delivery driver. Mum, just a beautiful mum. Never, never had a driving license. Just lived a beautiful life, very family focused. I got a brother. Stephen.

00:03:01:28 - 00:03:23:26
Andrew Downs
Yep. So, you know, back in those days I'd say Woodside was more country than it is now. It's more of a suburb of Adelaide now. Yeah, beautiful. I'd say humble beginnings. Not a lot of money floating around, but good values. Um, happy childhood. Yeah. Uh, never, never excelled at school. But then I was never pushed to excel at school, so it was just everyone was happy.

00:03:23:26 - 00:03:24:18
Andrew Downs
Yeah. Yeah.

00:03:24:18 - 00:03:42:19
Daniel Franco
Just live life to just live life. Is there anything now when you look back, is there anything that actually makes you smile when you look back on it, you know, with a fond memory, with with your brother or your families or anything that actually just makes you feel at home?

00:03:42:20 - 00:03:49:02
Andrew Downs
But once again, I think, you know, society's changed a lot. I remember Sundays being literally gone, visiting cousins. Yeah.

00:03:49:05 - 00:03:50:07
Daniel Franco
I'm driving around and.

00:03:50:07 - 00:03:58:16
Andrew Downs
My mum had five sisters and three brothers. You'd always be visiting cousins. That was the Sunday or the Sunday roast and. Yeah, but it was simple, enjoyable life.

00:03:58:17 - 00:03:59:12
Daniel Franco
Yeah. And I.

00:03:59:14 - 00:04:00:13
Andrew Downs
Um.

00:04:00:16 - 00:04:10:21
Daniel Franco
I remember those days. I remember those used to just get in the car, drive around, and you'd knock on the door and see if anyone. So there was an Italian thing. We used to like leave a laugh on the door or something like that.

00:04:10:24 - 00:04:14:12
Andrew Downs
And it would always be take, take some scones or, you know, sit down, have a cup of tea.

00:04:14:12 - 00:04:15:07
Daniel Franco
And yes.

00:04:15:09 - 00:04:17:20
Andrew Downs
Honestly, they're just fond memories.

00:04:17:22 - 00:04:25:24
Daniel Franco
That's brilliant. Did you I mean, you say you had wonderful parents that owned the bakery running on the bike.

00:04:26:02 - 00:04:46:21
Andrew Downs
He had a brother, Ted, who was into racehorses. Yeah. And Dad, they had the bakery together at Woodside. Yeah. I think Dad did most of the work. I guess it was more of a horse trainer, anything in love with horses. And then I got offered to there was a buyout about when I was born and after that. And then that just worked for us the for the rest of his years.

00:04:46:24 - 00:04:53:09
Daniel Franco
Do you think? I mean, there's obviously some entrepreneurial spirit with your old man there. Do you think that had an impact on you?

00:04:53:09 - 00:05:12:21
Andrew Downs
Well, that would go back to his mum. Yeah. I come out from the UK Granny Downs and Grandpa Dan and I never, never got to meet. He died before I was born, but they had bike rides in Pinnaroo Limuru, Port Broughton. So she was quite a successful businesswoman and I think they would have, you know, going on from what she she had done for.

00:05:12:24 - 00:05:16:03
Daniel Franco
Yeah, Jamaica. Do you make any good back in your back, anything.

00:05:16:07 - 00:05:29:21
Andrew Downs
I'm actually an excellent cook whether or not really we can delve into that light of it. Yeah. I love cooking. It's one of my other one Passions pastimes. I got that probably from my mum. My dad will love cooking.

00:05:29:23 - 00:05:35:04
Daniel Franco
And so your mum, I mean, what did that look like growing up? No license, no job. What was it?

00:05:35:06 - 00:05:59:18
Andrew Downs
Well, just. Yeah, basic, simple. Lots of love in the family. Probably too much love, I would say, You know, a little bit cotton wool, maybe. Yeah. You know, I'm overprotective. Possibly. Yeah, but. But just loving. Yeah. And, you know, home cooked meals that Dad would. I don't think I went to a restaurant until I left and started worked off of things.

00:05:59:18 - 00:06:06:24
Andrew Downs
Yeah, well, I would say your mother's a better cook, this type of thing. So, you know, you grow your own vegetables and you do all that stuff is remarkable.

00:06:06:27 - 00:06:17:24
Daniel Franco
Remarkable. And so you said schooling wasn't your strength and you decided that at 16 you were going to leave school and go and get an apprentice.

00:06:18:01 - 00:06:19:09
Andrew Downs
Yep.

00:06:19:12 - 00:06:20:25
Daniel Franco
Can you tell us about that story?

00:06:20:28 - 00:06:39:23
Andrew Downs
So once again, I think there's always pros and cons and also mum and dad being so laid back and so wonderful. Yeah, I never cared one iota about homework, school grades or anything. Yeah. As long as we're healthy and happy. That was the motto in life. Unfortunately, you get that. It's pretty good. But you do get into fourth year.

00:06:39:24 - 00:06:55:07
Andrew Downs
Yeah. And you think, What am I going to do? And I don't think they cared. Yeah, I could have been a bloody leaning on a shovel for the local council. I would have been happy. But I started to think, what am I going to do? And then panic sits in because you can't quickly go back and learn the last four years.

00:06:55:07 - 00:06:55:20
Daniel Franco
Yeah, that's.

00:06:55:20 - 00:07:13:17
Andrew Downs
Right. So you're 16, you're in year 11 and you start looking at all the competency you need or the, you know, the aptitude that you might need to get some of these jobs. And it's like now, not now. And my cousin Laurie, he used to work in the railways. He said, you know, these are the little things you pick up in life.

00:07:13:19 - 00:07:39:25
Andrew Downs
He said, look, become an electrician. He said, I'm a going on a roll on a rail gang. Yeah. He said, we work at gets it, those electricians. I just came up to a couple of lines together, piss off and that's it. So I thought about us and say, You know what? That's what I'll do. So I went and handwritten and wrote, you know, yeah, maybe 20 applications for work experience firstly and for an apprenticeship.

00:07:39:27 - 00:07:41:06
Andrew Downs
So simple as that.

00:07:41:09 - 00:07:43:09
Daniel Franco
Brilliant. And Bridgestone.

00:07:43:12 - 00:07:56:19
Andrew Downs
Well, obviously I applied for things like him in those days, Electricity Trust in South Australia. There was telecom, there. Was he W and S Yeah, it was. And it's all like no no. I went all the, I went to.

00:07:56:19 - 00:07:57:18
Daniel Franco
All that straight to the big.

00:07:57:20 - 00:08:31:25
Andrew Downs
I went to all the big ones. But you know I thought you have been unsuccessful, you've been unsuccessful. I did get an apprenticeship as a fitter and turner with Simpson in those days Simpson said, Yeah, but I had my heart set. I didn't even know what a fitter was. And I had my heart's in the electrician and somehow through that process of 20 different interviews and you know, by the way, electrical contractors as well, there was, you know, there would have been Nelson's and Odg and all those guys I'd forgot about the Union roll slash Bridgestone one and you have these moments in life and you think, You know what, I really fucked this up,

00:08:31:25 - 00:09:01:28
Andrew Downs
right? Yeah, I, I was totally, totally. I just said, Yep, I've got to get back and repeat your 11 or do your 12. I didn't file your 11. Yeah. And I'll just focus, work hard and I will get the job done. And I come home from school and I told Dad because it was, it was like December and is like the last week of school of school had just finished and, uh, I told dad, Look, I have to get back to school.

00:09:01:28 - 00:09:07:28
Andrew Downs
This is a disaster. I've learned a lesson here. I, you know, you got to work hard.

00:09:08:01 - 00:09:09:28
Daniel Franco
And he said, I got a phone call from.

00:09:10:00 - 00:09:26:15
Andrew Downs
Um, Universal today, and you and you didn't do well, Then I said, Yeah, yeah. Then I told you I'm resigned to the fact I've got to go to school. But anyway, he didn't tell me the truth. He let me let me just remind you for another 5 minutes I said, you've actually got the job.

00:09:26:18 - 00:09:27:29
Daniel Franco
Oh, well done.

00:09:28:01 - 00:09:38:06
Andrew Downs
So we went out and, you know, even from humble beginnings, he said, I'll get you a good car. So he got me a brand new Ford Escort, four door, two liter.

00:09:38:08 - 00:09:39:17
Daniel Franco
16 year old boy, 70.

00:09:39:17 - 00:09:44:24
Andrew Downs
Nine rally pack, 16 years of age, a brand new car. There's a story about the car later. You must ask me.

00:09:44:26 - 00:09:47:07
Daniel Franco
All right. What kind of ask now is it?

00:09:47:07 - 00:09:50:26
Andrew Downs
Well, I just had it represented to me. Oh, really? The day of the city to buy it.

00:09:50:29 - 00:09:54:27
Daniel Franco
Oh, really? And so did you sell it in the meantime?

00:09:54:27 - 00:10:05:29
Andrew Downs
Well, dunno where it went after I got rid of it. But I spoke to some mates about this love of mine. A car. Yeah. 16. Yeah. And we don't know if it's the original, but it is the same model. The same spec.

00:10:06:02 - 00:10:07:01
Daniel Franco
And so you don't know.

00:10:07:04 - 00:10:07:06
Andrew Downs
The.

00:10:07:06 - 00:10:08:08
Daniel Franco
One that was yours could.

00:10:08:08 - 00:10:18:08
Andrew Downs
It. They reckon it did come from South Australia. Made it way to Victoria but the same number plates. All right. The number plates. It's a look. Amazing story. So I was represented at my 60th.

00:10:18:15 - 00:10:20:24
Daniel Franco
All slightly.

00:10:20:26 - 00:10:22:08
Andrew Downs
Beautifully restored.

00:10:22:10 - 00:10:26:03
Daniel Franco
So wasn't was your sister your sister's was away though, wasn't it.

00:10:26:05 - 00:10:28:13
Andrew Downs
Yeah. I went up to Airlie Beach and then I had my 60th here.

00:10:28:15 - 00:10:29:01
Daniel Franco
Oh, here.

00:10:29:02 - 00:10:32:21
Andrew Downs
But all I'm saying I did that city to Byron and I thought that was the day that present it.

00:10:32:25 - 00:10:47:28
Daniel Franco
That's amazing. So. So let's talk about that city today for a moment. Yeah, we'll cut forward and then we'll come back So proud moment recently that you've just and you and Rice some amazing money for some charities and yeah can you tell us a little bit about.

00:10:47:29 - 00:11:03:23
Andrew Downs
Well what it was was I started I started to paint it I started using a patty about a couple of years ago. Yeah. Started getting fit. Never been a runner in my life, by the way. Not an athlete. Sportsman like yourself, you know, just someone is always running around and doing bits and pieces.

00:11:03:23 - 00:11:04:26
Daniel Franco
I'm not really a sportsman now.

00:11:04:29 - 00:11:09:22
Andrew Downs
I put put on plenty of weight over my time, drink too much, a lot of foods, all that stuff.

00:11:09:22 - 00:11:10:15
Daniel Franco
And a lot of that too.

00:11:10:15 - 00:11:32:00
Andrew Downs
And and I decided to get fit with a Quinton you he's my patty Yeah and running is definitely not my thing but we started to run and he wasn't a runner either. And then we started to run We did the we did the city to buy in 2019 and you know shocking time 1 to 12 or something, you know, nearly blew gasket.

00:11:32:00 - 00:11:35:17
Daniel Franco
It was hot. It's still pretty pretty good time. Oh well for those who aren't run it's.

00:11:35:17 - 00:11:47:25
Andrew Downs
Not it's horrible right. Yeah And I just thought to myself, you know what? Wouldn't it be great to set a goal, a long term goal to run that event under an hour. Yeah. And, and could I do it?

00:11:47:28 - 00:11:50:09
Daniel Franco
That's the benchmark. And it's under five minute kilometers.

00:11:50:09 - 00:11:57:28
Andrew Downs
Is under 5 minutes. Yes. Yeah. And I said, you know what? Why wouldn't I think of that? And then I came up with my slogan 60 to 60.

00:11:58:06 - 00:12:00:14
Daniel Franco
Brilliant. And I said, It'll be hard work.

00:12:00:14 - 00:12:09:14
Andrew Downs
And then, you know, I had I think 2022 was a was a blowout year because I went away for like six weeks overseas and I tried the city. But again, it was 108.

00:12:09:16 - 00:12:10:04
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

00:12:10:06 - 00:12:31:01
Andrew Downs
You know, running an event and then close to 90 kilos. And I said, man, there's a lot of work to do. So I focused and, and after I went to the ashes, which had a little bit of a blow out there, I come back and I had eight weeks, eight weeks to get. So this, this training done with a birthday, there's a birthday of two there too.

00:12:31:02 - 00:12:42:29
Andrew Downs
Yeah. So I had to plan all that and lost weight and probably the lightest I've been since I left school and 70, 78 this morning. 78 kilos. Yeah. Well this morning so I got my light down.

00:12:43:02 - 00:12:43:21
Daniel Franco
Still running.

00:12:43:21 - 00:12:48:06
Andrew Downs
Now. Yep. Run this morning. So on six k's at 27 and a half minutes or something.

00:12:48:08 - 00:12:51:12
Daniel Franco
Beautiful. Smashing you, loving the running now.

00:12:51:15 - 00:12:52:05
Andrew Downs
Enjoying it.

00:12:52:09 - 00:12:54:19
Daniel Franco
It's meditative isn't it. I really enjoy writing and.

00:12:54:19 - 00:13:12:06
Andrew Downs
Feel good when you finish. Yeah. So set the goal. Then I thought, Well, it's not just about me. Why don't we try to raise some money for charity? A very good friend of mine, Joe Collins, set up a foundation called the Sliding Doors Foundation. And so we ended up we ended up being the top fund raiser for the whole city to buy.

00:13:12:07 - 00:13:18:08
Andrew Downs
I said it's about 40, 42 and a half thousand or something. And I managed to raise nearly 25,000.

00:13:18:10 - 00:13:22:07
Daniel Franco
Well done. Well, kudos and 58 minutes.

00:13:22:09 - 00:13:31:22
Andrew Downs
58, 55, 58. It's just under 50. But that's as long as I would come in at 59, 59 did just phenomenal running. That's bloody heart too.

00:13:31:29 - 00:13:33:10
Daniel Franco
It would have been and that morning was.

00:13:33:10 - 00:13:34:14
Andrew Downs
Warm as brutal as.

00:13:34:14 - 00:13:35:17
Daniel Franco
You feel after.

00:13:35:20 - 00:13:46:00
Andrew Downs
Elated when I finished it, but I ran about the nine K mark. I'm thinking can I get you know, my legs are getting heavy and the heart was running up over 170 beats a minute. But anyway, we did it.

00:13:46:03 - 00:14:19:09
Daniel Franco
We did it. Well, fantastic story that one. And kudos and yes for Mafia run. Thanks for all the effort in regards to charity. That's amazing work. So back to the Bridgestone. Well, we start there. Well, I think last time we spoke, you said to me that there was a pivotal person in your career, early in your career at Bridgestone, who kind of took you under his wing, but might have been a little bit of a bully in the same process as.

00:14:19:11 - 00:14:36:28
Andrew Downs
The great Brian Coles. Yeah, it's since passed, but I just go back and I think about you 16. You're a kid. Mm. You've just been, you're just you're driving a brand new car and you got to get up at six in the morning drive. There was no tunnels then it was. And just get up and drive to work.

00:14:36:29 - 00:14:47:26
Andrew Downs
Had to be at work by seven and you just walk into this new world. So it's like that TV show, you know, when you you don't know what's going to happen. You walk behind, Yeah, what the hell's going on? Yeah, there's all these.

00:14:47:26 - 00:14:49:06
Daniel Franco
Thank God you hear that?

00:14:49:08 - 00:14:55:10
Andrew Downs
There's equipment, machinery, there's smells, it's rubber, there's there's tradesmen, there's people. And you just this kid. So what?

00:14:55:11 - 00:14:56:27
Daniel Franco
So you hadn't met anyone there?

00:14:56:27 - 00:15:16:11
Andrew Downs
You've just. No, they just said roll up on the 16th of 16th of January, 1980. Roll up, go to the foyer. I met the other two apprentices there who became great friends of mine as well. Yeah, well you know, talk about barbecue Bob later. But he was there first day of his apprenticeship and that's it off you guy.

00:15:16:14 - 00:15:18:04
Daniel Franco
And just straight on the line.

00:15:18:07 - 00:15:30:21
Andrew Downs
Well, not on the line. You're an apprentice. Yeah, I can do the workshop. And then you made all the people and you've got to put up with all the shit that apprentices get, get exposed to, you know, making jokes and stuff like that. But hey, it was a so.

00:15:30:26 - 00:15:34:25
Daniel Franco
So tell us about your boss. Why was it so pivotal?

00:15:34:27 - 00:15:53:20
Andrew Downs
Well, probably it wasn't. I didn't even realize he he wasn't my first boss there. Yeah, but he was that he was the guy that I eventually got assigned to. Yeah. And he was as hard as nails. He was tough, right? So, you know, I'm not too. I'm not too proud to say these days. You're in tears. Yeah, you.

00:15:53:25 - 00:16:12:24
Andrew Downs
You try to do your best and it's not good enough. I remember doing some work. He'd rip it off the bloody wall, or he'd say, You have to stay back and finish it. And that's what I'm talking about, you know? Is it bullying or great education? I'd say at the time I felt like I would have felt like, Yeah, this guy's been an absolute prick.

00:16:12:24 - 00:16:23:08
Andrew Downs
He's on you know, this is unfair. I want to throw my apprenticeship in. Yeah, I've had enough. I look back now, these are the best. This is the best education I could have gotten.

00:16:23:08 - 00:16:26:08
Daniel Franco
Mm. You know what helps you build the calluses, right?

00:16:26:11 - 00:16:49:22
Andrew Downs
It was a colossus. Understand quality. Do it right the first time. Don't accept mediocrity. So all those lessons, all good. So well, so far for my career sides, There's no doubt about that. And, you know, so he was like a father as hard as he was, we ended up having some fantastic bloody arguments and we had some blues, but we also had some great times.

00:16:49:22 - 00:16:58:05
Daniel Franco
Yeah, brilliant. Yeah. And so the transition you growing, you're in your career. How long were you at Bridgestone for?

00:16:58:07 - 00:17:13:24
Andrew Downs
14 years before I started Sides. But winning. But when I got the apprenticeship and I learned there's a couple things I learned. Yeah, I learned that I love the job. And I also learned that I wasn't as dumb as I thought because I tried school I really excelled at. Yeah, I think there's some connection between loving what you do.

00:17:13:24 - 00:17:38:03
Andrew Downs
Yeah. And then applying an education. And it is when schools missed the mark a bit. Yes. And then I worked out that with spare time I could do extra studies. I did while I was doing my apprenticeship. I did all these extra, I used to call them like post-trade subjects, industrial it tronic radio servicing. So I probably nearly spent every night at Regency type, you know, out there just doing extra courses.

00:17:38:03 - 00:17:40:02
Daniel Franco
What was the motivation?

00:17:40:05 - 00:17:45:28
Andrew Downs
Because the more knowledge, the more I could contribute back at the job. I mean, it's just it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

00:17:46:00 - 00:17:48:01
Daniel Franco
You loved it that much, that it was love it.

00:17:48:03 - 00:18:06:12
Andrew Downs
And then and then you get the era was good, too, because it was the start of industrial electronics. It was the start of season, which is what Sage basically was. It was the start of that whole thing. There was no one else with knowledge. So I got elevated very quickly, even through my apprenticeship, you know, give it to down.

00:18:06:12 - 00:18:11:04
Andrew Downs
Easy to do as a he can program the people say or if there's automation get him to do it.

00:18:11:07 - 00:18:11:17
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

00:18:11:24 - 00:18:23:04
Andrew Downs
So they even built a little electronics office down there with another character called Bob Murphy. Now they're old fashioned, you know, great, great bloke, great knowledge, but hard as nails as well.

00:18:23:11 - 00:18:25:24
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

00:18:25:26 - 00:18:36:21
Daniel Franco
So that throughout that career you're learning, you're improving, you're moving up the ranks and you decide actually there's an opportunity. You can start something in the back, in the back shed.

00:18:36:21 - 00:19:05:01
Andrew Downs
Not yet. Not yet. I mean, I've been promoted, I've sat look after the whole maintenance department. I've got about 40 guys working for me at 25. So there's a bit of bit of natural leadership come into it. Yeah, I'm still loving doing all the automation and upgrading stuff and so that was like an ongoing passion and it's funny and I Bridgestone's a very good company, great superannuation, good salary.

00:19:05:03 - 00:19:14:12
Andrew Downs
I'll go back one step. I was on the clock in those formative years, so every extra hour was overtime time and a half double time. I was making more money than some of the top managers.

00:19:14:12 - 00:19:15:12
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

00:19:15:14 - 00:19:29:02
Andrew Downs
Seven days a week loving it. And then they caught up with me and they said, Listen mate, you've now got to go on a salary. And the mess of the salary didn't work for me. So well. So what do you mean? I live to work 40 hours a week now. I get paid 40 hours a week.

00:19:29:04 - 00:19:29:19
Daniel Franco
But still do.

00:19:29:21 - 00:19:51:01
Andrew Downs
That means if you want me to do 70, 80, 90 hours, I get the same money and it's. I look back and maybe that's a bit selfish, but I thought, well, hang on, I'm not I'm not over keen on this. So I started pulling my hours back at Bridgestone's and then what am I going to do? And that's when I started tinkering with a very good friend of mine, actually, you know, we did it together.

00:19:51:08 - 00:19:54:06
Daniel Franco
So you had no choice but to take the 40 hour salary.

00:19:54:13 - 00:19:54:27
Andrew Downs
That's right.

00:19:55:00 - 00:19:56:24
Daniel Franco
And then so and then that's why I'm. Well, I'm not.

00:19:56:29 - 00:20:10:27
Andrew Downs
That would be that would be the norm in any job. But you hit a certain threshold. Yeah. You know, like making 100 grand a year. Yeah. Back then was a lot of money. Yeah. You're now on 45. Yeah. Or something like that. So I said, Oh shit. What am I going, I'm not going to work Saturdays and Sundays.

00:20:10:29 - 00:20:26:12
Andrew Downs
So I started doing electrical contracting at night, which I had done. A very good friend of mine, Paul Hurley, I went to, uh, we did our social diplomas together, electrical engineering, and we did more drinking than studying. But he was a mate, so we would, we would do stuff at night weekends.

00:20:26:14 - 00:20:27:05
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

00:20:27:08 - 00:20:47:06
Andrew Downs
Um, and that's when I met Electrical Contractor. He said, Hey, you could actually do a bit of automation work for us, um, and build a shed. So that was the start was, you know, uh, what am I trying to say? There's a point where now I took the money away. Yeah, that wasn't going to do it for me.

00:20:47:08 - 00:20:54:20
Andrew Downs
And then I'm off doing this moonlighting, working at nights and weekends and loving it. Yeah.

00:20:54:22 - 00:20:59:24
Daniel Franco
And so at what point did it get just too much where you were getting more work for?

00:20:59:24 - 00:21:22:27
Andrew Downs
But part of our story, and I've told this story many times, was the first job. Now, now my friend Paul Hurley, his nickname was Grogan. Yep. And my nickname was Scallop. Uh, and we did this lot from Art and I. Bob Amos is an old tradesman. He couldn't say I don't even go there. Scarlett attended to scallop, but these things stick.

00:21:23:00 - 00:21:49:02
Andrew Downs
And Paul had a little unit at Ascot Park there, and he. He wanted to get a vandalized put in, so he had to go to the strata title to say, I want to put in a vandalizing. And and I said, Well, I'll do it. And you know, that would be a money. Yeah. And yet the strata approves the vandalized and they once said that morning 8:00 bought a roll of cable vandalized, got up on the roof.

00:21:49:02 - 00:22:08:21
Andrew Downs
Did all this work. And at the end of the job, we had a little cabin. I love it when my grandkids would hit this one down. So what is a carbon invoice book? Right? We got this new book from the newsagent and and I actually said, What are we going to put on the top of the invoice? You know, it's just you and me doing this electrical work.

00:22:08:28 - 00:22:14:13
Andrew Downs
It's just put Sage on the top. What was a little bit skull up and grog and electrical.

00:22:14:15 - 00:22:14:29
Daniel Franco
Oh you're.

00:22:14:29 - 00:22:22:20
Andrew Downs
Kidding. And that's why we still have to capitalize today. Vegas. So it was is I dot dot.

00:22:22:23 - 00:22:23:07
Daniel Franco
Brilliant.

00:22:23:07 - 00:22:24:13
Andrew Downs
Electrical at the end.

00:22:24:13 - 00:22:25:20
Daniel Franco
Fantastic One.

00:22:25:20 - 00:22:49:18
Andrew Downs
Van Delight 150 bucks and we put the invoicing and I'll be honest with you too. We've talked about honesty in this podcast. Um, but basically we didn't get paid that day, but we knew would earn 150 bucks. So we went straight down to the West End like football club, got bloody blind drunk and had a great time. And so somehow there's a connection between working hard.

00:22:49:21 - 00:22:50:07
Daniel Franco
And playing hard.

00:22:50:08 - 00:22:55:27
Andrew Downs
And then playing had which become part of our early days, cultural space.

00:22:55:29 - 00:22:57:21
Daniel Franco
And so Sage goes from there.

00:22:57:23 - 00:23:15:15
Andrew Downs
So that's how I got a bigger business card. Then we go and get a business. Got it. It's I've got all these old business cards that I was really creative because I'm not a creative person. Like a sine wave on the front with it's. .8.2.8. Paul Early. And we didn't even were that tight. We didn't even have separate business cards.

00:23:15:15 - 00:23:37:24
Andrew Downs
But based on the business model, that's it. But then we started doing work for this electrical contractor called Angel Electrical, who knew that our skill set is something that he could sell? Yeah, Yeah, we worked for for Michelle's. Michelle's woolen, and I started working for rock. Rourkela. Rock like concrete. So. So the skill set was good. I mean, you just don't make this stuff up.

00:23:37:24 - 00:23:41:11
Andrew Downs
No sort of good quality which had been hammered into me.

00:23:41:13 - 00:23:41:25
Daniel Franco
And.

00:23:41:25 - 00:23:45:27
Andrew Downs
The ability to do good quality work. Yeah. Was was, was well, we and.

00:23:45:28 - 00:23:48:20
Daniel Franco
Not and not accepting poor quality.

00:23:48:22 - 00:24:05:06
Andrew Downs
And and doing the best you can. Absolutely right. So that that set the foundations for very good um entering into your own business. Yeah. So 91 was when we did the, the vendor lot. Yeah. 94 was when I left Bridgestone. So there's a good three years.

00:24:05:06 - 00:24:06:00
Daniel Franco
Of transition.

00:24:06:00 - 00:24:35:17
Andrew Downs
Transitioning, working on build a big shed on an old house that my, my mind, you know, was I ever going to leave that I have it in my head to leave Bridgestone? It's not really. Yeah, but the day come when cozy. The old my my mentor and nemesis who I was working for, he he basically caught up with me one day and I think I could still mark the spot and footprints of Bunnings now, which was like I could still find the spot.

00:24:35:17 - 00:24:57:20
Andrew Downs
And he pulled me out. And as he was, he was pretty, pretty harsh. And he said, You know, you're not working properly for me. Look at you, you've got all night doing all that other bullshit. Besides, I tell you what, you either stop that business, you stop sites and focus on your career here. Bridgestone's, or I'll accept your resignation immediately.

00:24:57:22 - 00:25:00:12
Andrew Downs
I said, Alright, I'm going. That was in.

00:25:00:15 - 00:25:02:23
Daniel Franco
March. And what did he say? When you said it?

00:25:02:24 - 00:25:09:18
Andrew Downs
Good. He said, Good. That's it. Like it was good. I said, good. You've made a bloody decision. What's the worst.

00:25:09:19 - 00:25:12:07
Daniel Franco
Thing together for 14 years? Was he at all upset?

00:25:12:07 - 00:25:13:13
Andrew Downs
No, no.

00:25:13:15 - 00:25:14:04
Daniel Franco
He was.

00:25:14:06 - 00:25:26:18
Andrew Downs
I think that's why he's such a formative guy in my life. Right? I think he knew that I had to have the ultimatum, otherwise it would have kept going, you know, because it's there's fear out there. You know, I've got a well-paid job.

00:25:26:18 - 00:25:27:09
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

00:25:27:11 - 00:25:41:06
Andrew Downs
And I'm probably working at 50% capacity, which is not good. Yeah, I'm working at night making money. Yeah. Building something. And I think he stepped in and said, you know, this has got to stop. Yeah, probably as much for Bridgestone's, to be honest with you. Yeah. And for me.

00:25:41:09 - 00:25:44:26
Daniel Franco
How much were you making at that time compared to your wage? Uh.

00:25:44:29 - 00:25:48:22
Andrew Downs
Yeah, I probably make him a wage like on 45 grand a year. Probably make another.

00:25:48:22 - 00:25:51:23
Daniel Franco
Four. So, you know, so you walk that and you had work straight away.

00:25:51:23 - 00:25:59:17
Andrew Downs
Well, all I did is got back to what I had before. Yeah, Yeah. So, but then I started to learn that any money you made a building.

00:25:59:17 - 00:26:00:11
Daniel Franco
A shed. Yeah.

00:26:00:12 - 00:26:01:06
Andrew Downs
Buying equipment.

00:26:01:06 - 00:26:02:01
Daniel Franco
Oh, it's all going back.

00:26:02:02 - 00:26:03:00
Andrew Downs
It's all gone back in. It's.

00:26:03:05 - 00:26:04:11
Daniel Franco
It's not going to the pub.

00:26:04:14 - 00:26:06:19
Andrew Downs
Not well it wasn't.

00:26:06:21 - 00:26:09:10
Daniel Franco
There's, well we put 10% of it.

00:26:09:12 - 00:26:32:02
Andrew Downs
So that was it. So that was an instant decision. He was very supportive, I think. Even proud. He'd probably never told me that. And you know, I still I've not united past life. I spoke at his funeral. Yeah, and that's it. Four weeks notice. And obviously you had one of the great, great, uh, celebrations of of someone leaving a firm.

00:26:32:02 - 00:26:54:12
Andrew Downs
We went to the court and cleaver with this cracking night, and I remember it was Friday night court and Cleaver, you know, we really celebrated hard and I'm up 6:00 the next morning, was around about the 1st of July, which worked out to be aligning with the financial year. And as it I was, I was having to put a control panel together for a job.

00:26:54:14 - 00:26:58:01
Andrew Downs
So it's just a fantastic it was a wonderful transition.

00:26:58:04 - 00:27:10:08
Daniel Franco
So Sage is what was a scuttle scooter, scallop, scallop and Grogan, Rogan and Grogan, what was his name?

00:27:10:12 - 00:27:11:05
Andrew Downs
Paul Hurley.

00:27:11:05 - 00:27:13:09
Daniel Franco
Paul Hurley. Is he still about the Pope?

00:27:13:09 - 00:27:31:02
Andrew Downs
Paul worked for the Australian Railway's Australian National Railways. I said to Paul, Um, do you want to and this is before that because well, I had I said, Paul, do you want to come on board with that sage? I'm leaving. And he said, To be honest with you. And I, um, he was doing really well in the railways.

00:27:31:05 - 00:27:40:28
Andrew Downs
Know Family Man as well, career. He said, Look, it's been a good right? So we split up a few dollars. It was no, you know, they're.

00:27:41:01 - 00:27:42:08
Daniel Franco
Still mates today.

00:27:42:10 - 00:27:48:03
Andrew Downs
I still see Paul every now and then. I haven't seen him for a little while. But yeah, I'd say not a problem with us at all.

00:27:48:05 - 00:27:52:25
Daniel Franco
The then the growth of Sage happens.

00:27:52:27 - 00:28:16:24
Andrew Downs
Well, now I'm in a backyard shed. Yeah. And, uh, I'd already employed my first employee before I left Bridgestone because in those days, the apprentices had to leave. Yeah. You know, once you do your four weeks, they for years. Sorry, they say you've got to go. So I laid called Jason Taylor. Very skilled. Yeah. Jason's already working in the back shed doing bits and pieces for you.

00:28:16:25 - 00:28:17:28
Daniel Franco
David left before.

00:28:17:28 - 00:28:18:07
Andrew Downs
I left.

00:28:18:13 - 00:28:20:07
Daniel Franco
So he was there by himself when.

00:28:20:09 - 00:28:25:12
Andrew Downs
He came in there to build and control cabinets. And that was fading. A little part time business, right?

00:28:25:14 - 00:28:27:18
Daniel Franco
Fabulous. I know Jason was a great man.

00:28:27:21 - 00:28:53:23
Andrew Downs
So Jason has basically employee number one of said, right, we've got a more serious now going to it's a business and we're in a shed 266 Seacombe Road Seacliff Park a beautiful shed by the way and two of us. And then it wasn't long before I had an opportunity to do some programing work, and that wasn't my forte.

00:28:53:24 - 00:29:10:00
Andrew Downs
Yeah. So I sent Jason on a mission to go down to Icy Hourglass to do some programing. I love what he did and then I've got no workers. So right or wrong, I went back to Bridgestone and talked to a guy called Sam Kuleana. I said, Hey, Sam, this is great. Working for yourself is so cool. I love it.

00:29:10:00 - 00:29:32:27
Andrew Downs
You know, it's freedom. Saying goes, Oh God, Here, I'll look at it. I said, All you gotta do is buy a van. My I'll pay you 20 bucks an hour on contract and off we go. Yeah. And he did. So then Sam joined and then I got an apprentice. And then Justin called you and Ron, who was doing some just work experience with me.

00:29:32:27 - 00:29:39:04
Andrew Downs
So, so quickly, the shed went from 1 to 2. We got to seven. Yeah, within the first year.

00:29:39:05 - 00:29:42:19
Daniel Franco
Who, who are the who are the this four that's still around.

00:29:42:19 - 00:29:48:13
Andrew Downs
So obviously Jason, Jason, Justin, Justin, Karl and same kuleana.

00:29:48:14 - 00:29:52:09
Daniel Franco
Same, same. So about stories when Niger and join.

00:29:52:12 - 00:29:56:08
Andrew Downs
I joined like a lighter in about 98.

00:29:56:11 - 00:30:00:19
Daniel Franco
Okay so current CEO Adrian so people have been with you a long long.

00:30:00:19 - 00:30:10:24
Andrew Downs
Yeah so there's so there's a four from the from the seven for a still with so you know holding senior roles and they've been there for the whole journey.

00:30:10:26 - 00:30:41:11
Daniel Franco
So I've done a bit of digging. Well it's not so much the ethnic the text a couple of the lads and said can you give me some curly questions to ask each of you guys? So this one is was I laughed when this one came through. Is it true that for the first ten years of the business you paid everyone as contractors so you didn't have to pay payroll tax?

00:30:41:12 - 00:30:59:12
Andrew Downs
Absolutely. Absolutely. I and everything else work cover. Hang on. There's a statute of limitations for seven years. I would say that. No, just the most logical way to do this absolutely. Was that as much as you could put it in the person's pocket. Yeah. You shouldn't give tax advice. But I said, listen to your out off your van.

00:30:59:12 - 00:31:01:20
Andrew Downs
You get a tax deduction, you can do this, you can do that.

00:31:01:20 - 00:31:14:20
Daniel Franco
So, yeah, that's brilliant. I love it. I'm is another question. So as part of your business strategy from day one, apparently it still operates today as well, is skunkworks.

00:31:14:22 - 00:31:17:16
Andrew Downs
Skunkworks. It's always, always believed in skunkworks.

00:31:17:19 - 00:31:20:06
Daniel Franco
Can you explain what this is?

00:31:20:08 - 00:31:35:21
Andrew Downs
Skunkworks is? It's a term that come from the military, but basically it's it's you do things without any control or power from from bureaucratic sources. So you've got this autonomy. Yeah. Just go and do it.

00:31:35:23 - 00:31:36:24
Daniel Franco
Just go and do it.

00:31:36:24 - 00:31:53:17
Andrew Downs
Get the job done. Yeah. And I still use the word skunkworks because that's sometimes some of the best ideas come from that hundred percent. So you're not limited by budgets. You're doing stuff that you maybe shouldn't. Yeah, but then suddenly this result pops up and it's either good, bad, or you you bring it in.

00:31:53:20 - 00:31:55:21
Daniel Franco
True entrepreneur is.

00:31:55:23 - 00:31:58:01
Andrew Downs
A different entrepreneur.

00:31:58:04 - 00:32:12:12
Daniel Franco
Now, this one's not related to the early days, but one of a must as an anti poor power supporter, you would rather see Port lose than Crows win. Is it true that you drove to Adelaide Oval at three quarter time to watch Port lose the game to Brisbane?

00:32:12:14 - 00:32:21:09
Andrew Downs
That is absolutely true and one of the greatest days only, only to be surpassed by the 2004 great grand final.

00:32:21:09 - 00:32:22:08
Daniel Franco
Yet as to more.

00:32:22:08 - 00:32:23:09
Andrew Downs
And more heavy yet.

00:32:23:11 - 00:32:24:12
Daniel Franco
And what one.

00:32:24:13 - 00:32:35:02
Andrew Downs
Hundred and 19 points. I thought that behind my door I went to the Sunday market. Can I get a photographic version of the front page of your paper and I've got it. I've got it framed.

00:32:35:02 - 00:32:35:25
Daniel Franco
That is hilarious.

00:32:35:25 - 00:32:36:14
Andrew Downs
It's behind a.

00:32:36:14 - 00:32:38:12
Daniel Franco
Door. Why the high.

00:32:38:15 - 00:32:44:07
Andrew Downs
On goes back to childhood memory. Yeah, Yeah. 1977. Yeah. Port versus Glenelg.

00:32:44:12 - 00:32:45:09
Daniel Franco
Yeah. Are you going? I'm a.

00:32:45:09 - 00:32:47:09
Andrew Downs
Kid. My brother's a port supporter then.

00:32:47:09 - 00:32:48:18
Daniel Franco
Yeah, you're base.

00:32:48:23 - 00:32:49:08
Andrew Downs
I'm a base.

00:32:49:08 - 00:32:50:08
Daniel Franco
Supporter. You're happy?

00:32:50:08 - 00:32:50:21
Andrew Downs
Of course.

00:32:50:21 - 00:32:51:07
Daniel Franco
Happy now?

00:32:51:07 - 00:33:11:10
Andrew Downs
Of course I was. I was there, but so we've lost. I've had to put up with all the shit from port supporters because I haven't changed and that was that built in. And I'll look at the many, many blokes I know in my era who have the same.

00:33:11:12 - 00:33:12:28
Daniel Franco
Aged post-traumatic stress.

00:33:13:04 - 00:33:18:28
Andrew Downs
From its peers today, wherever it is, Port Adelaide, it at 12. I'm done.

00:33:18:29 - 00:33:22:15
Daniel Franco
Not, not hate, hate I strong words.

00:33:22:15 - 00:33:35:21
Andrew Downs
A strong it's a bad word, but you know, it just relives that memory. I just can't stand the bastards. And I look, I've known a lot of people from port board and I know people from they're all pleasant people. Yeah. Know I.

00:33:35:21 - 00:33:36:08
Daniel Franco
Know the pain of.

00:33:36:09 - 00:33:50:02
Andrew Downs
My club, the management team, everybody, all of our border port supporters. But. But it's just I'd rather say I'd rather see Port Lose and Crows win this weekend. And there's this sad, sad indictment.

00:33:50:03 - 00:34:05:06
Daniel Franco
That is very, very funny. So at some point, going back to the all the other lads have been, they're still with you today. I mean they're forever and a day, which just shows the loyalty. Adrian Phi comes along, he ends up being. Yeah.

00:34:05:09 - 00:34:15:16
Andrew Downs
Yeah. Well there's a number of them. Paul Johnson, Ally, Clare, Paul, Mark, Adrian Phi, these guys have come on from other, from other jobs that by the way, we're out of the shit at that time.

00:34:15:16 - 00:34:17:07
Daniel Franco
Yeah. Okay. So you moved out of that.

00:34:17:12 - 00:34:23:13
Andrew Downs
So the shed story was seven people were banging and crashing till midnight. Yeah, we're up at five. What a.

00:34:23:13 - 00:34:24:12
Daniel Franco
Neighbors thing. Well, and.

00:34:24:12 - 00:34:25:29
Andrew Downs
That's. They got me into the game, so that.

00:34:26:00 - 00:34:28:10
Daniel Franco
Well, you had to get out. Well.

00:34:28:13 - 00:34:33:00
Andrew Downs
First lesson in life is, is you should read stuff that you sent for.

00:34:33:00 - 00:34:34:07
Daniel Franco
Yes.

00:34:34:09 - 00:34:43:06
Andrew Downs
So I just kept grabbing the letter and just throw it in the bin. It's true. I just can't believe I did this. So I'm getting these notices in that from the council. I'm just ripping them off and put them in the bin.

00:34:43:08 - 00:34:44:10
Daniel Franco
Not not even reading them.

00:34:44:14 - 00:35:11:20
Andrew Downs
Not just I thought something was bubbling away about that boy. I'm too busy to argue in Alaska. And then we picked up a job in 1995. Early we picked up a job in a brewery in Darwin, You know, for this Indian Marlborough. Yeah. So with so I'm in Darwin up there putting in bottling line stuff for the brewery and my then partner, Amy said, Look, we've just been served.

00:35:11:20 - 00:35:30:02
Andrew Downs
Something looks quite official, someone's knocked on the front door and handed or something. Oh and I said, well you better open up. And it said, you have been summonsed to court on such and such a date for failure to do this and this. And I said, Shit, that does sound a bit more serious. So I rang my then accountant Bernie.

00:35:30:02 - 00:35:46:17
Andrew Downs
I said, Bernie, I've got this. I mean, what do I do? He says, Mate, you need a lawyer. Lawyer where I'm going to get a lawyer from. I don't I don't know a lawyer because I went to school with a guy called David Johnson, give him a call. So I got on to David Johnson and I'll still never I'll never forget that conversation.

00:35:46:17 - 00:36:03:28
Andrew Downs
I said, Excuse me, my name's Andrew. Dancing. I David, I've just been handed some documents. And he goes, Well, and he had a funny voice, right? He got, huh? Send them to me now. And I said, I mean, get a courier, get these things up to David Johnson's office.

00:36:03:28 - 00:36:07:00
Daniel Franco
It's a typical. Is that one? Yeah.

00:36:07:02 - 00:36:22:25
Andrew Downs
There's such a great story. He and he, like he said, he brings me back. You are in big trouble. Like, really big trouble. They're going to shut you down. You. You're done. You're finished. So when are we in court? He said next.

00:36:22:25 - 00:36:24:14
Daniel Franco
Week. Oh.

00:36:24:17 - 00:36:46:00
Andrew Downs
Shit. He said, Get your ass on a plane and get down here. And then I met David at the old house there in the shade, and he's strutting around like that. He, General Patton, he goes, Mm hmm. Okay. Why did you ignore all the notices? I said, Oh, and I was busy. But he flat out guys, huh? All right, we've got to go to the Mores building.

00:36:46:03 - 00:36:56:14
Andrew Downs
We've got a commissioner and we roll up on a given day. So I've, I, I really know of stuffed up, but like, it score. I'm done here.

00:36:56:14 - 00:36:57:11
Daniel Franco
It's between your legs.

00:36:57:11 - 00:37:29:29
Andrew Downs
And tray story. I believe if I could get some video footage of my life, I wanted this because this was the castle. This is the castle. Repeated. And there's me. There's me. And I later ended up calling David Johnson, Bulldog Johnson. He was so aggressive, but in a good way for this. David, myself. And we looked the other side of the table and there's like ten from the Brighton Council lawyers and Cross knows what they're and, and they go and they're banging on about how I've ignored all the notices.

00:37:29:29 - 00:37:52:24
Andrew Downs
And this is just, you know, the judge or commissioner, and this is just a blatant disregard for the law and everything else. And Bulldog sat back and stepped back and and it was that was Bulldogs chance to have a go at these guys. This is where the castle comes in wrong. And he just stood up and he pointed at me he said shame, shame on all of you.

00:37:52:24 - 00:38:17:26
Andrew Downs
Look at you, look at you in your suits, sitting there with well-paid jobs. This young fella here giving it a go, employing people, making it surely could have approached him. You could have done something right. You could have done it. Now you've got to resort to this bloody legal just to just to kill off a great business. And you know, and he just went on, on it was just beautiful.

00:38:17:27 - 00:38:18:11
Andrew Downs
Yeah.

00:38:18:13 - 00:38:20:01
Daniel Franco
Yeah. It could have. It's the constitution, not.

00:38:20:01 - 00:38:21:10
Andrew Downs
The house, the home.

00:38:21:13 - 00:38:23:04
Daniel Franco
And all this stuff.

00:38:23:06 - 00:38:44:28
Andrew Downs
So the commissioner, he just said, look, enough's enough. And he asked me, he said, What? What do you think? I said, look, I've, I've really messed it up. I'm sorry. Yep. I had my time again. I would have tried to do something different, but we're here. He said, I'll tell you what, I'm going to give you one month to find a new premises.

00:38:44:28 - 00:38:54:00
Andrew Downs
You need to come back to the court, submit that you've got a lease for a new premises, and I'm going to later operate Eddie Shed for another a month.

00:38:54:03 - 00:38:54:29
Daniel Franco
At all hours or an.

00:38:55:03 - 00:39:06:27
Andrew Downs
Hour and I suppose probably And try not to be noisy for I don't remember that well that was a massive loss for the Brighton Council guys and the, and the legal team. Excuse me. Whatever. They just this is ridiculous. This is out.

00:39:06:27 - 00:39:08:04
Daniel Franco
So they were trying to shut you down.

00:39:08:07 - 00:39:16:11
Andrew Downs
But yeah, immediately that immediately in that in that session they wanted cease and desist, whatever you call it that day.

00:39:16:13 - 00:39:17:13
Daniel Franco
How many letters that come your.

00:39:17:13 - 00:39:40:23
Andrew Downs
Way all day. I just know that big thick one eventually got me wrong and, and, and David got up and we're high fiving. I think we had a hug. These guys are pissed off at big hug, and then we just went straight down. Good. Just straight. Because most buildings is near Hilton, and we just went into the first Chinese restaurant with Van and go bloody blind drunk and celebrated the greatest.

00:39:40:23 - 00:39:44:13
Andrew Downs
When did you see their faces? Did you see their faces?

00:39:44:15 - 00:39:45:04
Daniel Franco
That's brilliant.

00:39:45:04 - 00:39:47:13
Andrew Downs
We won, you know, and it was so cool.

00:39:47:15 - 00:39:49:27
Daniel Franco
Was that even his legal expertise.

00:39:49:29 - 00:39:51:06
Andrew Downs
His barrister, commissioner.

00:39:51:08 - 00:39:53:00
Daniel Franco
Nobody in that business space?

00:39:53:02 - 00:39:54:01
Andrew Downs
Yeah, he was a businessman.

00:39:54:02 - 00:39:55:20
Daniel Franco
He could have been a family lawyer. If not.

00:39:55:20 - 00:40:18:13
Andrew Downs
Well, I could have got a dentist tonight. I didn't. I got the buddy and David was. He just loved the victory. And and. And then we became quite good friends. And he then helped me as a business mentor. So, you know, through my story, there's always an event that leads you to a relationship. Yeah. That will lead you to a to a, you know, And he, he actually become like an interim chair of Sage.

00:40:18:16 - 00:40:19:28
Andrew Downs
Brilliant in the early days.

00:40:19:28 - 00:40:23:17
Daniel Franco
So where to there. And so you found you found a place you go.

00:40:23:17 - 00:40:45:23
Andrew Downs
Yeah. I had like Melrose Park, uh, Ben Bennett Avenue, Mirwais Park. But is where your whole philosophy comes unstuck, Right? I got free range in a shed. I'm flat out. I've got low costs, you know, And then I have to look at what the rent costs. Yeah, it was like 35 grand or something. Oh, shit. This is overheads.

00:40:45:27 - 00:41:07:08
Andrew Downs
So now I'm getting the school of tough knocks. Yeah, Coming, hitting me. Well, now I've got this massive rent bill so you don't have to even work harder. And then I had to get a bloody bookkeeper. And you know what I'm saying? It started the whole journey of. Yeah, I've, I've dodged, you know, I was trying to do this under the radar, a backyard, a business which I loved.

00:41:07:10 - 00:41:11:12
Andrew Downs
Now I'm actually having to stand up as a proper as a as a proper business.

00:41:11:14 - 00:41:20:24
Daniel Franco
And you're putting your big boy pants on. So do you at what point do you realize, actually, I could now that I'm here, I could keep growing it? What does that look like?

00:41:20:25 - 00:41:29:23
Andrew Downs
Premises of pretty big, you know. And I knew I paid a lot of money and I enjoy electrical. They'd come in and shade premises. It's the guys that we joined with, you know, partnering.

00:41:30:00 - 00:41:31:09
Daniel Franco
Subleasing and.

00:41:31:12 - 00:41:48:27
Andrew Downs
Subleased a bit. And it was game on then it was game on. So I've got a lawyer. Yeah, still an accountant now. Got a big bloody premises. You're professional firm and I think, you know, we went from seven people to 14. I still remember our revenues going 1 million in the first year from the back. Shit. Then it was two then to.

00:41:49:03 - 00:41:50:28
Daniel Franco
Really a million out of the back shit.

00:41:50:28 - 00:41:53:24
Andrew Downs
Million out of the back shed. Then it was to two points.

00:41:53:24 - 00:41:57:02
Daniel Franco
Is that including all the how or is that just not it.

00:41:57:02 - 00:41:58:10
Andrew Downs
That's in the hard way. Yeah It's.

00:41:58:10 - 00:42:00:01
Daniel Franco
Gross. Yeah, I agree with you.

00:42:00:04 - 00:42:15:16
Andrew Downs
And that was the in those early days, we were flying 5.27, nine, 11, 15, 20. But with that it's just increases of people. So seven's gone to 14, it's gone to 30 gone to At.

00:42:15:17 - 00:42:19:08
Daniel Franco
What point did you look at pricing all the above? Did you.

00:42:19:10 - 00:42:22:28
Andrew Downs
Eventually what David Johnson was there to help us set up a bit of an advisory.

00:42:22:28 - 00:42:23:14
Daniel Franco
Board yet.

00:42:23:15 - 00:42:34:00
Andrew Downs
To work out that, you know, what's our profitability, which was terrible. I was a I was a classic entrepreneur wouldn't listen reinvestment Yeah runs in on cash yeah.

00:42:34:02 - 00:42:34:27
Daniel Franco
Um.

00:42:34:29 - 00:42:41:22
Andrew Downs
Yeah totally no knowledge of business in terms of strategy finance.

00:42:41:24 - 00:42:46:28
Daniel Franco
I was it the first six seven years that you didn't have a strategy. It was just to.

00:42:46:29 - 00:42:49:25
Andrew Downs
Work flat out and do a great job. Yeah.

00:42:49:27 - 00:42:51:16
Daniel Franco
And were profits good, though?

00:42:51:18 - 00:42:57:05
Andrew Downs
Well, our gross profit was probably okay, but we were just growing at such a rapid clip, we would spending everything.

00:42:57:05 - 00:42:57:26
Daniel Franco
Yeah. Okay.

00:42:57:28 - 00:42:58:20
Andrew Downs
So if I look.

00:42:58:20 - 00:43:00:08
Daniel Franco
Back, financial management wasn't that to.

00:43:00:08 - 00:43:06:22
Andrew Downs
Be honest with you? You know, we probably should have gone broke. Yeah, probably on multiple occasions, but we didn't. And that was because well.

00:43:06:23 - 00:43:07:19
Daniel Franco
Because the work was there.

00:43:07:19 - 00:43:30:10
Andrew Downs
The work was there, and, and the people were just incredible. And we worked as a team and, you know, and so it was about it was like everything we did was to achieve greatness and automation. It wasn't about profit, it was about winning, and it was about being the best we could be. And my biggest competitor, unbelievable. I'd been in business for 26 years.

00:43:30:10 - 00:43:34:13
Andrew Downs
They were quite I treated them a bit like Port Adelaide.

00:43:34:15 - 00:43:35:22
Daniel Franco
What was that? What was the business?

00:43:35:24 - 00:43:57:19
Andrew Downs
Graphic Electronic Industries. And I'd been in business for 26 years and I just went from like a vicious dog and I would just every job that they beat, we underbid it. We just like a marauding pack of dogs, right? And they rolled over. They, they tipped themselves into an involuntary, voluntary administration in. 1999. So I got my first scalp.

00:43:57:27 - 00:43:58:25
Andrew Downs
It was like a corporate.

00:43:59:03 - 00:44:00:27
Daniel Franco
High fiving into.

00:44:00:29 - 00:44:06:19
Andrew Downs
David Johnson with me, Bulldog. By then we called him Bulldog. He was instrumental, so we bought the business.

00:44:06:21 - 00:44:09:02
Daniel Franco
Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So your biggest competitor and.

00:44:09:09 - 00:44:23:23
Andrew Downs
Biggest competitor, most successful in South Australia, There's no doubt about that. And whatever they did behind the scenes didn't work. We ended up buying the phone number and the business name for 55 grand or something and everyone the work, they hated me, so I won joined except for one person.

00:44:24:00 - 00:44:26:24
Daniel Franco
The rest is history. But you got all the kit and got.

00:44:26:25 - 00:44:33:25
Andrew Downs
All there, every job, file, the drawings, the customer base, the phone number, of course, the business name.

00:44:33:25 - 00:44:36:23
Daniel Franco
You needed to find the find the people to do the work.

00:44:36:23 - 00:44:43:09
Andrew Downs
That's right. And no one from that firm would join us except for one guy called Sam, and he brought along you to us. So we got at the end of the day.

00:44:43:11 - 00:44:50:21
Daniel Franco
It was What year was that? 94 inches 1999. So in five years you bought used Chunk your biggest competitor and you'd bought them in.

00:44:50:24 - 00:44:56:03
Andrew Downs
Absolute fact, I've still got it somewhere. I've got the I got the business certificate of their name.

00:44:56:05 - 00:44:57:22
Daniel Franco
Did you know what you're doing at that point?

00:44:57:22 - 00:45:00:26
Andrew Downs
I mean, once again this is where you get a good mentor. David Johnson Yeah.

00:45:00:29 - 00:45:01:09
Daniel Franco
And you.

00:45:01:09 - 00:45:03:28
Andrew Downs
Live it was living his entrepreneurial life through.

00:45:04:00 - 00:45:04:19
Daniel Franco
Here.

00:45:04:22 - 00:45:05:10
Andrew Downs
You know, And he's.

00:45:05:15 - 00:45:05:26
Daniel Franco
Out there right.

00:45:05:27 - 00:45:07:04
Andrew Downs
Now is now that.

00:45:07:06 - 00:45:07:12
Daniel Franco
He's.

00:45:07:12 - 00:45:24:25
Andrew Downs
Now the chairman of the Board of of Thing or interim chairman, the board of the four key shareholders in those days was, you know Jason same Paul Markovic and Adrian Faye. So they'd already become the glue. Yeah, they were the lieutenants. Yeah. So they could sit.

00:45:24:25 - 00:45:26:09
Daniel Franco
And they were boring.

00:45:26:12 - 00:45:38:29
Andrew Downs
It was Bodo Johnson said, Hey, we're going to create a public unlisted company. Why don't we create some shares? We needed cash. These guys go home and talk to their wives in mortgage, their houses to put money away or.

00:45:38:29 - 00:45:41:12
Daniel Franco
Mortgage the house just let them do in your vision.

00:45:41:17 - 00:45:44:07
Andrew Downs
Well, trust or not trust. Yep, I did.

00:45:44:08 - 00:45:44:18
Daniel Franco
Just.

00:45:44:24 - 00:45:56:04
Andrew Downs
One. And I was very generous. I think the share valuation was like, I lift my finger and depending on the on the on the breeze that day, I come up with a number and, uh, it's pretty good number.

00:45:56:06 - 00:45:58:06
Daniel Franco
You had an accountant.

00:45:58:08 - 00:46:05:06
Andrew Downs
I think got sacked and the tax department, which I is another story I had to switch accounts.

00:46:05:09 - 00:46:05:26
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

00:46:06:02 - 00:46:11:11
Andrew Downs
The tax write off we went and that's when you have great relationship with Grant Thornton. Started at about two.

00:46:11:14 - 00:46:11:26
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

00:46:11:28 - 00:46:15:10
Andrew Downs
Yeah. I wasn't there I was in the proverbial over some.

00:46:15:12 - 00:46:24:10
Daniel Franco
That's one thing I think all entrepreneurs overlook is the eating of making money and making money. Should I get to give half of back? Really? No.

00:46:24:11 - 00:46:43:03
Andrew Downs
Yeah, that's right. But look, it always comes down to where do you get the advice? Yeah, who are you listening to? And once I, you know, I feel great relationships over some of these things, but yeah, I was, I was seriously in strife with the ATO over some dodgy superannuation buddy scheme, Right. Yeah. But we fixed it all up.

00:46:43:06 - 00:46:47:02
Daniel Franco
Yeah. And that's because you weren't opening your letters again. Oh, no, no, no, no.

00:46:47:04 - 00:47:08:07
Andrew Downs
This time I opened the letters and I helped, you know, I will Marriot from cc K in those days he helped me out and then we changed accountants to Grant Thornton, which should still got today. So what happens is through that I suppose the ignorance, but you slowly start to, to work stuff out. You need a good accountant.

00:47:08:08 - 00:47:27:19
Andrew Downs
Yeah. That's, that's going to play by the rules. You need a good lawyer. Yeah. You have, have even an advisory board to help you guide guidance. You've got to start bringing processes and systems and that's the journey. Yeah. Some don't make it. I feel sorry for the little guys that don't mind. Yeah, we probably statistically shouldn't have made it.

00:47:27:19 - 00:47:56:15
Andrew Downs
Yep. But once you do work out what's going on, you just build. Well, there's two things. You build the best advisors, but you also bring the best people you can find that you know that complement your weaknesses. Yeah, and that was been a philosophy from really from Brexit on was was that just so you know in this story we're at 2000, I've got four new shareholders, we've got a little advisory board we're probably hitting around about.

00:47:56:18 - 00:48:05:19
Andrew Downs
I don't I must be about 17 million by then or something and 35 staff. I just remember some of those lists numbers. Yeah, Yeah. But we're off and we.

00:48:05:21 - 00:48:21:07
Daniel Franco
And what point did you go Actually this is, this is something we can scale like there's I understand it's not just one day, right? But did you ever go did you ever think, should I take this thing Australia wide? I could take this thing globally?

00:48:21:13 - 00:48:41:14
Andrew Downs
Probably not. Probably not. There is a turning point and I will talk about that in a minute in 2002. But I was having fun. We were making enough money, but we were winning. And I think there's a great there's a great sport analogy or whatever, you know, that's where Port Adelaide were. Good. They won a lot of premierships.

00:48:41:14 - 00:48:49:10
Andrew Downs
We're winning premiership year after year because we were growing, we were knocking our competitors around and we were making a name for ourselves. Yeah, and we just kept.

00:48:49:10 - 00:48:50:10
Daniel Franco
Doing good quality work.

00:48:50:10 - 00:49:10:04
Andrew Downs
But always there's one thing we never, ever, ever, ever compromised was quality. Unfortunately, you're doing it a probably lower price too, to get the market. Yeah. So, yeah, you know, if I had my time again, you wouldn't do it that way. But that was how we did it. Mm. Excellent quality. Best in class.

00:49:10:06 - 00:49:19:12
Daniel Franco
And you're saying now you're 700 plus people turn it on, you know, projected and you just wouldn't do it the same way.

00:49:19:15 - 00:49:27:08
Andrew Downs
No. Because I think you've got to learn from your past. Yeah. Uh, there's a very powerful thing in business learning to say no.

00:49:27:10 - 00:49:28:21
Daniel Franco
Yeah, right.

00:49:28:24 - 00:49:29:29
Andrew Downs
That we always said yes.

00:49:30:00 - 00:49:30:20
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

00:49:30:22 - 00:49:36:11
Andrew Downs
And I think after 30 years in business, there's more nos. Mm. You just don't keep that range.

00:49:36:13 - 00:49:42:07
Daniel Franco
I think that that's all based on circumstance, right. Like.

00:49:42:09 - 00:49:43:20
Andrew Downs
I mean it's in hindsight.

00:49:43:23 - 00:49:48:21
Daniel Franco
The Richard Branson inquiry to say yes to everything and then figure it out later. And you do that in your early part.

00:49:48:21 - 00:50:07:26
Andrew Downs
It's exactly what we did that Yes. To everything. You get some bloody shitty customers along the way and you get taken here and there. But the the overriding thing was positive and you picked up some great customers we still got today, you know, companies like Treasury Wines and people like that are still with us from the days of Southcorp.

00:50:07:28 - 00:50:24:27
Andrew Downs
You've got a situation where the automotive industry closed in Australia. And so, you know, if we didn't get out of it, if we didn't diversify early, we wouldn't have had a business. If we'd stuck to automotive. So there's a bit of you make your own luck. Yeah. How do you work? Lucky you get that type of thing. Yeah.

00:50:25:02 - 00:50:44:29
Andrew Downs
So I think it was in 2003 or four that we decided to set up in Melbourne. That was harder than we thought and there's a long story there. But if I can go back to 2002, David Johnson, who used to work and he used to up at night thinking about sites and I love him for that and he goes, Andrew, I'm not going to believe it.

00:50:44:29 - 00:51:07:11
Andrew Downs
There's this thing in America called the control system Integrators associate. And I said, Really? Because I was surprised as well. He said, That's that's the industry you're in. And they're having a conference in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina. And I said, Well, shit, I better go. So just hopped on a plane, went to the US, didn't have any idea what Myrtle Beach would even be like.

00:51:07:14 - 00:51:25:28
Andrew Downs
I thought it was like a little country town, actually, like the Gold Coast got to got to this conference and there's 90 companies just like Sage. I can't believe it. And what I worked out was the size we were. Then we set in like the top 5% of the US companies.

00:51:25:28 - 00:51:26:24
Daniel Franco
Yeah. Wow.

00:51:26:26 - 00:51:51:27
Andrew Downs
And then I go on to become, you know, we haven't missed a conference, you know, the 600 members now, but that, that was a big turning point me to say, hang on, Adelaide is not a backwater. We're not just a small, insignificant firm, even by a US standard. Yeah, that gives us confidence to say we can really, because that was a turning point for me.

00:51:51:28 - 00:51:53:27
Andrew Downs
Yeah, we can make a difference.

00:51:53:27 - 00:51:54:28
Daniel Franco
Yeah, absolutely.

00:51:54:28 - 00:52:15:22
Andrew Downs
And, and we benchmarked so we stuck with it. So yeah, so I became friends with companies and I can't emphasize enough how Australian companies don't seem to get out of their own backyard and look elsewhere at the globe. MM So give us confidence. And that was it.

00:52:15:25 - 00:52:35:16
Daniel Franco
Yeah. I was going to ask this question about that, the experience that you get, and then you've done Harvard courses and obviously you've done a lot later, but you've spent time around the world looking and will see suggestions of those who can actually afford to do that.

00:52:35:19 - 00:52:56:25
Andrew Downs
Well, I'd probably go back to the David Johnson example, find a good mentor. And you know, you talk before one seven plus boards. The boards I love working with the most, they are the the smaller companies that are just getting started. Yeah. So, you know, you can provide guidance, you can provide, you know, so, so what I've learned in my life I can give back.

00:52:56:28 - 00:53:18:01
Andrew Downs
Yeah. And I'm just it just makes me it's just it's my happy place is helping people in that in that regard. So my advice to those people is find an Andrew Downes find find a Daniel find find someone who's been there, done that and they're going to be in there in their later years. Yeah, because there's lots of bloody gray hairs out there that probably are under-utilised.

00:53:18:07 - 00:53:21:25
Andrew Downs
Mm. To come in and say well how did you do things. What happened.

00:53:21:27 - 00:53:37:26
Daniel Franco
Yeah. Hundred percent. You know, abso, I think the most beautiful thing about this podcast is the quality of people that I get to connect with on a week to week basis and I can just pick their brain. So you're hundred percent right. Find the find yourself good people to hang around and and learn from.

00:53:37:26 - 00:53:39:24
Andrew Downs
Only as good as the people that you employ or think.

00:53:39:26 - 00:54:11:15
Daniel Franco
Well, there is actually a statistic is that your average wage is equivalent of the five people is an average salary of the five people that you hang around. So if you total up all their their wages, your yours is there is a statistic that proves that to be true. I'm so you get a bunch of guys bunch of team a big team growing making lots of money traveling the world things are happening Yep you're not going off supply you're not going to have competitors gone.

00:54:11:18 - 00:54:18:14
Daniel Franco
Yeah you're winning premierships. What is the what is the next phase. Look at some point you think, right?

00:54:18:14 - 00:54:36:09
Andrew Downs
No, no, no. We hit a we hit a big speed bump. So 2003 would we going into Victoria. That was, that was harder than we thought. We had to take one of our pull my quick you know, one of the, one of the main shareholders he basically uh, you know, you got to think back to the sacrifice he made.

00:54:36:09 - 00:54:57:01
Andrew Downs
He sold his beautiful home here in Whiteville. Yeah. Goes to Victoria, gets a house there and sets up the Melbourne office. And he's still there today. But what I'm saying is these are the because I take the culture with him and the passion and the drive. So yeah, it's nothing to do with me, it's to do with the people that want to see you succeed as well.

00:54:57:03 - 00:55:24:21
Andrew Downs
And now I think Melbourne office is bigger than the Adelaide one too, but so yes, we kept growing, we'd acquired other little businesses and bits and pieces but, but Adrian Fi, who had come from another, you know, quite successful larger company, he had strong management capability and you know, you'd have to ask Adrian in a podcast one day why he would join a ram shackle that he joined.

00:55:24:27 - 00:55:51:15
Andrew Downs
Excite Yeah, but he did. And he actually took a demotion from his previous job to be like the beady guy. Okay, he's running around with Beady, with traveling buddy Australia, looking at wineries and having a great time. But I worked out that, you know what, Adrian and I, we're very good friends and and still to this day. But two distinct differences in our in our qualities of of management.

00:55:51:15 - 00:55:58:15
Andrew Downs
Yeah I'm big picture height detail agents very good at detail and process.

00:55:58:15 - 00:55:59:04
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

00:55:59:06 - 00:56:16:25
Andrew Downs
And I just I just woke up one day it was two seven. I said, do you know what I hate being. See because I was, I was a self-imposed CEO and I hate this but I didn't, you'd be really good at it. So I said, Why don't you become the CEO? I'll become the managing director, and off we go.

00:56:16:27 - 00:56:25:02
Andrew Downs
Brilliant. And he said, Yep, I mean, and today agents, the managing director and CEO. And so but that's what happened.

00:56:25:05 - 00:56:32:27
Daniel Franco
Were you ever were you ever concerned having a hanging handing over the reins?

00:56:33:00 - 00:56:52:23
Andrew Downs
See, this all comes down to the quality of people. Yeah, there'd be case studies after case studies where that had blown up in someone's face or even even ringing shareholders. Yeah, correct. I've heard so many horrible stories about that. So comes down to quality of people, I suppose. Trust, I suppose, you know, just just run with your gut.

00:56:52:23 - 00:56:54:00
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

00:56:54:02 - 00:57:15:22
Andrew Downs
So agents performed incredibly well. So where do we hit Speed Bump, if I can go to that is 2000. Yeah. So poor old age. He always says my timing is incredible. Yeah. When you hand over the reins because we've just got into this global financial, it's, it's, it was for a business like side at our at our point in time it was the perfect storm.

00:57:15:26 - 00:57:31:17
Andrew Downs
Yeah. It was black October. I mean the world was in a spiral, there's no doubt about that. And even your good customers and most solid customers had stopped placing orders for a couple of weeks. I mean, basically you're done. Mm.

00:57:31:19 - 00:57:32:19
Daniel Franco
Nice. You live in that.

00:57:32:24 - 00:57:58:27
Andrew Downs
No thanks to the ANZ Bank. Yeah, but they just tipped us straight from relationship banking into bad bank. Yeah. And then we had a investigative, investigative audit done on us and, and that was all about live or die. I mean whatever the invoice the good of audit showed up was, whether you got support from the bank or it was as simple as that and you had to pay to get it done.

00:57:58:29 - 00:58:11:02
Andrew Downs
So you got no money by 70 grand and that's it. So, um, and that's where we met Bruce Carter, who I'm very happy to say is our current chair. Yeah, a long story there, but it was Bruce's firm that come in and did the audit.

00:58:11:04 - 00:58:11:13
Daniel Franco
Okay.

00:58:11:20 - 00:58:25:00
Andrew Downs
And when you work and I look, that's why I feel for a lot of businesses that do maybe have a, a situation where it's terminal it come down to that for us it was a meeting on a given day.

00:58:25:02 - 00:58:25:12
Daniel Franco
A break.

00:58:25:18 - 00:58:37:03
Andrew Downs
Make or break shareholders are sitting there Bruce's the other end of the table and it's a Julius Caesar moment. It is it's it's feed him to the lines or.

00:58:37:07 - 00:58:38:05
Daniel Franco
Yeah, thumbs up Thumbs.

00:58:38:10 - 00:58:40:15
Andrew Downs
Up It was it's I'll never forget it never.

00:58:40:15 - 00:58:42:07
Daniel Franco
Forget And you got the thumbs up.

00:58:42:09 - 00:59:05:22
Andrew Downs
We did but look you just have to understand that's that's a point in time where it's all over. Yeah, it's done. Yes. Tipped into administration, liquidation. Everything you work for. And I vowed and declared it like when I fucked up. I said that school. Yep. I hadn't declared. I'll never take the company to that level again. Yeah. We had.

00:59:05:24 - 00:59:26:10
Andrew Downs
And it's the bank's faults, not their fault. They just in those days they give you too much debt. Debts, Good debts, Good. No worries. Off you go. That's good. Then they have this crisis. They suddenly reverse all their policies. That's bad. So we restructured. We paid all the debt down, got A new bank. Yeah. And off we go again.

00:59:26:12 - 00:59:36:01
Andrew Downs
That's what was was enough. The stress and the. And the and just had a know you've watching your your life's work flash before your eyes.

00:59:36:01 - 00:59:49:14
Daniel Franco
Yeah I can I can feel the pain. Right. It is, it is the biggest fear of any any entrepreneur the very thing that you've created is about to die. What was it like when you got the thumb up?

00:59:49:16 - 00:59:56:04
Andrew Downs
Oh, well, you know, I mean, it wasn't just. It was elation and relief, but it was all to say, okay, what's.

00:59:56:04 - 00:59:58:09
Daniel Franco
Next? Yeah, what do I need to do.

00:59:58:12 - 01:00:22:28
Andrew Downs
To pay down debt. Mm. With like 5 million debt. Mm. There's a program you got to pay down debt. You got to stop focusing on profitability. You know, it was a it's just as hard as it was. It also changed this as a company. Yeah. You know. Yeah. You couldn't be as cavalier with the, with the entrepreneurism and you know the old we talked about skunkworks and black ops.

01:00:23:01 - 01:00:33:12
Andrew Downs
You just had to pull up on some of that stuff and be more accountable, more reporting. You've got your bank in the business. Bad bank means you've got to monthly meetings. You you, you know. Yeah.

01:00:33:15 - 01:00:36:13
Daniel Franco
Yeah. What does that do in your personal health.

01:00:36:16 - 01:00:48:23
Andrew Downs
Now is that, you know, I handled that okay And I've got a theory there. When you've got guys in trenches with you. Yeah, it just takes a lot of that pain away. So it wasn't just me. It was me and the other shell.

01:00:48:24 - 01:00:55:02
Daniel Franco
Yeah, actually, I heard you. I heard you have a motto on that. When other people's money is involved.

01:00:55:05 - 01:01:14:18
Andrew Downs
I got it. That's so true. And, yeah, I think you only know the true character of a person in a situation when their money's involved. So you can have a conversation with someone with the money involved. They'll have an opinion about this or that. I know that now you put your heart in into that decision.

01:01:14:18 - 01:01:15:29
Daniel Franco
Your life savings.

01:01:16:01 - 01:01:18:00
Andrew Downs
And you watch that change.

01:01:18:07 - 01:01:19:01
Daniel Franco
Person, change their.

01:01:19:06 - 01:01:34:28
Andrew Downs
First change. Oh, now I'm out. This is bullshit. You know, Look what you've done. You've destroyed my life. Those guys never did. We all stuck together. And, you know, I think hopefully we've made a lot of wealth for those shareholders that stuck with us. Mm.

01:01:35:01 - 01:01:52:20
Daniel Franco
So at what point do you feel like it was at Adrian's introduction to see that you felt like alright, and then obviously this GFC, which was a pivotal point, 2008, is that when you go right, it's just all professional for me strategy, the whole works.

01:01:52:23 - 01:02:06:09
Andrew Downs
Probably more so, more structure. Yeah, of course we go off and set up a whole pile of things that don't work like Sage Capital and Sage didactic and you know, there's still some entrepreneurial building.

01:02:06:09 - 01:02:08:06
Daniel Franco
A Yeah, a business, yeah.

01:02:08:09 - 01:02:31:20
Andrew Downs
But, but some of that's worked out too. MM Yeah. So, you know, I think, I think the balancing of risk was that was the lesson. Yeah. Don't sell the farm, don't ever get to the point where you might make bad decisions, but hopefully that decision just doesn't tip you over at risk is no worried me you know never just don't want to lose the farm not now.

01:02:31:23 - 01:02:42:14
Daniel Franco
Well I guess it's probably topical given the fact that there's this talk of this potential recession coming now, What's your advice, having gone through something and almost hitting the wall?

01:02:42:17 - 01:03:05:06
Andrew Downs
Well, you know, I look back at COVID, We didn't know what was going to happen in COVID and we just went onto a war footing. We had everything ready. We you know, we looked at reduction of people's senior guys. Everyone chipped in ready for the storm. And it didn't really happen over actually ended up okay. Yeah, Um, we'd be in the same mine now what's going to happen.

01:03:05:06 - 01:03:27:03
Andrew Downs
But with, you know, our business is now focused a lot on critical infrastructure, things like that. So we haven't seen a downturn yet and I suppose we've got to. Confident. Doesn't mean we're not cautious. Yeah, look, you know, looking at cash, looking at money, looking at people, I think I think we're still looking for 40 people nationally. So it's not like we've stopped employing that.

01:03:27:06 - 01:03:39:09
Andrew Downs
But one eye on the economy. You've still got to do your job. Yeah, if you're winning work, it would be stupid to sort of like go into your shell and not attack the work.

01:03:39:09 - 01:03:50:03
Daniel Franco
So now you've got you've got a very intelligent human being in your in your team right now. Becky Humble, who does believe that there is a recession coming in the next 12 to 24 months.

01:03:50:04 - 01:03:54:13
Andrew Downs
Yeah. And I try to keep as close to you because I can't yet Information.

01:03:54:13 - 01:04:01:11
Daniel Franco
Yeah. So what what does a company with that armed with that knowledge have to do Just exactly as you said just.

01:04:01:15 - 01:04:23:10
Andrew Downs
This is the key about having a high performing board as well so you know you've got very that you we've got a lot of experience on our board and I can I just look at the numbers that we give them, you know, and at the moment I'd say bexsero as as we've had many discussions is how can we be the best company we can be the best structure, the best, you know, best in class.

01:04:23:10 - 01:04:33:23
Andrew Downs
Yeah. So I'm sure she'd be the first to agree if the work's there and you're working for sovereign defense capability or if it's a recession.

01:04:33:26 - 01:04:34:13
Daniel Franco
Areas and.

01:04:34:13 - 01:04:56:19
Andrew Downs
If it's a large tunnel, we will be the tunnels, for example. I don't believe they're going to that Those jobs will not not, not happen. And you're dealing with contractors that will be secured by by government. So, yeah, Now, if we were in a consumer area and you'd already see pull back, of course we'd have to change that.

01:04:56:21 - 01:05:01:07
Andrew Downs
So I think we've moved into those solid areas of business. Yeah.

01:05:01:09 - 01:05:26:20
Daniel Franco
Which is great. And that's, I think that's your boss because it's funny I, since caught up, it's when you and I were chatting and when I had that catch up with Bec, it's since then it's been front and center of me in my mind I should say. And I've actually asked that question a lot on the podcast since, you know, ask Alfie and I had Craig written from North Line and just people in the car again and, and they're all quite positive in saying.

01:05:26:20 - 01:05:30:04
Andrew Downs
We'd have to be the same as we sit here. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:05:30:04 - 01:05:38:02
Daniel Franco
That it's actually, it's looking better than what we thought it was so I think that's exciting. But obviously just to make sure.

01:05:38:02 - 01:05:44:02
Andrew Downs
And I just want to make it really clear that I don't do any of that. I don't run. I sit on the board, I've got.

01:05:44:07 - 01:05:45:05
Daniel Franco
100%, I.

01:05:45:06 - 01:05:49:22
Andrew Downs
Of course I keep very close to the company and it's, it's you know, it's, it's baby in some respects Right.

01:05:49:23 - 01:05:50:02
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

01:05:50:09 - 01:06:00:21
Andrew Downs
But it's Adrian and the executive management team because part of that you know who run the business you know, and it's in their hands and I have implicit trust in them.

01:06:00:23 - 01:06:39:03
Daniel Franco
So you're you're growing you're growing Australia wide now. Yeah. You got the eye on the global market. One thing that I know to be true, right? And you might you might you might have a different opinion, but I think I'm going to be on the money with this. Is that the the, the trade well the blue collar world tends to look at things like culture and leadership is a bit of a bit of fluffy talk, but yet it's something that you are very, very focused on and creating the right culture and creating a great place to work.

01:06:39:06 - 01:07:05:05
Daniel Franco
I got a few questions within these, and I want to start with this. It seems like since day one, ever since starting stage, you have been able to get discretionary effort from your team and the people we work under, under your brand. What's what's the magic pill? Have you, um, how do you create that world where people want to do more.

01:07:05:12 - 01:07:26:10
Andrew Downs
Because you're bringing people on a journey? I honestly believe the people that I would work with know that I've already said I can't do it. Or so I think there's got to be an element of humility in time. I can't do this without you. Um, you know, I think this is where a lot of founders will make the mistake that they are the God's gift of everything.

01:07:26:12 - 01:07:43:19
Andrew Downs
Yeah. Look, let's do this. And then people see, you know what? We can do this together. It's a team. Yeah, it's not I. It's actually. It's a team. So you get people jumping in and they will do their best efforts to make that thing work. Yeah, it could be a it could be a new sector. It could be.

01:07:43:22 - 01:07:58:16
Andrew Downs
I remember getting into defense, you know, Phil Cornell and Paul Johnson just got on a plane and banging on the Vantage's door because I just believe that's what they should do. It's not like me saying, Right, You know, he's I've got the notes, what the coach should do. And yeah, off you go.

01:07:58:17 - 01:07:59:17
Daniel Franco
Just do it.

01:07:59:20 - 01:08:01:27
Andrew Downs
Just set the price, set the goal.

01:08:02:00 - 01:08:15:11
Daniel Franco
But it seems like and correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like people just put in more hours. They put in so much time in helping you and the business grow.

01:08:15:14 - 01:08:34:23
Andrew Downs
It's look, I can't deny that's probably and that's why, you know, these people are so loyal and and great people. But but I'd say because because there's one you know, I think there's one word I hate is bureaucracy. And unfortunately, you have to have a level of bureaucracy as you grow. You have.

01:08:34:23 - 01:08:36:26
Daniel Franco
To. Yeah.

01:08:36:28 - 01:08:53:06
Andrew Downs
But good people that are well-intentioned, if you can put less bullshit in the way and if you can let them do what they what they really aspire to do without, you know, they used to say, you know, strict on strategy, losing control was one of the things I ran with for a while.

01:08:53:07 - 01:08:54:03
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

01:08:54:05 - 01:08:55:10
Andrew Downs
Just Get it done. Yeah.

01:08:55:14 - 01:08:55:25
Daniel Franco
Right.

01:08:55:27 - 01:09:24:24
Andrew Downs
Right. I think unfortunately in some organizations now, there's so many so many levels of this manager's got to approve this and approve this and it becomes demote evading, you know, stuff it. Yeah. What's it to work out. So some and people do it for themselves as well. Yeah. For their own achievement. Look I've done and, and that's why I just got some great little businesses inside of the big, big business which is being done by, you know, very highly passionate, skilled individuals.

01:09:24:24 - 01:09:36:29
Andrew Downs
Yeah. But then they get their own promotion, if you know what I mean. How do they work? The more successful they become? And they, you know, and I think the other thing you've got to do in business is recognize people.

01:09:37:00 - 01:09:37:29
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

01:09:38:02 - 01:09:46:02
Andrew Downs
And we've always tried to do that end of months, recognize people, get a great job. You know, you've done some great work.

01:09:46:05 - 01:10:16:03
Daniel Franco
There's a few things in there. I want to go back to Strict on strategy, at least in control in a sec. But the the part where you said I think it's really an important point for those listening in, not as the entrepreneur, but those for those working within that environment. If you put in, you're almost certain that the entrepreneurs or the business owners are going to want you around and take you on that ride, isn't it?

01:10:16:03 - 01:10:17:05
Daniel Franco
Do you believe that to be true.

01:10:17:06 - 01:10:26:24
Andrew Downs
To me, that should be the way it happens. Yeah, unfortunately, some people maybe don't see it that way, but that's how I see it. The harder someone works, the more they should be given opportunity.

01:10:26:27 - 01:10:42:19
Daniel Franco
Yeah. Yeah. So strict on strategy, losing control. That's a very stoic mindset, right? From someone who seems like it's gone through a lot of years of experience. Right?

01:10:42:21 - 01:10:53:11
Andrew Downs
So I'd say that was something maybe in that fast growth period we from around about 20 1314, there might have been an element of Harvard in that as well.

01:10:53:11 - 01:10:54:18
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

01:10:54:20 - 01:10:56:19
Andrew Downs
I'd say it's probably changing a bit now too.

01:10:56:19 - 01:10:57:03
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

01:10:57:06 - 01:10:58:26
Andrew Downs
As you get to 700 plus.

01:10:58:27 - 01:10:59:17
Daniel Franco
You've got to you.

01:10:59:17 - 01:11:01:28
Andrew Downs
Probably just kind of have the whole pile of people.

01:11:02:05 - 01:11:02:20
Daniel Franco
Just don't.

01:11:02:21 - 01:11:06:10
Andrew Downs
Say we're doing what we're doing now. So, you know, you've got to put things in context.

01:11:06:10 - 01:11:20:13
Daniel Franco
Yeah, well I think the what I'm hearing and like you said, probably aimed more towards smaller mediums is that you've got a strategy. This is where we're going. How you get us there is actually great.

01:11:20:14 - 01:11:44:27
Andrew Downs
So there's parts of stage now that still have that. Like there's there's leaders that just charge off and do what they believe is right. As long as it's strategies, you've got to make a minimum gross margin. You've got to you know, you've got to produce quality work and cash flow. Yeah. Certain things that are non-negotiable. Yeah, but where you're going to get that work, how you do it, what risk you take, you know, we still leave that to those people.

01:11:44:28 - 01:11:46:15
Andrew Downs
Yeah. And, and not just.

01:11:46:21 - 01:11:48:23
Daniel Franco
Like you said, hire great people and.

01:11:48:26 - 01:12:09:20
Andrew Downs
Yeah, look, we all know you can work for large corporates, and I'll just make a blanket. No, we're not doing any work in this area anymore. Yeah, well, that may be true, but maybe there's two or three customers that are still outstanding in that area. And I think we've that well, we're highly diversified, you know, and, and, and always looking at our business.

01:12:09:20 - 01:12:20:29
Andrew Downs
But you never want to throw away great customers. No great customers. And they might be in a segment that is not necessarily your favorite segment, but it doesn't mean not great customers.

01:12:20:29 - 01:12:29:27
Daniel Franco
Yeah. And I think all Sage's born on Sage Group now it's got it's almost the house of brands, isn't it, in the sense.

01:12:30:01 - 01:12:48:29
Andrew Downs
I went to Harvard. Listen I was yeah, I'm an agent so the thing with Harvard is in the I'll give a plug to the industry leaders fund I life. Yeah I got awarded to go to Harvard Business School in the opium program in 2014. I think it was. I got so much value from that. What's the point of me having that knowledge?

01:12:49:01 - 01:13:00:27
Andrew Downs
And Phi He applied to the IMF. He got accepted. He did it in 2016. And then our CFO, Don Draper, did the AMP, which is the equivalent.

01:13:00:27 - 01:13:01:17
Daniel Franco
It's a big one.

01:13:01:21 - 01:13:18:16
Andrew Downs
That's it's the same course content, probably a little bit more intense. Something nice of you put out. Did they make them work harder than they all entrepreneurs one but but it's the same course content but it's a nine week yes so the philosophy there was these things aren't cheap. I mean that's 200 grand plus.

01:13:18:16 - 01:13:18:26
Daniel Franco
Mm hmm.

01:13:19:03 - 01:13:22:10
Andrew Downs
Yeah. And thank you to the I live for 2025 Grant.

01:13:22:11 - 01:13:23:05
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

01:13:23:07 - 01:13:29:29
Andrew Downs
You've still got to make a commitment that your wife and your business for three months. You've, you've, you've got to travel. You've got to. Yeah.

01:13:30:01 - 01:13:33:17
Daniel Franco
So it's a big opium is 200,000.

01:13:33:19 - 01:13:38:11
Andrew Downs
It would be at 70 I think if you look at on websites. 70,000 us.

01:13:38:13 - 01:13:39:11
Daniel Franco
I think so.

01:13:39:14 - 01:13:41:06
Andrew Downs
Yeah. And it's for three years.

01:13:41:08 - 01:13:41:16
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

01:13:41:16 - 01:13:48:24
Andrew Downs
Well I think I'm on maybe I've already converted to Australia but that's not including your time. No. Or your airfares or transport.

01:13:48:24 - 01:13:49:17
Daniel Franco
So it's.

01:13:49:17 - 01:13:50:00
Andrew Downs
200.

01:13:50:00 - 01:13:51:15
Daniel Franco
Plus. It's a investment.

01:13:51:15 - 01:14:07:05
Andrew Downs
And I think that's something that if we talk about my life, it's never been scared to invest in people. You know, you've got to invest in people. Yeah, I could have just taken that course myself and said, You know what? I'm a Harvard alumni. Fantastic. Not I don't needed to get this experience.

01:14:07:05 - 01:14:11:14
Daniel Franco
So this goes back to the point of traveling overseas and.

01:14:11:16 - 01:14:13:22
Andrew Downs
Meeting people and people connecting.

01:14:13:23 - 01:14:32:01
Daniel Franco
Well, I mean, traveling overseas to gain experience, investing in people so that they can grow. I mean, you know, I talk on behalf of myself with I run a small business, but it's the it's the management of cash that sort of stops me from being able to do that, if if you know what I mean. Like.

01:14:32:03 - 01:14:34:07
Andrew Downs
It's always probably the management cash is still a.

01:14:34:07 - 01:14:47:16
Daniel Franco
Problem, is always the problem and you know it. But I'm not it's not without this desire to want to do that. So what's your advice to those trying to bridge that gap? It's just like surely the answers can always just be just so more like.

01:14:47:19 - 01:15:07:04
Andrew Downs
Nah, you make an investment. I suppose it's it's where you are in your company, it's where you are in the lifecycle of the whole company. Know, I'd say any of those smaller companies that are trying to give it a guy, you throw, you know, you throw everything back in and it's really interesting when people say, I had to build such a big company, I'll tell you how I portion.

01:15:07:04 - 01:15:09:21
Andrew Downs
I bought my fancy house and went back in the business.

01:15:09:22 - 01:15:10:14
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

01:15:10:16 - 01:15:36:02
Andrew Downs
And then you might see some small businesses and they've got all those things and I'm going, well, if it was me that that money would be going into the business. Yeah, Yeah, some, some can do both. But I think that might be different. Industries too is reinvestment concentrate the reinvestment of education couple hundred now that couple on the green could have gone straight to profit the rate investment of education for agent for doing that should come back as a return on investment.

01:15:36:04 - 01:15:37:20
Andrew Downs
But does it hurt in that year.

01:15:37:23 - 01:15:38:26
Daniel Franco
I think it is, yeah.

01:15:38:28 - 01:15:51:28
Andrew Downs
Right So I think it's a balancing act about what is return on investment. What does it look like if you break into a new market? What is the price? If you go to a new location, I'll guarantee you lose money, you sink.

01:15:52:01 - 01:16:02:08
Daniel Franco
I think I caught up with the CEO yesterday who had done the same thing. He'd done the IPM and he says 136 case studies of what not to do and what to do with your business.

01:16:02:11 - 01:16:03:04
Andrew Downs
Case study learnings.

01:16:03:04 - 01:16:04:10
Daniel Franco
I'm unbelievable.

01:16:04:10 - 01:16:08:14
Andrew Downs
Yeah, brilliant. I love it. And that's the only way I can learn.

01:16:08:15 - 01:16:09:05
Daniel Franco
Yeah, I agree.

01:16:09:05 - 01:16:19:15
Andrew Downs
Is tell me your story. I'll tell you my story. What did you learn real not blackboard so you know Harvard of case study learning Mm Coca versus Pepsi buddy all that stuff.

01:16:19:15 - 01:16:21:02
Daniel Franco
Nokia Kodak.

01:16:21:04 - 01:16:24:09
Andrew Downs
Oh yeah. The bad. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

01:16:24:13 - 01:16:36:11
Daniel Franco
You it's funny, like you just said that. Tell me your story or tell your mind. And you've had that philosophy growing this business from day one. Having you you like really focus on partnerships.

01:16:36:13 - 01:17:04:24
Andrew Downs
Partnerships is probably the greatest difference between our firm and other companies in the like industry is we collaborate, we partner, we just get it's a personal thing. I get it. I have they all worked out. No, no. And that's a human element in there. But does it mean you give up on it? No, because there's always some great and we've got a mechanical partner at the moment out of Melbourne, just, just brilliant.

01:17:04:26 - 01:17:08:17
Andrew Downs
We're winning work that we never thought we could win, but we can't win without them.

01:17:08:20 - 01:17:09:17
Daniel Franco
Yeah, it's fabulous.

01:17:09:22 - 01:17:10:24
Andrew Downs
And it is fabulous.

01:17:10:24 - 01:17:27:13
Daniel Franco
What's the idea? I mean, is it how do you how do you go about setting up partnerships, consortiums, all the above? Do you think that's the model for a lot of these business, lot of businesses and not look, I'm for me and synergy. Q The business that are on it, it's it's something that I'm absolutely open to and explore.

01:17:27:13 - 01:17:33:21
Daniel Franco
I mean, we work with change management. You think about the amount of partners that we could partner up with and help organizations.

01:17:33:26 - 01:17:34:29
Andrew Downs
It's incredibly hard.

01:17:34:29 - 01:17:36:00
Daniel Franco
But yeah.

01:17:36:02 - 01:17:41:29
Andrew Downs
Either you've got it and you do and I haven't and I don't think you can drag people to partnering or.

01:17:42:01 - 01:17:43:15
Daniel Franco
You're going to find those who are open.

01:17:43:15 - 01:17:55:20
Andrew Downs
It has to be. Yeah. I think the first meeting is, Oh yeah, sure. Yeah. I would love to partner with then. Yeah. The first may. Well, mate, can you show us you, can you open your books and show us how you do your charging. Yeah. No, no, I can't show you that. Yeah, well, guess what?

01:17:55:20 - 01:17:56:03
Daniel Franco
We can't.

01:17:56:03 - 01:18:09:00
Andrew Downs
Surprise, surprise. I can't partner with you. Yeah, you have to be. You know, transparency is trust, and Win-Win is is about the end game, Correct.

01:18:09:02 - 01:18:10:27
Daniel Franco
And how we best serve the client.

01:18:10:29 - 01:18:30:00
Andrew Downs
So I reckon 50% fall out because I just don't want to say. And by the way, when you partner sometimes, you know, there's a shit sandwich involved as well. It doesn't work or you're doing the heavy lifting for the partner. Mm hmm. And that's okay sometimes because you hope it turns on the next job.

01:18:30:05 - 01:18:31:14
Daniel Franco
Swing and roundabouts. Right.

01:18:31:16 - 01:18:49:23
Andrew Downs
But but, but when it does work, it is absolutely beautiful. It's a concept. And as I said. I'm going to give a big plug to automation innovation out of Melbourne. We're winning millions of dollars of work as we speak, which is stuff we cannot do without them and they can't do without. So hold it up as the best case study that I.

01:18:50:00 - 01:18:54:03
Daniel Franco
Had is one go on a search for working with a partner. Is it just through.

01:18:54:09 - 01:18:54:12
Andrew Downs
To.

01:18:54:13 - 01:18:55:03
Daniel Franco
Someone?

01:18:55:06 - 01:19:05:12
Andrew Downs
Someone told me there's a definition in Adelaide and it's not sixes, but you look for the good bloke or the good Sheila. I'm just saying. Yeah, there's got to be this element of. Yeah, that's a good.

01:19:05:19 - 01:19:07:19
Daniel Franco
Can I have a beer with this person.

01:19:07:22 - 01:19:12:17
Andrew Downs
Could we have a beer with the person. Adelaide is so brilliant for doing a bit of a network check.

01:19:12:17 - 01:19:13:13
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

01:19:13:15 - 01:19:16:06
Andrew Downs
Yeah. What is what Daniel Frank I like.

01:19:16:11 - 01:19:18:04
Daniel Franco
Yeah. One degree actually.

01:19:18:04 - 01:19:19:05
Andrew Downs
I haven't checked up on. You haven't?

01:19:19:05 - 01:19:19:16
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

01:19:19:18 - 01:19:24:20
Andrew Downs
I really should have done that. So. Yeah, that was quite a journey. Give me a.

01:19:24:20 - 01:19:26:28
Daniel Franco
Week. You might not know notes, but.

01:19:26:28 - 01:19:33:00
Andrew Downs
But no, I think, I think you use your network. Was it in the tipping point, which is one of my favorite favorite.

01:19:33:03 - 01:19:34:02
Daniel Franco
Malcolm Gladwell. Yeah.

01:19:34:07 - 01:19:56:24
Andrew Downs
Gladwell. He said there's three types of people which is connectors, mavens and salesmen. And and for those who don't know, Maven is someone who can is an expert or an educator on the subject. And I don't particularly like salesman. So I'm a connector. And that if you can connect people or they have a skill in that, it's amazing what you can open up in the world.

01:19:56:24 - 01:19:59:28
Andrew Downs
Yeah, I agree. Globally, locally.

01:20:00:00 - 01:20:06:21
Daniel Franco
Nationally, I would say it's probably one of the strongest traits is the connection thing and hence the reason why we're probably sitting you. It's a reason why we.

01:20:06:21 - 01:20:09:15
Andrew Downs
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

01:20:09:18 - 01:20:25:15
Daniel Franco
So the Harvard cool. I want to just touch on that for a moment. Leadership I know for you now and I don't know what your whole career look like from a relationship perspective, but you go, And when did you go on the Harvard course?

01:20:25:17 - 01:20:27:07
Andrew Downs
2014 was my first year.

01:20:27:07 - 01:20:35:00
Daniel Franco
2014. What did what did Andrew down to the leader look like from 94 compared to now?

01:20:35:03 - 01:20:39:18
Andrew Downs
Probably unprofessional. Bit raw, a bit rough.

01:20:39:20 - 01:20:44:29
Daniel Franco
Do you think you had the leadership qualities? I mean, you were at Bridgestone, you were leading for your people like the at.

01:20:45:03 - 01:20:52:12
Andrew Downs
Look absolutely I people don't just follow if you're not a leader correct. I wouldn't have been out to get the people to stay or.

01:20:52:18 - 01:20:57:04
Daniel Franco
So you're saying that your people process wasn't so great, but your visionary was great.

01:20:57:09 - 01:20:58:26
Andrew Downs
Maybe my people process was great.

01:20:59:00 - 01:20:59:09
Daniel Franco
Thank you.

01:20:59:12 - 01:21:00:19
Andrew Downs
Well, they're still there.

01:21:00:19 - 01:21:02:09
Daniel Franco
It's still obviously worthy. Right.

01:21:02:13 - 01:21:21:27
Andrew Downs
But would I pass a h.r. Exam on its best methodology? Yeah, probably. No, they'd say no. That's the worst, buddy. And by the way, I'm the worst employer in the world, you know? Yeah, Yeah, I just pick people. Off you go. I've been more right than wrong, but I wouldn't be putting myself into high general.

01:21:21:29 - 01:21:22:27
Daniel Franco
Can't feel.

01:21:22:29 - 01:21:24:09
Andrew Downs
Comfortable.

01:21:24:11 - 01:21:51:05
Daniel Franco
Do you place much emphasis on gut feel? I think. And I asked this question. Tell me from the point of early in this in my career we made some decisions that we went against gut feel. Yeah. And then it absolutely blew up in our face a way. My business partner, Michelle and I table it said, Right gut feel will be tabled at every single crucial decision of this business.

01:21:51:08 - 01:22:10:20
Andrew Downs
I would say I want gut feels there. I have to bring people like Adrian in on those calls. Yeah. Because he's got a did you need to do to me. Yeah you need I want people one of the it's weakness and a strength. I want people to be successful so I'll want them. That's vessel. I'm a terrible employer.

01:22:10:23 - 01:22:32:15
Andrew Downs
I want you to join. I want you to be good. Yeah, but there could be some glaring issues then. Every now and then you do mate something and you believe that this person is just not right for our organization or to be a partner or even to be a friend. You know, there's just something that's not right. Yeah, but I would typically give people more of a chance than the average person that's worked.

01:22:32:18 - 01:22:36:04
Andrew Downs
Yeah And then we've had some bloody horror stories, too.

01:22:36:06 - 01:22:47:26
Daniel Franco
So there always is. It's part of the learning process. So leadership now, value in leadership now, what value place on that and your leadership skills?

01:22:47:29 - 01:22:55:09
Andrew Downs
I think authentic leadership is where I want to go back to because I reckon how I was in the 90 fours on.

01:22:55:09 - 01:22:56:18
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

01:22:56:21 - 01:23:10:17
Andrew Downs
Was probably my my most effective is Yeah. And that's because it was unconventional and it was authentic. And I think as soon as you try to, which I've done, you try to put yourself in a box against all these other great successful leaders.

01:23:10:19 - 01:23:11:16
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

01:23:11:19 - 01:23:24:12
Andrew Downs
You lose, your authenticity and you lose the ability to make the, you know, the, you know, the decisions that you would have made. So I'm probably returning back to the, you know, speak out. This is what I do.

01:23:24:15 - 01:23:25:03
Daniel Franco
This is me.

01:23:25:04 - 01:23:33:08
Andrew Downs
Not be scared and scared and say, well, it's it's not for anyone to judge. This is the way you do things.

01:23:33:10 - 01:23:41:08
Daniel Franco
So, so within that. So let's wrap up that leadership and culture piece. And we talked about culture being the fluffy.

01:23:41:10 - 01:23:41:27
Andrew Downs
Yeah.

01:23:42:00 - 01:24:05:13
Daniel Franco
It seems like from the outside looking, we've done some work with Sage, and for Sage it seems like you guys are running a really great business over there that people want to work and the culture is great. You promote ambition, you promote resilience, you promote competition, you promote working together diversity. It seems like you're ticking all the right boxes.

01:24:05:15 - 01:24:08:26
Daniel Franco
MM Do you feel like there's still area for improvement, though?

01:24:08:28 - 01:24:30:15
Andrew Downs
Of course that look one of The Hobbit and I mean this is a Harvard thing. I think we Martin spoke about it. One of the most profound graphs is and I've always believed that yeah sage has a great culture, but do we have a high performance culture. It's one of the it was a turning point. Yeah. So the word culture, we're all bloody good mates back slapping and everything.

01:24:30:20 - 01:24:34:15
Andrew Downs
But guess what, with 10% down on GHE Compared to the industry.

01:24:34:20 - 01:24:35:24
Daniel Franco
Yeah, this process and.

01:24:35:24 - 01:24:38:26
Andrew Downs
That, we're all going to be all right. I know, I know.

01:24:38:29 - 01:24:41:12
Daniel Franco
Well, culture is not just about fuel right.

01:24:41:14 - 01:25:01:18
Andrew Downs
It what I'm saying is that could be seen as what a great culture no one leaves. They're so happy. They're we're all bloody you know bond each other be is on a Friday night. Yeah but then there's that other part of it that you have to look at it. We are in business. Yeah. And we have to drive performance culture and there's, there's a gulf in between.

01:25:01:21 - 01:25:25:00
Andrew Downs
Mm. So when people say culture, I'd say yep, you can have an amazing culture, but what is the culture you're trying to achieve to get your business results. Right. Without doubt. And, and unfortunately, the culture you believe is the best may have to take a bit of a backseat while you're chasing high performance culture. What's leave Or they say, Oh, that's not the same old ideas.

01:25:25:07 - 01:25:36:01
Andrew Downs
That's not the same old dancing events that I have to leave. All right. Because you still have to be I mean, you got shareholders. You got to honor the chief. Mm.

01:25:36:03 - 01:25:53:12
Daniel Franco
Well, culture is an outcome and you're you 100% right. You design it by what you're actually looking to achieve as a business. So the way you look at it is sort of split up in three different ways. You've got the form of the business, the flow of the business and the feel of the business form, flow, flow forming is the vision, the strategy.

01:25:53:12 - 01:26:15:12
Daniel Franco
Why are we here? What are we trying to achieve? The flow is the everyday processes and systems in the way in which we make money. And the feel is the backslapping. It's the Oh yeah, this is a great culture. I love working with the idea of working with Joe Blow. It sort of split up. I think typically where you find the lack of high performing is in that flow pace, which is like we got 16 signatures to get something over the line.

01:26:15:12 - 01:26:16:26
Daniel Franco
This is a pain in the ass.

01:26:16:28 - 01:26:21:27
Andrew Downs
And also as you have to become more systematized, some people don't make that either.

01:26:21:29 - 01:26:22:14
Daniel Franco
Correct?

01:26:22:14 - 01:26:32:07
Andrew Downs
You know, until very least it's not the same anymore. We've got more paperwork, you know, it's things creep into life, correct? As much as I'd probably hate paperwork, you have to have it.

01:26:32:07 - 01:26:33:03
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

01:26:33:06 - 01:26:47:10
Andrew Downs
So as companies grow or they become, you know, a size, it could be size, It could be the industries you entering in. You've always got to it's a variable. It's a bit of a moving.

01:26:47:12 - 01:26:48:02
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

01:26:48:04 - 01:27:03:22
Andrew Downs
But on the on the outset you want to have a great culture where people say happy to work, they're great organization, they've got my back. If something goes wrong, we've had many instances where people had personal issues and you do what you do, you help them spot on.

01:27:03:25 - 01:27:34:05
Daniel Franco
How have you managed yourself? And and I and you know this of me, I'm a person who has really strong family values. So I'm going to ask some questions around how do you believe you've managed your family life? How do you. Oh, actually, let me ask us this question. How do you realize your visions right. From a business perspective, whilst trying to maintain loving relationships.

01:27:34:07 - 01:27:56:15
Andrew Downs
You should be answering that question telling me because that's probably the gap in my whole life. That's probably my biggest gap is that you know pursuit of work or pursuit of goals has burnt through, you know, many relationships and bits and pieces, not nicely. I'm a lover, not a fighter type thing, and I'm friends with everyone I've met.

01:27:56:16 - 01:28:25:10
Andrew Downs
But and, but have I been a great husband or a partner or whatever? I'd say no. I think there's always there's always a pursuit of, of, of, of sage or yeah, whatever. So and I haven't had children too beautiful grandchildren. Um, and I invest heavily in those guys as much as I can. But no, it wasn't, it wasn't set up as a goal for whatever reason.

01:28:25:14 - 01:28:34:04
Andrew Downs
Yeah, I've got no regrets, by the way. But it just wasn't there that, you know, happily married kids Was was it was. It was. This must do.

01:28:34:05 - 01:28:45:00
Daniel Franco
Yeah. Yeah. Do you think there's a contradiction to what you're saying now and the family values that you had growing up. Probably because you said Sunday dinners and coaching.

01:28:45:04 - 01:29:03:24
Andrew Downs
I say I'd have to agree with you. I'd have to agree with you. But it's, hey, it's how you driven. It's how you become, I think, you know, um, but once again, there's no there's no regrets. It's not like. No, no, no. I know lots of people that have you know, they've gone into the heavily in the family unit and it's all blown up and it's and then I think.

01:29:03:25 - 01:29:04:22
Daniel Franco
Yeah, no.

01:29:04:24 - 01:29:09:27
Andrew Downs
I'm not making excuses. I'm saying it's I've been happy sort of like taking a lead.

01:29:09:29 - 01:29:25:23
Daniel Franco
Where you can only play the cards dealt. Rather you dealt with these cards. Now there's no point. Yeah you do you, you live the life that you've got. Do you, do you, are you now placing more emphasis on that family side.

01:29:25:25 - 01:29:37:25
Andrew Downs
Look, probably I'm just saying I just hit 60, I call it the last quarter on the AFL analogy. You know, there's the last quarter. I'm just enjoying life at the moment.

01:29:37:29 - 01:29:38:18
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

01:29:38:21 - 01:29:39:12
Andrew Downs
Yeah.

01:29:39:14 - 01:29:44:15
Daniel Franco
What's the, um, what does the next ten or so years look for?

01:29:44:15 - 01:30:09:10
Andrew Downs
Andrew Yeah, it's interesting. Well, I think, uh, because I'm not actively involved in executive capacity at SAGE, you know, um, there is a, there is a, there's a new chapter there for sure, and it might be working with some of these other smaller companies. It's still ambassador for yet we're doing all the great work there. But yeah, actually exciting exciting as I don't know.

01:30:09:12 - 01:30:23:24
Andrew Downs
Yeah. And it could be that there might be another little business opportunity there. I don't think I'm going to be the person that says golf on Wednesdays, you know, having a cup of tea on a monday morning at nine. I don't think that's me that.

01:30:23:26 - 01:30:26:10
Daniel Franco
You love the business side too much.

01:30:26:12 - 01:30:52:25
Andrew Downs
It's not so much. If you don't enjoy it, then don't do it. Yeah, but I think if you can if you can find the right people with the right, uh, characters and personalities and it's just so enjoyable. It's great that don't ask me to sit down or write massive emails or anything, cause I won't do it. No, but if it's having lunch or, or mentoring or doing something, then 100%.

01:30:52:27 - 01:30:53:15
Daniel Franco
You're holding.

01:30:53:20 - 01:30:55:20
Andrew Downs
And I'd be there to.

01:30:55:23 - 01:30:57:18
Daniel Franco
Connect you, isn't it.

01:30:57:20 - 01:31:01:05
Andrew Downs
That's what I've worked out. Yeah. Thank you, Malcolm Gladwell.

01:31:01:07 - 01:31:17:19
Daniel Franco
Yeah, brilliant. The the forward projection on Sage, where do you think that's going to end up? And out of curiosity, why haven't you looked at selling or anything like that?

01:31:17:19 - 01:31:41:07
Andrew Downs
Well, because at the moment we've been flat out trying to reach a goal. So our strategic target was to get to 200 and something million. Yeah, we grew it from 100 to 200 a lot quicker. That took us to get to 100, trust me. And and at the moment and with Beck coming on board as well yeah it's let's have a bit of a breather and see where where we can really take the the future of sage.

01:31:41:10 - 01:31:53:21
Andrew Downs
So you know I think I think we just we're focusing on, you know, being the best we can be. Yeah, I said that before that what happens from there? It could be an acquisition in the US. It could be, could be a number of things.

01:31:53:22 - 01:32:05:18
Daniel Franco
It's continued growth. I mean like you said, you're reviewing your strategy. Yeah, you know, slowing down slightly but with the, with the, with the eye on growth still.

01:32:05:21 - 01:32:07:29
Andrew Downs
That's right. But at the moment maybe a bit of a spell.

01:32:08:06 - 01:32:09:00
Daniel Franco
Consolidation.

01:32:09:01 - 01:32:23:01
Andrew Downs
Consolidation and then to grow again in some way before. Mm. So whether that's with another partner you know I've talked about partnering so much it might be that we find the perfect partner to go and do something bigger or better. I don't know.

01:32:23:03 - 01:32:39:16
Daniel Franco
Brilliant. Now I am conscious of your time. One last question before we jump into some quickfire questions. Is there is there anything that you would do differently looking back? I mean, you said no regrets.

01:32:39:18 - 01:33:04:06
Andrew Downs
Yeah, you know what I did? I had a tick tick meeting yesterday. I did say I reckon the number what I do differently is certainly have more respect for sales process. So the I mean, we just we just innately sold, we just went out and delivered right work for customers, but I think um, and I might have mentioned before, I'm doing a bit of work with Bin from marketing.

01:33:04:06 - 01:33:26:00
Andrew Downs
Yeah. And I'm just, I'm like a sponge at the moment to learn what he's. Because if we could have understood our customers better, we probably could have delivered more at a higher margin and created a win win. I think I think it's a blind spot for a lot of businesses. They just say, I've got this product and they push it to the customer.

01:33:26:03 - 01:33:35:18
Andrew Downs
I think if you could learn the black art of understanding a customer's wants and needs and then translating it back into your business, that that would have been transformational.

01:33:35:20 - 01:33:36:03
Daniel Franco
Agreed.

01:33:36:09 - 01:34:01:19
Andrew Downs
And one of the things would be learning to say no. And I did another podcast on the stories, but sometimes saying no is the most powerful thing you can do. Rather than discount and carry on. And, you know, and it's about getting that cost versus value. Yeah, maybe that's the thing I should have said. Understanding cost. This is value from a customer's perspective, because if they just think you're about cost, we shouldn't work for them.

01:34:01:26 - 01:34:17:18
Andrew Downs
Yeah, and by the way, if they can't see value, they shouldn't use this. So that one I, I had more IQ around that but that would be the only thing. I mean, you know, so sometimes the biggest values have been the best lessons. So know.

01:34:17:21 - 01:34:39:00
Daniel Franco
Yeah, I'm kind of in that same boat with my business now it seems to me, and it seems like a pattern that. If you're if you aim to grow quickly, then code cost becomes a big factor in that. It's like I need to try to get as much work as possible to agree or disagree with that.

01:34:39:04 - 01:35:07:06
Andrew Downs
Look, I think at the moment you focus on profit is the outcome. MM. You've lost the, you've lost the plot in a way, yeah. I think, I think profit can't you can't, you can turn it, you can, you know, you can take the team teams out of the boardroom and you get rid of the bottled water and make everyone that that's costs or but if you keep doing the right things like I'll quote Donald McGurk or something, you know from CO down, if you keep doing the right things or the right intensity.

01:35:07:06 - 01:35:09:27
Andrew Downs
Yeah. Eventually though eventually it'll work.

01:35:09:27 - 01:35:10:12
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

01:35:10:15 - 01:35:11:24
Andrew Downs
And the profit will come.

01:35:11:26 - 01:35:12:19
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

01:35:12:21 - 01:35:38:13
Andrew Downs
So I think anyone that just flicks a lever and says we're now focused on profit and cost, I personally I that's not my Yeah. Now I do believe that businesses have to do that and everything else but yeah you know it's a, it's a bit of a cultural issue as well. Um so yeah, profits important but do you do it at all costs and maybe have a negative impact on your business?

01:35:38:17 - 01:35:39:24
Andrew Downs
Yeah. Jury's out.

01:35:39:27 - 01:35:43:28
Daniel Franco
Yeah. I love that dynamic is no longer cut in question.

01:35:43:28 - 01:35:44:25
Andrew Downs
Actually.

01:35:44:28 - 01:35:49:24
Daniel Franco
He's working with Anthony. Yeah, we got him on the show coming up as well.

01:35:49:24 - 01:35:50:21
Andrew Downs
It's one of his quotes.

01:35:50:21 - 01:35:51:25
Daniel Franco
He's an absolute superstar.

01:35:51:25 - 01:35:54:22
Andrew Downs
Yet in the absence of results, you know.

01:35:54:25 - 01:35:56:00
Daniel Franco
Write things right and and keep.

01:35:56:00 - 01:36:00:06
Andrew Downs
Doing the right things with the right intention. It'll work out. Yeah. I love it.

01:36:00:09 - 01:36:07:27
Daniel Franco
Beautiful. All right. Just some quick questions. Actually, one more question. What excites you about the future?

01:36:08:00 - 01:36:31:18
Andrew Downs
The whole look, the market that Sage is in, it's just I mean, sometimes you pick markets that are in a decline or something. We're in this new digital world. Yeah. So the opportunities for Sage just keep growing. Mean it's really like a Pandora's box of something like it. We don't know where we could end up, but you know, the whole digital world is exciting people need to automate.

01:36:31:21 - 01:36:32:29
Daniel Franco
You're standing there with open arms.

01:36:32:29 - 01:36:43:09
Andrew Downs
It's yeah yeah and and I think there's a lot we've probably never had more opportunity than we've had. We've got now in the businesses that we can.

01:36:43:11 - 01:36:48:03
Daniel Franco
Use and exciting that you're at the size and scale that you are and there's more opportunity coming.

01:36:48:07 - 01:36:53:04
Andrew Downs
Yeah well and picking the opportunities now. Yeah you know we chose to be back.

01:36:53:06 - 01:37:03:06
Daniel Franco
And is a company like mine who you're looking, you're continually looking for opportunity. Have we at what point do you think it starts to turn time.

01:37:03:09 - 01:37:24:07
Andrew Downs
I think this you have a strategy, it takes time and you have to just revisit it. Mhm. But let's face it, in your type of business you've got to follow the money fly Right. Willingness to pay. Mhm. Yeah. Is a big thing. Yeah. And I think that really that helps us make decisions too. Yeah. You know you don't go to a sector that can't afford it.

01:37:24:09 - 01:37:25:17
Daniel Franco
Yeah. Correct.

01:37:25:19 - 01:37:31:24
Andrew Downs
And if you've got sectors that can't afford um they will pay for quality and then that sits in our wheelhouse.

01:37:32:00 - 01:37:32:21
Daniel Franco
Yep.

01:37:32:23 - 01:37:38:16
Andrew Downs
This is, you know, banging your head against the wall saying we've got the best quality but don't want to fight. Yeah, that'd be you too.

01:37:38:16 - 01:37:48:22
Daniel Franco
Yeah. Yeah. Is often something we say is like we can't because there are a lot of players in the market that just go straight to price, right? Like we just want to win volume and work and.

01:37:48:27 - 01:37:50:01
Andrew Downs
We can't do that anymore.

01:37:50:01 - 01:37:50:16
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

01:37:50:19 - 01:37:51:18
Andrew Downs
I might have started that one.

01:37:51:18 - 01:38:02:28
Daniel Franco
Yeah, but we're at the we are, we don't do that because we know what our value is. But Then in the same token you have the you in the thought processes while everyone else is doing it. So yeah. And then we didn't.

01:38:02:28 - 01:38:05:10
Andrew Downs
Work and get big and it cost a value.

01:38:05:10 - 01:38:15:08
Daniel Franco
Yeah. Correct. Hundred percent. Right. Beautiful. Let's go into some quickfire questions before we we round up. So where we are big rate is here do you rate much your.

01:38:15:10 - 01:38:21:12
Andrew Downs
Outlook when I fly I read a hard copy. Yeah. Hefty. Yeah but I do a lot of audiobooks now.

01:38:21:12 - 01:38:25:20
Daniel Franco
Yeah. So what are you rating listening to right now.

01:38:25:23 - 01:38:35:04
Andrew Downs
Well I've just finished I think from a, from a, from a personal point of view, the best book I've just finished is Di with zero.

01:38:35:06 - 01:38:36:13
Daniel Franco
Di with by.

01:38:36:13 - 01:38:43:20
Andrew Downs
Bill Perkins. And that has fundamentally changed my view of life. And it says it says.

01:38:43:23 - 01:38:44:29
Daniel Franco
So I have a zero spend.

01:38:44:29 - 01:38:57:00
Andrew Downs
It'll well spend it, give it away. Do it. You've got to do it before you date. Yeah. And that includes setting up families and grandkids. But yeah, and it's a great read for those out there that.

01:38:57:02 - 01:38:57:25
Daniel Franco
There's.

01:38:57:27 - 01:39:03:18
Andrew Downs
I mean, I think the also used to be those he who dies of the most toys wins. Well this is a different philosophy.

01:39:03:20 - 01:39:18:16
Daniel Franco
I, I I'll say this is it came to me mind there's a butcher down the road from us from my house at Henley Beach and he says, my there's no there's no trailer in the back of the hearse. And I was like, Yeah, absolutely.

01:39:18:16 - 01:39:22:18
Andrew Downs
Someone cried or something that I said, Listen, boys, we never we're not going to get out of this alive.

01:39:22:18 - 01:39:24:01
Daniel Franco
Yeah. So yeah, that's right.

01:39:24:03 - 01:39:32:26
Andrew Downs
The door is, is doing some things and experiences. His experience is are more important than than the material. Yes it Yeah.

01:39:32:29 - 01:39:40:19
Daniel Franco
I couldn't agree more. What's one book that you feel stands out from the crowd. Like what's one that you've recommended more than anything else.

01:39:40:22 - 01:40:00:07
Andrew Downs
Look I've done a few recently. You've got your old favorites, you know, scaling up and harness and you've got good to great comments. But I just finished that book 0 to 1 by Peter to yeah, you know, and to me that's that modern the modern engagement where we're going we're we're moving. I mentioned Gladwell's Tipping point. I think that that's a brilliant book.

01:40:00:09 - 01:40:06:00
Andrew Downs
So I like everything. I get as many recommendations I can, you know, finding time to do.

01:40:06:01 - 01:40:17:02
Daniel Franco
Yeah. What is the is the best way? Peter to 0 to 1 was one of the first books I read when I started. This business is like, yeah, it's been foundational What is one lesson that taking the longest to learn.

01:40:17:04 - 01:40:18:20
Andrew Downs
Uh, saying no.

01:40:18:22 - 01:40:32:26
Daniel Franco
Yes, yes. I know it is tough. I'm glad you didn't say no today, so that's good. If you get out of coffee with one current or historical figure, who would it be?

01:40:32:29 - 01:40:44:01
Andrew Downs
I Think I don't want to be cliche, but because Elon Musk is where he is at the moment in the world, it would be great to have a cup of coffee with him because it's all linked to Peter to Yeah.

01:40:44:03 - 01:40:44:20
Daniel Franco
Yeah, yeah.

01:40:44:23 - 01:40:51:16
Andrew Downs
Also that his how he's disrupted and changed the planet. There's just something different for me.

01:40:51:18 - 01:40:54:20
Daniel Franco
Yeah he's not doing so great with the Twitter or.

01:40:54:22 - 01:41:03:13
Andrew Downs
Or but you know maybe Twitter that's Hey he gets X winners. Yeah. He's entitled to lose loser. Yeah. Not not sure about the Twitter thing myself.

01:41:03:14 - 01:41:14:01
Daniel Franco
Yeah it's, it seems outside of his strategy which is a strange one anyway because I am I do like you on as well if what is some of the best advice that you've ever received.

01:41:14:03 - 01:41:25:11
Andrew Downs
Uh look, the best advice is stay the course. You know, if you've got to, if things aren't doing particularly well. But it looks like you're heading in the right direction. I love the I love the saying stay the course.

01:41:25:11 - 01:41:32:03
Daniel Franco
I of course, you know. Very good. What's one habit that holds you back the most?

01:41:32:05 - 01:41:41:09
Andrew Downs
Want to have a whole shebang? Procrastination, too. Sure, If that's a bad habit. Really shocking procrastinator.

01:41:41:10 - 01:41:42:22
Daniel Franco
Yeah, but it seems like.

01:41:42:27 - 01:41:46:23
Andrew Downs
I'll give a plug to Olivier, who's my new personal assistant. She's brilliant because she does it.

01:41:46:23 - 01:41:47:17
Daniel Franco
She just makes.

01:41:47:20 - 01:41:50:07
Andrew Downs
Me. But yeah, I'm a shocking procrastinator.

01:41:50:14 - 01:41:56:12
Daniel Franco
Were you procrastinating in your early? Is it sage? It seems like you're making decisive decisions and quickly.

01:41:56:14 - 01:42:00:09
Andrew Downs
Oh, yeah. Look, I think procrastination is on. Do it tomorrow. Don't do it today.

01:42:00:09 - 01:42:04:10
Daniel Franco
I Yeah. Yeah. What's your biggest pet peeve?

01:42:04:13 - 01:42:06:05
Andrew Downs
As in having pet now?

01:42:06:05 - 01:42:11:23
Daniel Franco
As in like, Oh, what, what pisses you off the most.

01:42:11:25 - 01:42:26:14
Andrew Downs
People in money. I just people and money. Yeah. I go back to my I think nicest bloke you ever meet and then you have lunch and he says well hang on I had the you had an extra glass of wine than me. Yeah. I don't want have lunch with that person. So that's my pay. Yeah.

01:42:26:14 - 01:42:27:04
Daniel Franco
That's horrible.

01:42:27:05 - 01:42:27:28
Andrew Downs
Go out with the people.

01:42:27:28 - 01:42:28:12
Daniel Franco
Stupid.

01:42:28:16 - 01:42:37:12
Andrew Downs
Look sometimes, unfortunately you go get the group of people and say excuse me, but I, I didn't have any wine and I had. Yeah, I had an entree. It was only three bucks or something. No, not.

01:42:37:17 - 01:42:38:00
Daniel Franco
Now.

01:42:38:00 - 01:42:44:17
Andrew Downs
That's right. $30. No, I don't want to waste my time with those people. That is my pet peeve.

01:42:44:20 - 01:42:46:10
Daniel Franco
How do you reach a point where you do that?

01:42:46:10 - 01:42:51:15
Andrew Downs
I just pay for it. I just go right. You know, I think we might just pay for everything to die and get out.

01:42:51:21 - 01:42:52:28
Daniel Franco
Yeah, that's right. You know.

01:42:52:28 - 01:42:58:28
Andrew Downs
People, they were the calculator. Yeah. Fucking around that, that. So you get me fired up now I can't do it.

01:42:59:01 - 01:43:01:24
Daniel Franco
I Yeah. Or, or is she.

01:43:01:24 - 01:43:05:21
Andrew Downs
Out in the pub Right. Yeah. Yeah. Oh hang on. I'm not sure you're around.

01:43:05:21 - 01:43:06:14
Daniel Franco
It's more Etna.

01:43:06:20 - 01:43:07:06
Andrew Downs
Exactly.

01:43:07:07 - 01:43:13:04
Daniel Franco
Just get it. Yeah. Yeah. The Yes, the 33 of those 27 is the one that.

01:43:13:06 - 01:43:19:08
Andrew Downs
When they bring out a calculator, well they're on their phone now. When they start doing that they've lost me. I want to get them.

01:43:19:10 - 01:43:27:07
Daniel Franco
If you can buy it. Like I hate when choices. This is where this coercion comes from. Household chores. If you I mean, you probably.

01:43:27:07 - 01:43:35:04
Andrew Downs
Would love being a I really love cooking it. And it would it's great when someone's following you, cleaning up the mess. I mean.

01:43:35:08 - 01:43:35:21
Daniel Franco
The clean.

01:43:35:21 - 01:43:44:03
Andrew Downs
Cooking is so fantastic. Yeah. But then when you look back in this party, it's the work and scrape and pots and pans, not get someone to do that.

01:43:44:11 - 01:43:57:19
Daniel Franco
I would order or go to a restaurant on the fact that I don't want to clean up after Mike on that tune. I mean, it's I like I like the act of cooking as well, but I just do not want to clean up after. I hate.

01:43:57:19 - 01:43:59:12
Andrew Downs
It when you say that.

01:43:59:12 - 01:44:06:29
Daniel Franco
One. Now, you've already said this earlier, but what's one word that you absolutely hate?

01:44:07:01 - 01:44:08:00
Andrew Downs
I mean, what did I say?

01:44:08:05 - 01:44:08:22
Daniel Franco
Bureaucracy.

01:44:08:24 - 01:44:10:08
Andrew Downs
Bureaucracy. I'm going to stick with that.

01:44:10:08 - 01:44:10:23
Daniel Franco
You stick with.

01:44:10:24 - 01:44:16:23
Andrew Downs
It. One word I hate or can't and I wouldn't. It was actually kind of it bureaucracy would rate the highest.

01:44:16:24 - 01:44:33:20
Daniel Franco
Yeah. Yeah. My parents one lesson that I learned from my parents was there's no such word as count. And that was that's literally the one thing that they drummed into my whole life. There is no such thing as count. What's the first thing that you would do if you became invisible? Like, this wants to be creepy.

01:44:33:22 - 01:44:39:08
Andrew Downs
You know what I find out the most exclusive event that's happening somewhere in the world.

01:44:39:11 - 01:44:39:22
Daniel Franco
And.

01:44:39:25 - 01:44:40:12
Andrew Downs
And just get.

01:44:40:15 - 01:44:41:05
Daniel Franco
Enjoying it.

01:44:41:06 - 01:44:42:06
Andrew Downs
Right? So it could be that.

01:44:42:06 - 01:44:43:09
Daniel Franco
And listen to the conversation.

01:44:43:09 - 01:44:59:19
Andrew Downs
Could be the Superbowl. It could be, but it would have to be something that it could be a concept you can't get into. What what's the concept There's going to be here. You can't get into the Beatle. What's his name? Paul McCartney. It just I just get on a plane and go somewhere where I couldn't go normally.

01:44:59:21 - 01:45:04:07
Daniel Franco
Brilliant. What's the most useless talent you have?

01:45:04:09 - 01:45:16:16
Andrew Downs
I think it could be it's useless from a business perspective. Could be useful personally, but I can fall asleep with a glass in my hand full of whatever and not spill a drop. That's useless talent, but.

01:45:16:18 - 01:45:17:22
Daniel Franco
You can just fall asleep anyway.

01:45:17:23 - 01:45:33:27
Andrew Downs
I can fall asleep in a chair. Adrian travels with me a lot. He says I cannot believe as soon as we clip the seatbelt on on a plane or something, I just fall asleep. Oh, I'm sorry. And I may have a glass of you could sleep. A very good sleep. That's important. Fall asleep within seconds of hitting the pillow.

01:45:33:27 - 01:45:35:17
Daniel Franco
How many hours would you say that?

01:45:35:20 - 01:45:38:01
Andrew Downs
I'll look. I'd love to get seven. I love to.

01:45:38:06 - 01:45:45:09
Daniel Franco
That. Do you think that your your ability to sleep well is the reason why you haven't suffered from mental health in all my sleep?

01:45:45:12 - 01:45:47:05
Andrew Downs
I love it. I just love sleeping.

01:45:47:08 - 01:45:54:03
Daniel Franco
I'm a shit sober. Yes, it's it's annoying because it's the one thing that you shouldn't get wrong. Like lying down doing nothing. You don't.

01:45:54:06 - 01:45:55:23
Andrew Downs
Get under your magnesia and under your.

01:45:55:23 - 01:46:02:09
Daniel Franco
Feet. Yeah, that's true. Right? My favorite question of the whole podcast. What's your best dead joke now?

01:46:02:12 - 01:46:18:12
Andrew Downs
Yeah, I should joke. Oh, no. To one not running after another. Not and and the one behind says hey, I'm a cashew or something. Something like that. I had one Philip said like the other night I Oh great.

01:46:18:12 - 01:46:21:03
Daniel Franco
Right It was my old cricket goes Yeah.

01:46:21:05 - 01:46:24:00
Andrew Downs
So they use that the other night. Yeah. Say ladies function.

01:46:24:00 - 01:46:24:08
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

01:46:24:08 - 01:46:27:06
Andrew Downs
Well one night chase another high. Ahmed Keshi.

01:46:27:09 - 01:46:30:05
Daniel Franco
The one wants it. I am going to guess. Yeah.

01:46:30:08 - 01:46:33:18
Andrew Downs
Sorry, Philip. I didn't enjoy it very much.

01:46:33:20 - 01:46:58:14
Daniel Franco
Fabulous. Thank you so much, Andrew. And just thank you for sharing your career, your life story. I think seems like this could almost be its own movie, like The Castle with what went on early in the year. But but kudos on on the life and the career that you've you've built in the business that you've built and the jobs that you've created for so many people here in South Australia and across Australia and potentially the world.

01:46:58:14 - 01:47:01:00
Daniel Franco
So I moved on to you and the team and.

01:47:01:00 - 01:47:05:19
Andrew Downs
I thoroughly enjoyed having a chat with Daniel, so it was great to be back. I'm glad I said yes.

01:47:05:19 - 01:47:11:17
Daniel Franco
Thank you. Said yes, brilliant. Um, if people want to get in touch with you, we can link.

01:47:11:17 - 01:47:13:22
Andrew Downs
To look, they don't have my private data.

01:47:13:24 - 01:47:14:21
Daniel Franco
Yet. LinkedIn.

01:47:14:21 - 01:47:17:16
Andrew Downs
Yeah. A lot of people will reach out online to catch them.

01:47:17:16 - 01:47:43:18
Daniel Franco
They sometimes get bombarded constantly on that, but yeah. Beautiful. Thanks, mate, and thank you. Everyone will catch you next time. Thanks for listening to the podcast so you can check out the show notes if there was anything of interest to you and find out more about us at Synergy IQ dot com. So to you, I am going to ask though if you did like the podcast, you would absolutely mean the world to me If you subscribe right and review and if you didn't like it, that's alright too.

01:47:43:20 - 01:47:47:07
Daniel Franco
There's no need to do anything. Thank you guys. All the best.