Creating Synergy Podcast
Creating Synergy brings you engaging conversations and ideas to explore from experts who help businesses adopt new ways of working. Discover innovative approaches and initiatives, new ideas and the latest research in culture, leadership and transformation.
AUGUST 12, 2020
#11 - Michelle Holland on Transform your Culture - Culture Inc: Create a business that delivers results and people love
Transcript
Synergy IQ:
Welcome to creating synergy where we explore what it takes to transform. Whether you are transforming yourself, your team, your business, or your community will connect you with insightful and challenging leaders who share their stories of successful transformations. To give you practical ideas for your own journey, join us for another insightful episode of creating synergy.
Daniel Franco:
Welcome back to The creating synergy podcast. My name is Daniel Franco, I am your host. And today we welcome back Michelle Holland it again, back again. Thank you very much, Michelle, for being here. Michelle is Director Synergy IQ and also the author of three books one being culture, Incorporated, which will culture Inc, I should say, which is create a business that delivers results, and that people love. Today we're going to talk a little bit about the culture and the journey. And what actually does it mean to think about culture? How do we improve culture? How do we do a little bit of a health check on our culture? And what is it all? All things culture within business? culture? So I think we'll start off with the with the burning question, What is your definition of culture? Yeah, within an organization?
Michelle Holland:
I think that's a good way of asking it actually is what's my definition? Because there are a number of different definitions of culture. And I guess, let's take a step back. So culture is actually an anthropological approach methodology, right? So we look at culture, from society point of view, we now have broken that into business culture is well, so you know, there's a, an author called Michael Henderson. And he actually calls himself a corporate anthropologist, anthropologist, which I just love that that's what I want to be as well, called a corporate anthropologist. And one of the quotes that I just love from him is that he says, you know, people often ask me if culture is the new thing in business, and his response is no business is the new thing and culture. Because culture has been around for Emily near COVID. Just his culture just is That's exactly right. So we have cultures in society, we have cultures in the world, and we have cultures, within businesses and within teams. So what is culture? culture, one of the I guess the common sayings about culture is, culture is the way we do things around here. So it is, and it's why we do them that way. So when we think about it in that terminology, so culture is the way we do things around here. And why we do them that way. Really, there's not much in a business that you can think about that isn't culture, because it's the way we do things around here, and why we do them that way. So it comes down to the expectations that are set in the business, it comes down to the interactions we're having with people in the business, the relationships, we build, the intersection between processes, the systems that we've put in to place the structural elements that we've put into place, it's the DNA, essentially, other business. This is why it's actually quite complex to actually look at culture within a business, and understand how to shift and change it if we want to shift and change it, because it really is in every single pore in the organization.
Daniel Franco:
So before we get to the point of wanting to shift and change, why would a culture be not so good?
Michelle Holland:
Look, I think, for me, the most critical part of the culture is is it delivering the results that you want your business to deliver, if your business is delivering the exact results that you want it to deliver. And whatever those results are. And we're talking broadly, not just, we want to make 100 widgets, or we make 100 widgets. But we want to be the, you know, best widget maker in South Australia. Let's say we want to be known for our widgets, we want to have people lining up at the door to work for us to make our widgets, you know, there's a lot of success factors they have to look at. So if we're looking at a broad success factor, the culture needs to be whatever it needs to be to deliver the results that you want to get. So if you want to be the best widget maker, and you want to have people lined up at your door that want to work with you, then then you need a culture that actually supports your people. supports innovation supports productivity supports performance supports the customer experience to enable you to reach those two objectives and targets.
Daniel Franco:
So you saying that those with a culture that's not so great, can still deliver amazing results. So I asked that in a different way. Business a is looking to make $100 million in widget sales. That is our KPI. That's all we care about. The people get treated incorrectly, leadership is all over the shop, there's still a successful business.
Michelle Holland:
Thank you in that one. Yeah, one critical success factor correct. And look, if that is their only critical success factor, and they do have the culture that they need to deliver the result that they want to get. The other results that they will end up having, which are the consequences of that are people will leave, people will feel bad people might put in, you know, claims against them, there might not be as much productivity that actually happens, the customer is not getting the experience that they need. But they might be delivering the number of widgets that they actually want to deliver. So the other headaches that come with it, it's all the other headaches. That's right. So you choose the behavior, you choose the consequences, the same as in culture, you choose the culture, you choose the outcome.
Daniel Franco:
So what's the perfect mix? Is there one,
Michelle Holland:
There is no perfect mix? No, no, but there is better cultures than other cultures. Because if you really look at success factors for a business, then there is the profitability success factor. There is also the customer experience success factor. There is also the sustainability success factor. I'm not going to be here next year, even though I'm you know, I might be making 100 widgets this year. And that's great for me, is that going to be enough for next year to be here? Or in 10 years? Do I have the right kind of leadership in place, etc? So what are the actual success factors? And if we're looking much more broadly, and more, that's what they call the triple bottom line, you know, not just the money, but also, you know, am I doing the right thing for society? Am I doing the right thing for my people? Am I doing the right thing for my customer, then there are different ways of instilling or having a culture that's going to deliver those results as opposed to another. So when you look at something like, say, an organization that's really strong, and sales, and that's their, you know, sales are everything to us, they usually they'll have things like KPIs on the board, they might even have a ranking system, all of those sort of things. They'll have all their the names of the sales people, you know, supposed to hit 100 target, this week, you've hit 120, they've hit the other person's hit 50. So then there's that element of competitiveness that actually happens. So again, they're driving a culture of competitiveness to get a particular result from that. And that might be a good result, as far as one element of success, but not the other elements of success. There's always negative consequences to those kind of cultures. And generally, it's people get burnt out, you know, they might be up stick around for as long, there's a high level of turnover,
Daniel Franco:
with staff turnover, and then the burnout and all the stress levels and everything. Yeah, they're just instantly reduces productivity.
Michelle Holland:
It does well, it's a cost to the business, right. So those negative indicators of the business so those negative outcomes for the business is, you know, when you look at turnover, for example, you lose one staff member, you can lose anything up from their entire salary, by the cost of their entire salary for one year, up to if you lose an executive member that's been with you for 10 years and has been performing for those 10 years, it could be a time six of their, their salary that you're paying them. So if they're on a $300,000 salary, you're losing almost $2 million in one year, because you've lost that one staff member, you know, and that's through productivity efficiencies, getting new people up to scratch getting a new one in like recruitment, all of these
Daniel Franco:
losses, like if it's a really good leader, loss of message,
Michelle Holland:
loss of message, you could lose other people underneath them as well. You lose traction, you lose momentum,
Daniel Franco:
bringing in an inferior leader,
Michelle Holland:
I guess as well. That's exactly right. Everything could change from there on in. So if you are choosing a culture that's only delivering on an economic outcome, and you're forgetting everything else, then the economic outcome will eventually be impacted by all these other measures. So really, when you're focused only there, then it's a very short term focus. So when we talk about, you know, a culture that actually is useful, we call it an effective culture. It's effective. Yeah, right. And that's what we want to aim for. We want to aim for effective culture. So what is an effective culture? Well, that's essentially a culture that's delivering more than just financial outcomes. This is the culture that the positive outcomes and the positive impact is more than the negative impact. All right. So things like people are interacting in a way, that's not detrimental to the other person. All right. So it could be that, you know, when we're engaging in learning, you know, learning is something that's encouraged within effective outcomes. And learning means that I need to get feedback on my, my performance. So whether I get feedback, because I can see the outcome of what I'm doing, or I get feedback from other people on the impact of what I'm doing, regardless of how it comes and need to get that feedback. If I want to be focused on learning, effective cultures are focused on learning. So that means that we have to have people within that business that are able to give effective feedback. And not just feedback of you didn't do that and really frustrated me go do it next time. But feedback that actually is about how I can grow, how I can learn how I can develop from the information that I'm gathering. That's important. Absolutely. So effectiveness in culture is more important than you know, anything else. I guess where things get a bit muddy is when you go, okay, what's a good culture? What's a bad culture? You know, is there bad cultures? And you hear this a lot? You know, I am,
Daniel Franco:
what is the autocratic type culture? Do as I say,
Michelle Holland:
yeah, yeah, and look, they have negative impacts on the people within the business. So, as soon as there's negative impacts on the people within the business, the people report that the culture is bad. So it's, it is really interesting, because this is where we start going, Well, that's actually just one in put into culture. So the leadership is one input. In culture, there's all these other inputs into culture as well. But that is such a big impact on the people that are within the business, that it has a almost a, an exponential negative impact on everyone else. So if you've got leadership that aren't skilled, that are autocratic, that are micromanagement, you know, micromanagers, that sort of thing, then you're going to get those higher levels of negative impact on people. And therefore the people will report that the culture is poor, because they're not able to do their job. Because the other impacts of culture is the processes, the systems, the ability to deliver, you know, all of those elements. If I can't do that, unless I get my manager involved, then there's a frustration that happens, you know, and then frustration creates conflict with other people, because I'm frustrated, you're frustrated, so we get frustrated at each other, you know, and there's all this blow up that ends, it's this massive ripple effect that happens across businesses. And what we're wanting to do with culture is go Okay, what are the barriers to getting effective outcomes? What are the barriers to having great interactions? What are the barriers to me being able to deliver the best I can for my customer. And those barriers, if they're, they're part of the culture, we can remove them, then the culture gets more effective, it gets better.
Daniel Franco:
In your book, culture, Inc, you describe the form, flow and feel of a business really, actually opened my eyes in a way of thinking that culture when I when I read it, and I listen to you speak quite a fair bit, the piece of way, and I have heard you spoken. Now I'd like you to elaborate on this a little bit more. When you talk about the people that the business like I really love my leader, I love my manager, I love the people I work with. It's really fantastic. But I just don't like the systems that that like the process, it takes 16 signatures to get something over the line. So it's a bit of a push and pull between what is a good culture? And it is a bit is you saying culture is all connected in your form flow and feel? Can you talk more about that? That's a really interesting point.
Michelle Holland:
Yeah, absolutely. So the way that I look at the so what I said before, was, it's the way we do things around here. And that's why we do them that way. So I break that down into what I call the form flow and feel elements of the business. So form is what we use to form the business. So it's the foundation stones of the business. So that's the structural elements that are holding our culture in place. So things like the vision, the values, the strategy, the governance, you know, the leadership decision, making that sort of stuff, keeps our culture in place strategy, the strategy. Yeah, yeah. So these are all the structural elements that have created the expectation for Culture, then we've got the flow. So that's the, the way the work flows through the business, essentially. So it's okay, we've got the structural elements of the strategy, how do we actually operationalize that strategy. So these are things that we use, like the systems that we use the processes, be interactions is where the behavior outcomes come into it. So how I behave at work, how I interact with each other, you know, all of those kind of elements of relationship part of it, it's the interaction pieces between the processes, you know, as the, is there overlaps in processes, if there, is there a disconnect, is there, a disconnect between teams, you know, silos, and all that sort of stuff. So this is how the work flows through the business. The feel is then the it's almost the outcome of those two things. So it's, are people engaged? Are they motivated by the environment? We have motivation from within? But is the environment enabling us to be motivated? Is it enabling us? Or is it holding us back? It's the outcomes, it's the customer experiences, the employee experience. So I believe that the employee experience is directly correlated to the customer experience. So this is why, you know, we talked about what why what is culture even matter? Like what does it matter how the processes flow within a business? Well, it matters because the impact of a very slow frustrating process is that you have slow frustrating outcomes, which means that people are frustrated, which means that when they're talking to their customer, they're going oh, well, yeah, we'll be able to deliver that. But maybe in six months or so. Yeah.
Daniel Franco:
Oh, that for the customer B amount of times, I've gotten frustrated with a business because I said, Yeah, there'll be a four week turnaround. I'm like, it's literally come over and push a button, or something like
Michelle Holland:
That's exactly right. But it's all the internal processes. So the 16 signatures, you know, it's all the meetings that they have to have because of that, you know, it's it's really it is a frustration for your customer. This is why that flow. Sorry, that has an impact on your brand image and everything because Absolutely, it's massive. Yeah. I mean, one of the chapters in the book is actually your culture is your brand. Yeah. And that's the reality. You know, I mean, when you think about, you know, businesses, we're talking about brand and differentiation between one business and another. It's the brand is the way in which they operationalize, you can have three companies that produce cars, but the way in which they produce that car and get it to market is going to set them apart from the other two car manufacturers,
Daniel Franco:
just the way the people who work within the business talk about
Michelle Holland:
it. That's exactly right. Are they excited to be part of this business? Are they not? Before you go into a no, you know, I'm an apple fan, but you go into an apple store, and you deal with the people that are in the Apple Store, it's very different to
Daniel Franco:
do cold like
Michelle Holland:
it is in cold culture, right? So it very much is, you can see that they're really connected to their brand. They're really connected to their business, they really a certain kind of person is is employed within those stores, you interact with them. It's a retail store, very different than walking into a David Jones or a Kohl's or Maya or Kmart. And dealing with the people there. They're very different field. And that's culture and action. And that's where it impacts on the customer. So people go into the Apple Store to have the experience of being in the Apple Store. We don't do the same in Kohl's. Nobody go into Kohl's.
Daniel Franco:
I mean, we as customers, understand Apple's mission, don't we? We get out there trying to change the world. Absolutely. Yes, sir. Yeah, it's amazing.
Michelle Holland:
I mean, you look at it, oh, it's it's such a different that that part of you know, the brand aspect and the different the different outcomes, or the different outwardly looking part of the business is all as a result of the internal workings of the business. So when you look at Tesla, for example, I know you're a big fan,
Daniel Franco:
although he's probably a bit more autocratic. But anyway,
Michelle Holland:
he is particularly but when you look at the culture of the business, so that's a leadership. We look at the culture of the business, what he's instilled in the culture of the business is the customer user experience first, which is very similar to Apple. He's
Daniel Franco:
a very good visionary as well.
Michelle Holland:
That's right. So you go to a Ford dealership and there's a bunch of cars just lying around outside. There's people wandering in and out of them. You go to a Tesla
Daniel Franco:
is there even a Tesla dealership,
Michelle Holland:
there's a Tesla dealership in Sydney, you go there, it's in the main it's in Mark Martin place. It's actually in a retail store. Or the car is inside, you know, they've got these three cars that you walk into, you can sit in them, you play with them. And if you want to drive one, then you book an appointment to take it out on a test drive, you know, this is whole different.
Daniel Franco:
If you want to buy on you can buy it, you have to buy it online.
Michelle Holland:
That's exactly right. So it's a very, very different experience. The Tesla is a car. Yeah, it's a different kind of car, but it's just a car the future, it's never gonna win this
Daniel Franco:
argument. It's just a car. He does the same with SpaceX as well, which is his other business. And you're not, you know, I could go on and on all day, but you walk into the, he says, got the mission of putting human beings. So the mission, I guess, is human, he doesn't believe that human beings should be confined to planet earth, right. And so he wants to populate Mars as his first point of call. So as you walk through the doors of SpaceX, there's humans have have spread around on Mars. And there's a big picture as you're walking through the door. So the mission and strategy and the vision is there. Yeah, the moment you walk through the door, this is where we want to be. This is where we want to get to, if you're working here, this is what you're part of that seems successful.
Michelle Holland:
Absolutely. And that is how culture is established. So when we look at that vision and mission and the big picture of Mars, and the fact that, you know, that inspirational aspect of the vision is very, very forefront. That's the structure elements of the culture that they're trying to create there. whether they've done it on purpose or not, that is the culture that they're creating. And therefore, they have systems and practices and processes to enable that to happen. They couldn't populate Mars, if they had to get 16 signatures. Every time they wanted to make an innovation.
Daniel Franco:
They couldn't populate Mars if they weren't allowed to crush their rockets.
Michelle Holland:
That's exactly right. Yeah, if there was a blame culture, they couldn't do it, because they have, there's a necessity for an innovation outcome. Therefore, they have to have systems and processes and behaviors and mindset and thinking in place that represents the outcome of innovation. So this is where culture is a big part of the play, if innovation, let's say, is one of the expectations. So that's part of the visions part of the strategy as part of the value set, structural elements expectations, and then we have a business that has a lot of process, a lot of cumbersome systems, a lot of management, interplay, particularly in decision making. So for me to make him do something new, I have to get signed off by my team leader, who has to get sign off from the general manager who has to get sign off from the CEO, before and then of course, we got to go to finance and get the budget, and all of these sort of things. So my new idea, that's really, I'm expected to have new ideas, because innovations and strategy innovations in the the values, innovations in the vision, and yet the way in which I'm working, so how I work here doesn't support that, then your culture is going to unravel. So this is where the three things need to play, right. So we need to have innovation in the expectations form, we need to have our systems that are set up so that we can operationalize and be innovative.
Daniel Franco:
So it's almost like setting it up. It is to get out of the way of what we're totally trying to achieve. What not not to get out a way to enable to enable it to happen. Yeah.
Michelle Holland:
So when we look at the systems, the systems are, how we recruiting people in who've got the ability, the capabilities, the capacity, the mindset, the thinking, to be innovative. And then we bring them into the business. And then we need to make sure that the processes, the structures, the management, the decision making, all of those things are fist facilitate that person who's got this great thinking mindset around innovation, to be able to be innovative.
Daniel Franco:
It's amazing how much recruitment is so paramount to the success of a business. And the recruitment process, I should say, because you can go and hire anyone that's technical, right? But if that technical person is almost cancers to the business, I guess it starts eating it away from the inside, and that's a problem but if you've hired someone who is a visionary and interested in Learning and interested in happy to make mistakes and bought into the you know, the Jim Collins is on the bus? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's completely different genetic makeup of that business, isn't it?
Michelle Holland:
It will it can be as long as the culture enables that person to actually play to their strengths, yes. Because if you bring somebody like that, I'll pick on government for now, right. So there's a lot of government departments that have innovation in their value set. And yet, when you walk into those government organizations, if you've got an innovation mindset, and you walk in there that you want to get things done, right, and you've got this huge purpose and meaning that sits behind why you want to get things done as well, because you're building a community. And then you come up against all of this, the processes that I have to go through to make a new thing happen, I go through the procurement process that takes six months to be able to purchase something new, or get a new consultant on board that's going to help innovate in a certain area, I have to get, you know, everybody to sign off around me, I have to get a committee together before if 1012 people in the room to consult with them before I'm able to make a choice to do something different. So I might be innovative and have great innovation mindset. But the system that I'm working within is not set up to help me to be innovative. So I ended up going one in two ways. I end up becoming, I go, I become part of the system or go rogue. And you know, when you go rogue, then you're seen as a problem instead of seen as somebody who's delivering on great things. I worked for an organization years ago, and there was one guy in the air, he was absolutely rogue, and he delivered amazing things, right. But he was only able to deliver those amazing things cuz he went rogue. And it was a real contrast. And people were like, Ha, the stuff that he's done is amazing. They couldn't stand him though, because he kept going rogue. He didn't follow the processes. It's like, well, we follow the processes, you wouldn't have got that outcome.
Daniel Franco:
Is there a third option there, though? The third option is leave they leave?
Michelle Holland:
Well, yeah, I guess the third option is leave. And probably the fourth option is they eventually get a faction together to enable the change to happen. So if that new person is far enough up the tree to have influence that they need to have, and they can make a change, then they'll make a change.
Daniel Franco:
I think the leaving ones important for me, it stands out because you hiring these great people. And it's the old Steve Jobs, quote, you know, you don't hiring great people and tell them what to do. Get them to hire
Michelle Holland:
people who are better than
Daniel Franco:
Absolutely. So if you're hiring these people, and they are feeling stifled in their role, you've you've spent all that time and effort and you talk about money and turnover from just the recruitment process, and most of people and whatnot, only to see them walk out the door and you've potentially lost one of them, you potentially lost someone that could have changed the way the business moved forward and increase productivities and increase profits and everything like that, because the system was unable to change. The government's a tough one because they spend customer the community's money, isn't it really. So it's always slow moving?
Michelle Holland:
Well, it's, it is interesting that you bring that up, because what I have found, in my experience, I've worked with a lot of government organizations and been involved, you know, in a, whether I've worked for them, or consulted with them. And just watching the political environment that we we are, you know, within, there is a lot of wasted money spent trying to stop wasting money a lot, you know, you think about the amount of money that's actually spent in these committees that are put together so that, you know, there's a robust decision making around spending public money, you've probably spent more in those committees and the wasted time. This is like the workforce wastage in a lot of this space is huge, the efficiency wastage is huge, you know, the, the amount of dollars that are spent in trying to make one decision to spend, you know, $100,000 probably almost equates to the $100,000 Plus, it's, you know, delayed the outcome by six months down the track. So, all of a sudden, the decision that was being made six months ago, is not valuable anymore, particularly in the world of technology. Like if you're making a decision six months after the ideas come up, that idea is already redundant.
Daniel Franco:
There's new technology out too late. The question I'm gonna ask you then is is the importance of the Public community understanding the business, the government Corporation's vision, right? With that would allow the government to take more risk if they were transparent. And so this is what we're trying to achieve. Yeah. Look, are you always going to get the people that are going to tear it down?
Michelle Holland:
It is a very complex, wicked problem. Yeah. Right. So there's no one? Yes, that's right. So this is what you would call an adaptive complex change or adaptive challenge. Because there are so many moving parts in it, there is one element of the government, we elect the government to perform on our behalf. So therefore, there has to be an element of leadership in that. And sometimes leadership means delivering what we didn't know, we needed, you know, and convincing us and influencing us that it is actually what's right for us. You know, that goes back to the Henry Ford quote, you know, if I asked people what they wanted, they would have told me faster horses. Yeah. But I provided them with a motorcar, you know, it was a very different outcome. So there is an element of a lack of leadership in that we we hire them to act on our behalf in our in our best interests. There's the four year survival mentality of politicians. So if I'm gonna get hired again, and it's hired, right, because it's a job, I'm getting paid good money to be in this jobs, what can I achieve for four years? What can I achieve, that's actually going to get me hired next time round, so very short term thinking, and whereas to be really good political leader, you need to have a very long term thinking, you know, to do the right thing for the country, I have to be thinking 20 years into the future, and what's going to be right 20 years in the future 50 years in the future, but that ain't gonna get me elected next time.
Daniel Franco:
That's right. So this is a this is a very close, we're seeing what's going on with the Australian scope, Australian government at the moment with COVID. Right. And so there's this big promotion, or we're saving you $129 on your water bill, my first way of thinking and having previously worked in the utility, my first thinking was, okay, you're gonna save us, each person in the public $129 on a water bill per year. What are we actually now not delivering? What are we stopping? What are we what future are we holding back? Absolutely. And so yeah, so that's the short, I guess, the short term thinking coming out,
Michelle Holland:
it is very short term thinking. But that gets paid that gets politicians elected again. And look, if you take this, then because that's a culture, right. So the culture that we have is that when we don't trust politicians to do the right thing. So therefore, there's a expectation that politicians will be completely visual on everything that they're doing. So there's this two way street that's going, we don't trust you. So you have to prove your worth to us. So they're constantly trying to prove their worth to us, which means that they have to do short term thinking. So there's this like, it's almost like a hamster wheel. So if you think about that, in the context of an organization, it's the same thing. If I, as a staff member, don't trust the managers are going to be doing the right thing for me, I'm constantly going to be watching them. If the manager is constantly feel watched, then they might not make the decisions and changes that need to be made. Because they're being watched. And they think that they're gonna upset somebody, you know. So there's this just this hamster wheel that ends up happening. And this is where culture is so difficult to shift because it is it does permeate into everything that we do, and every decision that we make. So if we're in an environment, let's say that isn't collaborative. That is a blame. Like there's a lot of blame and shame that actually happens within the business. And, you know, when we say blame and shame as well, that stuff isn't the overt scary stuff that we see on the news, blame and shame happens in most organizations that we walk into a see it all the time, even if it's just the perception of blame and shame. You know, I don't know how many conversations I've had with people going. I know I can't do that, because I'm going to get into trouble and, okay, what's the fear? I will say to them, oh, well, you know, they'll might lose my job. I said, Okay, so how many people have been terminated in the, the, this workplace because of that particular thing? Oh, I think there was a guy like 15 years ago, that was terminated because of that, like 15 years ago is a long time. You know, I worked for a CEO who had a reputation like he was like one of these. You know, he had this scary reputation for being there been a bit of a excuse the French of bastard, right? And I worked with him and he was a very innovative thinker and he was very fast moving and absolutely, he would hold you accountable and he'd kick your ass if you didn't get the right thing happening. But he would also celebrate when you did. But there was this real fear in the organization about are you guys gonna get rid of us or whatever? And I would say to them, how many people in the last 10 years? Do you think he's terminated? Because of what you're talking about? was a big fat zero, a big fat zero. So I said, that's the worst case scenario for you in an organization. What's the best case scenario?
Daniel Franco:
Take something pretty extreme for it to get it?
Michelle Holland:
That's exactly right. Yeah. But there was this fear because of the blame and shame because the blame and shame tends to be a little bit more underhanded. So, you know, we're in those kind of environments, it's hard to make change, because when we want to make a change, so we'll talk about culture shift now. So we need to shift around how we're doing the work, right? So I say the why we're doing the work, the expectation is we want to be innovative, how we're doing the work is, well, we're not able to do that, because of all the systems and practices. Therefore the outcome is, I feel like I'm not able to be innovative here. Because I'll get blamed if I try something or the processes, don't let me or I'm going to get the no straightaway. So that's how I'm feeling. So I then go, Well, we need to make a change with that. So do we make a change in the expectations? Or we could do and just take away innovation? And then the system flows a little bit more, right? It's like, okay, innovation wasn't what we actually wanted. Or we go, yes, innovation is definitely what we want. How do we need to change the systems and practices to change the systems and practices that have to be willing to be brave, and be innovative,
Daniel Franco:
and have a budget, and,
Michelle Holland:
and all those things. But then to do that I have to go through this cultural system that I'm playing within to make that change? It becomes frustrating, I don't bother.
Daniel Franco:
Yeah. So this is we waste money that's trying to save money.
Michelle Holland:
So to change your culture, you're changing your culture from within the culture that you're actually working. So it's a real, it's a it's a tough shift.
Daniel Franco:
Yeah. You work with many businesses trying to help them improve culture. We've had, we've often had this discussion, where we get called Synergy IQ gets called to come in to help improve a culture of a business. Take them from good to great, because we're always getting called by a really forward thinking leaders, we often get spoken to, from certain people around the traps, saying you need to go and work with such and such business, because there's a really terrible culture. And our response is always all whenever we're going to get a call from from that leader. That's
Michelle Holland:
right, we only get called in to help culture with good leaders. Why is that? Because the reason they're good leaders is because they recognize that culture is important,
Daniel Franco:
but their culture is all probably already half decent, if they've got a good leader in place. So this is the this is the it's what I meant. Yeah, it is
Michelle Holland:
the rub. And look, I think the most toxic cultures are led by toxic leaders, right? That's the reality. And those are the companies that generally culture change. People don't get called into the people who get called into those businesses or lawyers. They're the ones that go into those businesses.
Daniel Franco:
For the people who work for these businesses, what is the suggestion? How do they manage, get out, get out,
Michelle Holland:
if it's toxic,
Daniel Franco:
get out. But if you're passionate about the cause of what the business is doing, it's toxic, then what happens? Look,
Michelle Holland:
we're going into a whole different place now, which is really, if it's toxic, and what I classify as toxic is very much in their legal sense of the term. So you know, there's bullying, there's harassment, there's sexism, there's racism, there's, you know, all of those negative bullying, there's, you know, health issues or safety issues, etc, etc. So those outcomes are toxic. Yeah, they're, they're toxic. And, you know, if there's no ability to make change, then the for your own personal safety, you need to get out, you know, and the more people that get out, the business will will either go We need to do something about this, or we're going to close up shop.
Daniel Franco:
Yeah, that's the reality, whether you're the CEO, whoever, my somebody, yeah, then we've got a democratic
Michelle Holland:
ecosystem. Absolutely. And, and it is an ecosystem. That's, that's the word to use for this. So, you know, those kind of businesses aside, when we walk into the businesses that we actually get called into, they're not toxic. You know, even though sometimes people will say the the culture is toxic. It's not actually it's probably not as effective as It could be, it's not as comfortable as
Daniel Franco:
the word effective versus Yeah,
Michelle Holland:
yeah. And it's not enjoyable. You know, for many people, you know, there's a lot of frustration in it, there might be anger, because there's frustration, anger, you get conflict. And when you get conflict, again, you get anger and frustration. So it's this, you know, round about, they're not, that's not what I classify as toxic. I've been in this game for way too long to go. That's kind of natural human behavior. Yeah, it is. And it's just that is actually where a lack of there's a lack of leadership is a lack of management, there's a lack of capability, there's lack of trust, there's a lack of look, looking at systems in the way that actually are they supporting or stopping us from being able to do our job. There's an apathy sometimes. So that's why I think one of the most dangerous things in cultures and organizations is apathy. I was years ago, I was sitting when I was quite new into the HR space. And I remember sitting in this big HR department in a big organization, I was an employee at the time. And they'd already gone through maybe two or three shifts and change, you know, in this in this HR space, you know, it was it going to be devolved out to the managers is going to be centralized back and forth, back and forth. So they brought in this consultant come in to, you know, look at the whole structure and did a structural review. And I remember the, the, the HR director at the time standing there with this consultant, and they were talking about the changes that were being made, and what was coming next and all of this sort of stuff. And there was silence, there was not one question, from anybody in that room. It was complete silence. And the two people standing there went, Ah, well, it seems to be that everybody understands what's going on. So we might as well you know, we'll wrap up the wrap up this meeting and move on. And I was sitting there as a junior HR person going, Oh, my God, there is nothing worse than silence. Because absolutely, you know, if there's silence in all of those conversations, people have given up, they just don't care anymore. Do a live, I don't care. They're planning what's on their resume, they're thinking about when they're going to be able to apply for the next job, they're going out or they're just turning up presenteeism, you know, there's turn up, do whatever they need to click their paycheck and
Daniel Franco:
go, this is just yeah, now the change is
Michelle Holland:
death to organization that is silence. You know, so that if you're talking about toxic, that's almost You know, one of the more toxic thing is apathy. But so, you know, really good leaders tend to bring us in, because what they actually do is they recognize that the business isn't as efficient as it could be. They recognize that there is a, you know, maybe a transformation that they need to make, maybe that the management of certain areas isn't working as well as it could, there might be conflict that they see happening somewhere. It might be that there is, you know, an area within the business that doesn't seem to be delivering what they need to be delivering. There's conversation about silos, like teams aren't working together, you know, all this sort of stuff. It doesn't mean nothing's happening in the business. There's still lots that's going on, you know, most government organizations, and you know, all of those private companies and whatnot, even if they don't have the most effective or efficient culture outcomes. They're still delivering stuff.
Daniel Franco:
Yeah, people are still busy all day. You say the good to great model.
Michelle Holland:
Good to Great
Daniel Franco:
they're doing is already good. It's good. getting him to great. Yeah,
Michelle Holland:
yeah. I mean, the interesting thing I find this is a Jim Collins quote, is good is the enemy of great. And I think that's what I see more often than toxicity. toxicity is one of those things where you go, alright, I can see, I can see the termites, if I can see the termites and that would you know, that entire wood is rotten, right? So if I can see the termites we're in trouble. That's toxic. Yeah, we're in big trouble here is a lot of change that needs to happen. But in that kind of situation, it's like, Hey, I really see the termites, but I think there's something going on here. I think, I'm sure I can hear them once you there's something going on a bit looks a bit softer. So it's really about understanding where that actually is where the where the, I guess critical pain points are and the real pain points, not the perceived ones.
Daniel Franco:
So I'm a CEO of a business new CAC have done 100 days and I've realized my first 100 days and I've realized that the business isn't where it needs to be, and I want to take it on a journey. Where do I start?
Michelle Holland:
So I guess that's the savvy CEO that recognizes that Culture is part of this process as well as part of it, they sometimes recognize that there's, you know, it's the people side of culture that they recognize. Because of those, you know, under lying kind of issues there might be bubbling to the surface. So they hear this stuff, but they haven't quite seen it yet. Where they start is having a really clear understanding of where they want to go. That's really important. I'm a big believer in if you don't know where you want to go, the direction that you take, you could go all over the shop.
Daniel Franco:
So it's understanding current state and future state.
Michelle Holland:
Well, it's firstly is understanding future state. So you know, if you're, say you, you know, you want to go to Sydney, you have to have a that in mind that you're going to Sydney, to enable you to plan how to get to Sydney. If you don't know if you're going to go to Sydney, Melbourne, or Brisbane, and just kind of head
Daniel Franco:
and say, my current state here in Adelaide, yeah, my
Michelle Holland:
current state is in Adelaide, and I'm going to head east, but I'm not quite sure where I'm going to end up and it's like, oh, I've ended up in Melbourne. Yeah, it was back in the 90s. A lot of fun. You know, and that could be a way of getting somewhere, if you actually don't know where you want to go, then you end up somewhere. But really, if you really want to go to Sydney, you need to know that before you leave. Because then you know which plane to get on or which road to get on? Or how far are you going to drive and how much, you know, system. So. So that, for me is the most important thing. Where do I actually want to be? So
Daniel Franco:
again, it comes back to purpose, vision, vision, strategy, strategy?
Michelle Holland:
That's exactly right.
Daniel Franco:
So that's the form. Yeah, that's
Michelle Holland:
the form elements. So we really want to look at the form first. So we look at what's the vision? What are the values that support the vision? What's the strategy that supports the vision we're actually going to? And then what's the governance around that? And how do we actually make decisions around that. And then from there, as well as the structural elements, so there might be an organizational structure or a team design structure or design structure that needs to be understood also, to enable them the flow to actually happen, because that will be but too many organizations start with organizational structure review, and think that's going to solve their problems. It doesn't. It's that's just an outcome,
Daniel Franco:
getting the strategy, right,
Michelle Holland:
getting the strategy, right, getting the objectives, right, getting the vision and mission, right, getting all the expectations. So you know, in that state, so values are about setting the expectations of behavior. That's really what it is. So it's not enough to go, we're going to be you know, innovative is our value. It's what does innovative look like in action in our business? And if innovation looks like, we just want to chip away and make, you know, continuous improvement activities, probably have continuous improvement instead of innovation. Yeah, but at least it's described. So it's not like, oh, okay, somebody from Facebook comes in and goes, whoo, innovation, great, I'm gonna go innovate. And off they go. And then they get stymied, you know, halfway through, because it's actually no, no, it's just continuous improvement that we want. So being able to really operationalize those values into behaviors. That's the expectation setting. expectation.
Daniel Franco:
I remember you saying once about even just the when you are thinking or analyzing the values of a business, when you use the the wording away value in front of the actual words. Yeah, then that's when it actually because so we value innovation. We value safety, I guess. Safety? Yeah, that's it is fundamental, because there's so much like, honesty and truth and ease, respect and all these things. They should just be Shouldn't I just should you just respect people? Yeah,
Michelle Holland:
they're, they're what I would call the the vanilla, vanilla values or the Google set values, you know? Yeah. So those kind of baseline human values, we can have that expectation that trust, respect, integrity, honesty, those are just baseline human values. And we want those baseline human values in our people. We don't have to have them in our values company value set to expect them in our people.
Daniel Franco:
Well, it should be an expectation. I think, like if you are working for this business is expected that you respect your peers. It is expected that you try to build a trusting relationship. Yeah, so to ask anything different of that is crazy, I think.
Michelle Holland:
Yeah. Well, I think you know, just having those expectations of being a decent human. Yeah,
Daniel Franco:
that'd be a jerky.
Michelle Holland:
Jerk. Yeah, Don't be a jerk. That's kind of it. It really Because my favorite way of explaining culture is don't be a jerk to get shit done. That's really what it's about when you break it really simply down. But so that's where to start is actually really looking at what what am i wanting to achieve? Where do I want to go to? And what are the expectations that I'm gonna set for my business? What am I going to set?
Daniel Franco:
Where am I, and it doesn't just have to be a CEO does it? It could be CIO, CFO CIO, could be a manager of a team project. It's about getting the right culture on a specific project that you're delivering. Or if you're looking at a digital transformation program, we want to Yeah, because, I mean, we've said it once before. And many times, again, if you have the vision, strategy, and objectives, clear and communicated upfront, the rest will seem to fall into place.
Michelle Holland:
Well, it can do, as long as that is the targeted outcome, what ends up happening in businesses, and usually, when you're coming in and doing culture change, it's because the business has been well established for quite some time. So it might be that the expectations were put into place, you know, 20 years ago. And the expectation was that we will behave in a certain way and innovative way or a collaborative way, or whatever. But over time, we've put all of these systems and processes and practices in place, which actually stop us from being able to meet those targets. And the reason that we do that sort of stuff is we manage by fear, we manage by x, we don't manage by exception, we manage by rule. So you know, for example, you know, someone's stolen money out the till that one person stole money out the till, therefore, instead of saying, Don't steal money out the till, and you need to now leave the business, we say, I'm going to write a process and a policy, that stealing money out the till is is wrong. And these are all the steps you now have to go through to actually get money out of the tail. So we put a 10 step process in place that needs signed off from the manager for the other 50 people that are in the business. Because that one person took money out the till we do this constantly in businesses, we make a policy for the one percenters instead of making a policy for the 19
Daniel Franco:
I saw this at a previous business, and you will know which business talking about where someone actually slipped and fell in the showers. And those those changes and changes and stuff fell in the showers. And so they banned showering. Yeah. Yeah, you know, and you just think to yourself, that's one incident in two or 3000 people that go to work every single day, you're gonna have the old accident, you know, it could have been as simple as just put non slip stuff on the floor. Absolutely. But instead went down the track of Rado, we're just gonna be completely. Yeah. So it was it was an interesting call. Yes. And it wasn't well received. Yes,
Michelle Holland:
yeah. And it's constant like they this happens in businesses all the time that we policy for the 1% rather than 99%, which means that we now have a layer cake of policies and procedures and systems that we have to actually get through to just do our job. Yeah, there's so many people's jobs out there that are just managing process, their whole job, like 40 hours a week, you know, 100 grand a year, maybe just managing a process. Yeah. Because that process is in place, because we think that we need it to stop people from doing what we don't feel like we can trust them to do. You know, it's crazy. Yeah, it's just crazy. So, you know, these are the things that stop us from enabling those expectations to happen. So the expectations are first step, the next step is current state. And current state needs to look at not only what the people are feeling about the business, but how we're actually producing the outcomes for the business. And that's much more important. I find more often than not, the culture and the true culture issues are in that flow area. Not in the field area and not in the the form area. Yeah, it's the I've now layer cake to these processes, so that nothing can actually happen. Therefore, I'm frustrated. I'm frustrated because I can't get you know, anything done the procurement team stopping me from getting my job done, or the procurement team are utilizing that layer cake of processes that have been put in place from people previously.
Daniel Franco:
Is it also the connection that there is no real line of sight in the flow area, like the process area to the actual strategy? Yes. So we're just doing work for the sake of connection. Oh, yeah. The greater good
Michelle Holland:
Yeah. 100%
Daniel Franco:
Yeah, it's about cleaning that area. It's cleaning that up.
Michelle Holland:
Yes, absolutely. And this is the this is the challenge for culture shift, because when we start looking at what actually needs to change, because it's not just that it's the decisions of the leader. So the leader is going to have to say, All right, I'm going to get rid of three out of the 10 processes, because actually, those three processes are holding us back from enabling what we're doing. But to do that, they then have to increase the trust that they have, be able to let go of their, you know, their control, maybe over the situation, they have to change their own behavior, their own mindset around it, to enable that decision to actually happen. So there's an individual shift that needs to happen to enable the culture shift to happen as well. And this is where the interplay between capability, leadership and behaviors is so important in shifting all of this change. We know that to shift a culture, you have to change the systems and processes and structure. And we know that the systems and processes and practices won't shift unless the behavior and leadership capabilities shift. So this is where it all interplays. And that's why, when you know, I quite often joke that culture is like an octopus with, you know, 10, hit 10 heads and 80 legs, right. So that's kind of what it's like, because it intermingles with every single thing. And when you start unpicking one bit, you can see another bit start to unravel. And then you can see somebody else shutting down shop, because they're like, oh, you're trying to change my stuff. And that's really impacting on me. And that's the ecosystem. Totally,
Daniel Franco:
absolutely take away the bugs, and then all of a sudden, the worms and the birds don't eat and then that's exactly the bees in oil, whatever. So I'm very interested in understanding, like to see or later of a business, let's not talk CEOs later, the business comes to you and says, Michelle, the culture of the business, I'm really interested in how we can improve. Yeah. What what do you what is the services that you offer? Can you go in there and do like a health check? Do you go in there and just completely do a whole brand new brand spanking transformation? Like what it what is? How to Yeah, what does it look like? Yeah,
Michelle Holland:
so normally, we start with a health check on it. And that's usually just going through those form flow and feel and seeing where they're at with it. So that's an element that we can we can work with businesses, and then what that does is actually provide some recommendations for next steps. And then the next steps might be alright, let's figure out if the expectations are where you want them to be. If not, we do a vision might do a revision refresh, we might do a values refresh, we might take the values and actually operationalize them into behaviors, that's quite often what we do. Because you know, that diverse set of values, it's beautiful on the, you know, in the wall, but they don't necessarily have them operationalized in their business. So that's part of it. We'll then look at Okay, well, how does that then translate into strategy to have a clear strategy that people understand? What are they aiming towards? Is that then aligned then to your planning process as well? So does the strategy flow into your business plans? Does your business plans flow into personal plans? So these are all, you know, structural elements, so we have a look at that. And that all comes from that health check. So we'll have a look at the structural elements first, you know, see where they're at. I walked into one business a few years ago, and they redesigned all of their strategies, rather redone their vision, and redone their strategy, which was great. And then I went into each of the departments, and each of the departments had done a vision values and strategy set. So there was a vision values and strategy for the business. And then each of the seven departments had a vision values and, and strategy set. And I was saying to them, well, what wins? At the end of the day, what wins? What are your people guided by all the department set? So why are they employed by this business? Like, why is it not consistent? So when they then work with one of these other departments, who's You know, you're saying you value collaboration, and they're saying they value performance? How are you working together? How does that how does that work?
Daniel Franco:
Oh,
Michelle Holland:
well, we'll just we just kind of figure it out. Wow. Okay, well, wouldn't it be better if you just use the same set of values you flow? That's the flow, right? So they'd actually what they'd end up doing is creating seven completely distinct businesses and almost competitive silos within Yeah, that's right. And they were distinct silos because even their strategy and their values and their vision was different than the company overall. So what we look at so that there was an element of where I've said, you need to Yes, have a internal strategy, have a translation of the values that works for your department wasn't mean here. What is the vision of the organization mean for your department? What's the purpose, you know, the value proposition of your department have that. But it has to flow from the company one, otherwise, you're seven different companies. And you're never going to work together, it's always going to be competitive. It's worrying. So that that was a health check that we did there. And the recommendation was, you need to change this.
Daniel Franco:
So the health check then turns into a larger program or smaller.
Michelle Holland:
Yeah, it does sometimes mean, sometimes we're going to a business and that's all they want. And they want to take it from there. And that's up to them to do that.
Daniel Franco:
But more often, you just advise in the background?
Michelle Holland:
Yeah, yeah. More often than not, though, it becomes a program where they want to have ongoing support. Who owns that? Generally the CEO? Yeah, yeah. Whoever is the top of the the tree. So they are the sponsor of culture. Isn't everybody business though, right. So it's not just one person, it has to be owned by everyone saying that, I fully believe that if everybody's accountable, nobody is. So there is accountability points in it. So it's generally the CEO or the managing director, whoever it is, is the sponsor of the program, they're driving it, yeah, they're, you know, this is what we want, this is what we need, we're setting the vision, the executive team have a huge role to play, the next level of management have a huge role to play, the staff have a huge role to play. Generally, in that sort of scenario, if it is a, we want to shift from one place to another place, they'll bring either me in as the director of transformation, or we put in another director of transformation or a manager of transformation, or whatever it might be. So someone from a, you know, culture, leadership, organizational development, understanding background, and that sort of organizational excellence background, to manage the project, because it becomes a project in the first instance. If it's a longer term thing, quite often there is a internal director or executive member, that's the owner of the program of work. This is when it's a shift. If there's no shift, and it's actually this is our culture, every single human being in that business owns the culture.
Daniel Franco:
Does it always have to be though at an organizational level? Can you work with individual team?
Michelle Holland:
Yeah, totally, totally. We have the those kind of conversations constantly, it's, you know, the, the culture, we want to work on our culture, but there's this, you know, big beast of a culture sits outside. Now, the way we do that is we absolutely work with the team culture, being cognizant of the bigger culture overall. So it might be that we go, we do some values work with them. So what are the values of the business? And how do they operationalize within your team? How are you working together as a team? There's
Daniel Franco:
that connection piece back to the grid?
Michelle Holland:
It's connection? Yeah, absolutely. So what's the purpose for your team within the bigger, bigger vision and picture? How are you interacting together? And then how do you interact with the broader group? Because the reality is, is that external culture absolutely has an impact on the team culture.
Daniel Franco:
So culture is a beast. Sure, is what I'm hearing. Yeah, yeah. It's there's so many moving parts. It sounds to me, as if leadership play such a pivotal point, part in this this whole transformation process of moving your culture from one state to another new, new or improved
Michelle Holland:
salutely? Yeah,
Daniel Franco:
if leadership aren't boring, then generally you don't get called is that the way or if they were fed by like, we need to improve our culture, and then go go and do that. I'm just gonna sit in the back. What happens then?
Michelle Holland:
Yeah, I get frustrated. Working in that kind of work.
Daniel Franco:
I have to be really, it becomes an expectation of yours, that leadership are in this
Michelle Holland:
Oh, absolutely. have to be in it. Yeah, if they're not in it, then it's not going to change. That's not going to happen. So if it's we're working with a team, it can't be that the team leader brings us in and goes, can you go and fix my team? For me? Yeah, because they're part of the team. They're part of the ecosystem of the team. So same as if a CEO brings us in and says, go fix the culture of my business. They're part of the ecosystem. So they have to be involved in it, they have to lead it, you know, that's the reality. There are things that people can do within cultures that improve their day to day that they can take control of you know, there's there's a lot of you know, simple things that they can do. We've got a DIY culture for starters as well that in turn, people can download, which will give them lots of different ideas of things that they can do on a day to day basis. And there are simple things like, you know, to increase connection with each other, just being courteous. Yeah, you know, being able to say good morning to people or Good night, that sort of stuff.
Daniel Franco:
Just saying hello. So
Michelle Holland:
people undervalue that, honestly, I really undervalue it. And then they'll tell me, Well, I'm not here to make friends might know you're not here to do a job and be friendly and part of that's part of being friendly
Daniel Franco:
like, my attitude has always been if you are a leader in any way, shape, or form, it is your job.
Michelle Holland:
it is your job to bring your team together
Daniel Franco:
to bring your team to Yes, it's a part of it to include to say hello to create a culture within that team that is trustworthy, that is transparent. That is radical radically was radical candor. Yeah, quite often
Michelle Holland:
I look, the way I describe leaders role is your role is to create an environment where people can reach their full potential. Yeah, that's really what your job is, as a leader. So you're not going to create that environment where you're, you're shutting down the human pneus of people. People need to be connected, we're hardwired for connection. And when we feel disconnected, that's when we start feeling things like shame and anger and fear and all of those negative emotions that don't allow us to actually produce our best. So if it's as simple like, it's honestly as simple as saying good morning to your people and being friendly. Why wouldn't you do that? Like, why wouldn't you? I don't understand why you wouldn't
Daniel Franco:
do I've had this, you never too busy to say hello,
Michelle Holland:
absolutely. And even if you're in a grouchy old mood in the morning, you can still say good morning, you know, and actually, it might help you get out of the grouchy mood.
Daniel Franco:
I've always used the mentality that right out there right now there is a CEO or a higher leader in a higher position than I, who was busier than I saying, hello, do his staff or her staff. Absolutely. So there's no excuse for you or anyone to know? Yeah,
Michelle Holland:
I used to, you know, you look at Barack Obama, he would walk around and say hello to everybody in the morning. And I'm like, if he can walk around and say good morning to people. This is Barack Obama, President of the United States than anybody can. Yeah, absolutely. And I use the current orange one as he is he's clearly not saying hello to anybody, except himself in the mirror.
Daniel Franco:
He's putting people down. Oh, she's terrible.
Michelle Holland:
Let's go on to the orange man, because we will be here forever.
Daniel Franco:
We won't, we don't want to listen to negative talk. So the, I guess, what is similar low hanging fruit before we wrap up with some low hanging fruit on trying to improve the culture?
Michelle Holland:
I guess, let me just go through I guess the the overarching process, people can choose their own low hanging fruit in that setting the direction? Where do I want to be? So setting that vision? Where am I going, then having a look at current state, what's actually stopping me from getting to that place, because if that's where I want to go, and I'm not there yet, there's something stopping me finding the barriers to that, what's the current state, then from there, analyzing those gaps. The gaps are where you'll find the things you need to focus on and work on. So it might be as simple as the gaps are, is nobody's saying hello to each other in the morning, let's start saying hello to each other. The gap might be there's a process that's actually stopping us from delivering what we need to deliver. And it's not a useful process, let's get rid of it. Let's change it, whatever it might be. The next bit is then to go. Alright, now that we've done that we've taken we've put a plan in place, we've taken some action, let's evaluate to see if that's actually working. That's that's one area that people forget to do is we've put this action in place to try and change some of our cultural outcomes. But we're not actually going back and looking at if they've actually changed the outcomes that we want. Because more often than not, because culture is such a beast, and it's so complex, you might put an action in place that you think's going to have the impact that you want it to have, and it doesn't have a different kind of impact impacts on something else, or it highlights another barrier that you didn't see, and you have to deal with that barrier as well. So that feedback loop is really important than evaluation loops really important. And then you go back to the beginning, has that actually reached the target that we wanted? No, it hasn't. What's the current state of play? What are the barriers in place? How do we get rid of those barriers? Let's see if it's, you know, evaluate again. So is that real loop loop loop and it takes time? It's gonna take a lot of time.
Daniel Franco:
That was gonna be my next question. Can coach be changed in six to 12 months,
Michelle Holland:
and your climate can be changed in six to 12 months processes can definitely be changed in six to 12 months, even interaction between people can get changed in six to 12 months, you can definitely shift a culture in six to 12 months, whether it's a sustainable change is a whole other, you know, story.
Daniel Franco:
So you can shift. But it's not necessarily, it doesn't necessarily mean that you can stay there.
Michelle Holland:
No, not necessarily.
Daniel Franco:
It's like your weight, right? You try to lose some weight, three weeks later, you've put it all back.
Michelle Holland:
That's right. Because unless you've built it into the structural elements of your business and the ongoing elements, then you might revert back to where you were. So it's a real, it's an ongoing game. Culture is a daily thing. It's not a one size fits all project. It's not just a program of work, if somebody is going to come in to you and sell you, you know, here you go, here's a training program that you'll go on, and you know, change your culture and one day kind of deal a couple of weeks, it's not gonna happen, you know, it might start you thinking in that way, you know, design your perfect culture workshop, fantastic. Create a positive workshop culture, fantastic for starting you to think about culture, great, it's not gonna fix your culture, though, you actually have to do the work. So it says, it's not necessarily hard work. It is complex work sometimes. And it does take thinking, and it takes internal change as well. You have to be willing to let things go. So you know, there's there's barriers and resistance factors in play that you need to work through to enable that change to actually occur.
Daniel Franco:
I guess that's why you get called upon a fair bit, because you can help. scalpel that path. Can't you really is, it is a complex? Yeah Brain really isn't an you'r there helping them pick the poi ts in? Yeah, yeah, helping hem in their dir
Michelle Holland:
It's the quote the thing. It's the Albert Einstein quote that says, You can't solve a problem by the thinking that created the problem. That's where bringing somebody in who's external to your business, having that clean, fresh eyes, and different kinds of thinking will enable you to make shifts and changes because I have my roles, the hard truths that come Well, yeah, my role is essentially to challenge and to ask the questions that haven't really been asked, you know, and it's to challenge the norms. The
Daniel Franco:
status quo is the things that
Michelle Holland:
so it's uncomfortable. Yeah. And I'm not like sometimes.
Daniel Franco:
But I think it's so simple. I mean, how many times has something just been staring you at the face in the face? And you've all looked at it and not seen it? Someone external comes along and goes, what's what's Yeah,
Michelle Holland:
you know, if you move that box from there to there and election make a difference go out loud. Yeah.
Daniel Franco:
But, yeah, the productivity that comes out of it is huge.
Michelle Holland:
Yeah. Well, that's right. And I mean, you obviously bring in a consultant you pay for their expertise to move the box. Yeah,
Unknown:
it's the
Daniel Franco:
culture goes with anything. We're the people that deliver babies, what are they called? midwives, not midwives, the actual obstetrician, obstetrician, you pay ridiculous amounts. And he sits there, and he watches the midwife deliver the baby. And he said, I remember that when my wife was having our first and he and he had a trainee in the room. And he was coaching the trainee. And I said, I said to him, because I knew him quite well. And I'm like, I said to him, Doctor, you were paying, you owe this money to me. He goes, you're paying me if anything goes wrong, yes, the insurance policy. You are not paying me to do the work. So it's just it is an interesting and slightly spective.
Michelle Holland:
Yeah, yeah, it's a plumber story, right? Oh, yes. You know, paying me to, you know, fix the pipe. Yeah. paying me to know where and when and how to fix the pipe
Daniel Franco:
But of Yeah, it's a good video. Here's a good video on our website, check it out. So where can we find any sort of help around the cultural piece?
Michelle Holland:
Well, a bit of a plug for my book. So everything that I've talked about is in culture Inc. That's the book there it's got it's it's really is a how to step by step guide to transforming your culture, give it up all your secrets. There's a lot of secrets in there. I mean, it doesn't give up everything, because obviously I've had 20 years of playing in this game. It is it is and sometimes it's it's it's the in the moment. So that's where the consulting is and the advisory part of it's really helpful because I will ask a question in the moment that I wouldn't have necessarily written in the book because it's something that's right there for that business at that time. And it's like, that's the question that needs to be asked right now.
Daniel Franco:
So culture on Amazon on the city Synergy IQ website,
Michelle Holland:
Synergy IQ website, and booktopia, which is Australian book distributor. So you know, buy through booktopia That's a good one. But Amazon, you can buy through there. It's on Kindle. And yeah, audios. On my website, if you go to Michelle Holland calm on Michelle t Holland sorry.com. There is a ability to buy the book and get the audio for free
Daniel Franco:
Brilliant.
Michelle Holland:
as well.
Daniel Franco:
Excellent. And if people want some information about changing their culture,
Michelle Holland:
just go to Synergy iq.com.au. And there's lots of resources on there. There's some free downloads and connect with me on LinkedIn. I'm always posting cool things and give us a call and we can have a chat.
Daniel Franco:
Brilliant. Thank you very much for your time. You're welcome. We'll chat again soon, no doubt.
Michelle Holland:
We sure will.
Synergy IQ:
Thank you once again for joining us here at creating synergy. It's been great spending this time with you. Please jump on to the Synergy IQ Facebook page where the discussion continues after the show. join our mailing list so you'll know what's happening next at Synergy iq.com.au. And of course, don't forget to subscribe to this podcast. And if you really enjoyed it, please share it with your friends.
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