00:00:04:13 - 00:00:32:09
Daniel Franco
Welcome back to the Creating Synergy Podcast. Today, I'm thrilled to introduce to you our guests, Dr. Robin Lawrence, the CEO of Department of Health and Well-Being, more commonly known as SA Health here in South Australia. Robin has had an amazing career in the health sector that spans over 20 years and moved her way up into executive roles where she steered numerous high profile projects, including capital developments, governance reforms and cultural shifts and leading the hotel quarantine system.

00:00:32:09 - 00:00:56:07
Daniel Franco
Response to COVID 19. In Western Australia. Just under a year ago, Robin decided to pick up her bags and move from Perth to Adelaide to take on the helm at SA Health. During this chat we learned about her journey and we delve into the day to day realities and complexities that the health system is facing, especially during these recent and challenging times.

00:00:57:01 - 00:01:23:19
Daniel Franco
We touch upon Robin's instrumental role in WA health response to COVID 19, where she shares with us the way they dealt with limited information coming through from the rest of the world. She explains with us the pressure on the health system and the strategic steps that were taken to keep the community safe. We also touch on the big issue on the lips of all South Australians in ambulance ramping and we discuss the ongoing efforts in which we can combat it.

00:01:24:12 - 00:01:50:10
Daniel Franco
We talked about the cultural shifts within health care, focusing on challenges and push towards a more inclusive environment whilst trying to navigate the current workforce challenges that face the industry. Throughout the chat we also gain an understanding of Robin's leadership approach and the resilience required to lead in this industry. And we cover also what the role that technology will and may play in the future of health care.

00:01:50:13 - 00:02:12:09
Daniel Franco
I absolutely love this chat. It helps us understand the leadership thought process in managing what is probably one of the most important industries in the world health care. So without further ado, here is my chat with Dr. Robert Lawrence. So welcome back to the Creating Synergy Podcast. Today we have the CEO of the Department of Health and Wellbeing, Dr. Robyn Lawrence, on the show.

00:02:12:09 - 00:02:12:21
Daniel Franco
Welcome.

00:02:13:09 - 00:02:13:23
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Hi, Daniel.

00:02:14:10 - 00:02:27:03
Daniel Franco
Thank you. Thank you for being here. Very excited to have you on. You've been in the role for 11 months now after moving over from Western Australia. And first question, how is South Australia treating you?

00:02:27:21 - 00:02:37:02
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Really love South Australia. Actually, we've thoroughly enjoyed the events that are here. Yeah, Major, we've got out to all of them and it's really been terrific. I'd have to say.

00:02:37:11 - 00:02:39:07
Daniel Franco
You bring the whole family over.

00:02:39:07 - 00:02:54:15
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Or No, my husband FIFO is in and out. He works in a hospital in WA and he comes and works from here. One week in three or so, two out of three weekends we're out on enjoying the local atmosphere and the events and restaurants and bars of Adelaide.

00:02:55:13 - 00:02:57:09
Daniel Franco
And the rest of the time it's just work, work, work.

00:02:57:15 - 00:02:58:14
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Pretty much.

00:02:59:19 - 00:03:13:09
Daniel Franco
So look in, I want to go back to early life and to understand who Robyn Lawrence's and what do we need to know about your earliest context and, and you end up sitting here today.

00:03:13:23 - 00:03:47:21
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Well, so I am a graduate of the University of Western Australia Medical School and started my career as an intern at one of the big tertiary hospitals in Perth, Sir Charles Gardner. That's where I met my husband. So we're very much a health family. I grew up in that environment. As a young doctor. I guess I was quite taken by why we did the things we did and why rosters were the way they were and why one day I could be on a roster and when I had enough experience I thought I actually couldn't be on that roster anymore and probably voiced that a bit too much until I got thrown on a committee.

00:03:48:10 - 00:04:10:02
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
You go over there and you're on that committee and that was my first exposure to the back end of a hospital and what it was like over time it became clear that I had a real keen interest in that even it was considered going to the dockside and that I could actually impact a much wider area of health care by being an admin than being that clinician 1 to 1.

00:04:10:13 - 00:04:26:01
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
So I made the leap and went across and started a fellowship in medical administration through one of the colleges, just the same as becoming a fellow of the College of Surgeons and become a fellow of the College of Medical Administrators. Right. And that was how I got into admin. And I've been there ever since.

00:04:26:12 - 00:04:36:06
Daniel Franco
So can we, can we go back to pre uni and, you know, early days you're born your family. What does that look like? Where where are you and what is your early life look like?

00:04:36:07 - 00:04:57:18
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
A very normal West Australian family. Yeah, I was the first one in my family to go to university. I'm one of three girls and both mum and dad met in the bank. Yeah, and young, young couple married and had us all very young. I wanted to be a dancer. My dad worked in the entertainment industry for many, many years and I thought I could grow up to be a dancer.

00:04:58:00 - 00:04:59:07
Daniel Franco
So you were doing dancing?

00:04:59:07 - 00:05:05:03
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
You did dancing from the time I was three. Very good. My family thought that was a very bad career choice.

00:05:05:03 - 00:05:07:06
Daniel Franco
So we still get out there now and have a little bit.

00:05:07:06 - 00:05:25:04
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Of every time musical theater comes along and I go to the shows, it's like, gosh, I mean, they're really in the wrong area. That's really the career I wanted. So yes, I would still have this pipe dream that maybe that's one day. But I think that horse has bolted and made the transition to university. And here I am all these years later.

00:05:25:05 - 00:05:25:15
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
So what I.

00:05:25:18 - 00:05:41:23
Daniel Franco
Had headed health, get into a family and into assignments and banking. And then you decided health industries where I wondered what was the trigger there? It seems it seems a long throw away from dancing, if that makes sense.

00:05:42:06 - 00:06:12:03
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Yeah, I guess when you go through school and you meet other people in that environment and your teachers and you're influenced to go to uni. Yeah. If you're, you know, I guess if you're a bright kid, people will always encourage you to take that pathway and then it's a decision. I don't remember wanting to do something else, but Mum and Dad both say they remember me saying I wanted to be a lawyer, but then I had a period of minor illness as a child and I think I got influenced by the clinicians who looked after me in those early teenage years.

00:06:12:12 - 00:06:35:22
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
And maybe that's what kind of brought me to it. But as far as I can remember, once I was in that older age group, I wanted to be a doctor. Quite a few of my uni school colleagues, friends went went on to do medicine, was either medicine or law for girls in those days, I guess. And I was in that transition where the medical school was moving from about 30% girls when I started towards 50 and now actually more.

00:06:35:22 - 00:06:41:11
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Most medical schools have more than 50% women in their cohorts, but medical school was a great time.

00:06:42:01 - 00:06:45:23
Daniel Franco
What was the what was the illness that you said when you were younger?

00:06:46:05 - 00:06:59:02
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Oh, was ill defined actually at that point in time. But I think it's fair to say that as a youngster I suffered with anxiety. Okay. And that probably, you know, played into it. But in the end, it was all fun.

00:06:59:10 - 00:07:06:05
Daniel Franco
Yeah. So I got the got the good support from the doctors and nurses around you and decided that's what we wanted to be.

00:07:06:05 - 00:07:06:12
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Yeah.

00:07:07:02 - 00:07:24:18
Daniel Franco
What is there a is there a purpose there, Is there something that you're connected to? I mean you're, you sounded like you were a bright kid, but that being the only reason health and not something else was there. I want to I want to change the world. I want to save lives. What was the what was the purpose there?

00:07:24:20 - 00:07:47:13
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
It'd be nice to say I thought I wanted to change the world, but I didn't think I had that much aspiration. To be honest. I think I just wanted to be a good person doing something that I thought I would enjoy, but also something that was valuable to the community. Um, I don't think I ever, ever had really, really grand aspirations to, to do anything more than what I was going to go to do on the day to day basis.

00:07:47:13 - 00:07:56:00
Daniel Franco
Okay. And then as the years went by, you got more and more experienced and your career profile grew. What happened from there?

00:07:57:02 - 00:08:25:14
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
And look, I think I was really lucky. I as I said, I've never really had grand career aspirations to do a job like this or pretty much any of my jobs. I was really well supported by people around me who often gave me opportunities that you might say at any other time I wasn't ready for, but I was able to be successful because those people I supported me and were there no matter when I needed them.

00:08:26:00 - 00:08:48:16
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
But also I think because I didn't necessarily brim with the confidence that people might think I did, I was also willing to to go and ask, Yeah, and that ability to go and ask and use those people around you, I think puts you in a really safe place. It means you are a safe pair of hands because you understand your own limitations and you're not scared to use those who have more knowledge or knowledge in a different area to what you have.

00:08:48:19 - 00:08:49:14
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Yeah.

00:08:49:14 - 00:09:02:22
Daniel Franco
Do you think do you think that's a skill set? Do you think the skill set of curiosity is one in which is in an eye and born with you? Or is it something that's learned?

00:09:03:21 - 00:09:25:05
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
I think it is innate. I think some people are better at it than others. I think you can learn to a certain extent. You've got to be really open to sharing because actually if you want to hold everything close to you and not ever share that you, you follow that mantra, that knowledge is power. Nobody else will share with you either, and you can't be trusted.

00:09:25:05 - 00:09:48:08
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
So I think that and night willingness and openness, you're born with it. Yeah. Now maybe it's influence from the time you're really little in the way you say things happen, but it's pretty hard to teach people Some of those things, and there's no doubt you can get it to a certain extent. But the willingness to be trustworthy and to really expose yourself because that's what you're doing and that's.

00:09:48:09 - 00:09:50:11
Daniel Franco
A sense of vulnerability there is in there. Yeah.

00:09:50:20 - 00:09:56:09
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
And I guess in the end you've got to be trusting that that's the person you are.

00:09:56:11 - 00:10:24:06
Daniel Franco
MM Yeah. Because by asking questions and I think it's surprising knowing, knowing the medical industry, someone being curious isn't, is almost a unicorn in some aspects. And what I mean by that, the people in the medical world are curious, they're obviously always learning, but it's about the asking questions of I don't know is one that you see less of in the medical field and what am I correct?

00:10:24:06 - 00:10:48:19
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Yeah, that's a really interesting thing because I think as clinicians, we aren't good when we don't know the answer. And I have had illness in later life where we've kind of like not knowing the answer and it's really difficult. It's really difficult as a clinician patient to accept that there may be answers we don't have. And I'm sure it's terrible if you're the doctor trying to fix somebody and you just don't know.

00:10:48:21 - 00:11:12:01
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Yeah. And so I think that's true to a certain extent. On the other hand, thank goodness there's a lot of great researchers out there who don't put up with that and are very curious and continue to go looking because that's how we advance health care. Yeah, but it's really tough when you step then into that management side and you don't always know the answers and you are dependent on your teams to bring those answers to you.

00:11:12:01 - 00:11:19:01
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
And sometimes, just like in the clinical field, we won't ever have the perfect answer. And all you gotta do is just keep trying.

00:11:20:16 - 00:11:45:00
Daniel Franco
Yeah, I just want to clarify. I want to paint the brush that people who work in the medical world and clinicians aren't aren't curious people or don't have the ability to become be vulnerable. I'm not saying that, but it's I'm just I am I am stereotype living a little bit. What what does drive you in those early years what drove you to to want to be better and improve.

00:11:45:00 - 00:11:58:23
Daniel Franco
I mean you said before that you weren't looking at the career, you weren't looking at in the ways in which you could impact more day to day. What made you get up every single morning and and want to come in and make an impact?

00:11:59:03 - 00:12:24:22
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
I think like many of my colleagues, we all have a degree of perfectionism in us and it was always about doing the very best I could. It didn't matter what I was doing, what job, what function, what role I was, what level I was. All I wanted to do was do the best I could. And that includes, I think it's probably always included stepping beyond the bounds of what am I doing here and now today too.

00:12:24:22 - 00:12:50:24
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
What does that look like in the bigger picture? And over time, that ability is probably matured as I've got older and the even the understanding of myself as I've got older and what drives me has matured a lot. So now I can readily say to you, I'm at my best when I'm trying to solve the unsolvable. In many ways, I'm someone who's done a lot of change and a lot of difficult pieces of work, and when we move into a steady state, that's not where I function at my best.

00:12:51:03 - 00:13:00:15
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
But if you'd asked me that 20 years ago, I would have said that's not true at all. Yeah. So it's quite interesting that evolution and that you can look back and say, actually that's what I've got good at now. Yeah.

00:13:01:00 - 00:13:17:10
Daniel Franco
Yeah. Is it like the love of the chase is a love of it. Because you said before, it's like we don't like knowing, not knowing. And I think when you're in the throes of it, trying to figure it out, it seems like that's what gets you up in the morning and. And makes you excited about work. Yeah.

00:13:17:10 - 00:13:41:07
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
And I think when you actually achieve something that buzz you get when you are successful and you achieve something drives you on, you know, you know, it's no different to the sportspeople on the field, I'm guessing. Yeah. You know, it's not great when you're losing every game. No, but that's that self-satisfaction you get. And for us now in healthcare, the benefit that you can say bringing to the community gives you that buzz and it keeps you going.

00:13:42:06 - 00:13:59:00
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
And you know, I can reflect back on some of the very biggest things we've done in opening the Perth Children's Hospital. And I was one of those that day when we got to hear the choir rehearsing for the opening and it just came home to you. What a hard journey that had been for me and the rest of the team in the state.

00:13:59:00 - 00:14:08:12
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
To get to that point is highly emotional and, you know, a once in a lifetime. Luckily I've had a couple of times now and it's fantastic.

00:14:09:06 - 00:14:12:12
Daniel Franco
Well, what was your role in that in that opening of the hospital?

00:14:12:18 - 00:14:31:00
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Well, I came to it light like many of the things. So the hospital was up and built. By the time I stepped back into the chief executive role for the the Children's Health Service, you know why? And there was a range of issues going on, as there often is in health care. Yeah, some local issues at the existing hospital.

00:14:31:00 - 00:14:48:24
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
But also we had a problem getting the hospital open and was quite widely publicized about the lead in the water. Yeah. And so in my leadership I had oversight of trying to close out that project and get the hospital open, working with technical colleagues, because obviously I did not know anything about lead in the water and plumbing fixtures and how to fix them.

00:14:49:08 - 00:15:06:00
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
So I was quite dependent on others, but it was a very challenging journey because the hospital was ready to go and at one stage we thought we were going to have to do some dramatic undoing of that facility to fix it. Yeah, and that was not going to make anybody happy.

00:15:07:13 - 00:15:34:10
Daniel Franco
How do you, as a leader in that time manage many situations where things like that are out of your control and it just seems like you think from your perspective, you and the team have been advised. I've been asked from a hospital and clerical point of view what is required and you go, Right, that's all we need. But then all of a sudden you've got this really strange scenario where there's led in the water and you can do absolutely nothing about it.

00:15:35:07 - 00:16:06:05
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
And so, Sam, are you manage anything actually? So there was there was a team and that included the technical people who were working on it from other agencies within government to try and get to the solution. And my job really was to, I guess, conduct that orchestra to a certain extent to make sure that we're all on the same timeline, we're all on the same page, that every I was dotted and every T was crossed, that we explored everything and that we were kept by my boss as well as government informed of what was going on.

00:16:06:16 - 00:16:33:00
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
And now there's some things you can never change, but sometimes you've actually got to get your hands dirty too. So the amount of stuff that I learned about plumbing fixtures and plumbing circuits and what does and doesn't exist in your standard shop. Yeah, you just had to. You can't sit back and say someone else will fix it because actually you are accountable at the end of the day and you've got to be able to understand it both for reasons where they may be valid delays and valid things you can't do.

00:16:33:00 - 00:16:44:04
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
But also this questioning all the time, Well, could we do it differently? Is it somewhere else we can go? What else can we do to keep driving that? And if you don't understand the detail, you can't do that. Yeah.

00:16:44:21 - 00:16:47:05
Daniel Franco
What was the what was the reasoning in.

00:16:47:10 - 00:17:09:05
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Oh, very complex. So the plumbing fixtures, a brass, which is consistent with Australian standards at the time. The theory and I'll reiterate it is a theory that the water was left to stagnate. You can chlorinated water in in facilities, so when you're building facilities you meant to keep water running, keep the water flushed out, otherwise you get bugs and all sorts of.

00:17:09:13 - 00:17:29:19
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Yeah, something went wrong with that process and it's under what we believe happened is that that then caused the brass to break down the LED comes out of the brass and the water, but the fittings themselves have been damaged, so they'll continue to leach the lid. So we had to change those fittings out and put plastic fittings in, which were custom made in the end by a little local company in WA.

00:17:30:04 - 00:18:01:20
Daniel Franco
He goes, So what about you, Chris? It's it's quite a diverse in the roles that you've had obviously your whole life has been in, um, in the health care sector. What is one memory that you look back on and it makes you smile? I mean the opening of the of the hospital is one what is one that is kind of foundational to who you are and the way you practice today?

00:18:01:20 - 00:18:24:21
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Oh, that's really challenging. I don't think I could ever say there's one thing that's made that difference to me. I've done so many things over these some some of those things that haven't gone so well are the things that are really foundational to how you operate into the future. And there's a few of those where you remember exactly where you were standing when something didn't go well.

00:18:24:21 - 00:18:25:06
Daniel Franco
The so I.

00:18:25:15 - 00:18:54:20
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Like to have planned it and new hospitals are great. So financial turnarounds have been fantastic too. If you can turn an organization around from one that I, I guess is always under the pump because actually nobody likes you very much when your hospitals losing money. Yeah, well not on budget if you can take that and turn it around, that makes such a big difference to your team who you just take away that pressure.

00:18:54:20 - 00:19:27:19
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
It allows them to put their focus very much in different places and innovation. I think the opportunity to introduce an innovation program in one of my hospitals was fantastic. It was just something that was different in the way we we set about it. And it came after the opportunity to go to Israel on our West Australian trip and see how they had innovation and to try and bring that in in the tiniest little microcosm you could with the tiniest little amount of money you could and with some partners was great.

00:19:27:19 - 00:19:41:07
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
And you know, seeing how that is growing and developing over time is good. So there's a whole lot of things from tiny little things you can do in little departments to make a difference, to support them, to do something differently. Right up to opening a hospital in Israel.

00:19:41:07 - 00:19:45:03
Daniel Franco
The world leaders in this space, aren't they from a innovation point of view?

00:19:45:03 - 00:19:45:15
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Yeah.

00:19:46:10 - 00:19:49:15
Daniel Franco
What what were some of those ideas that you did bring back.

00:19:49:24 - 00:20:00:06
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
And that trip was amazing. And we made the most phenomenally amazing people that I was blown away by it. But I think for us.

00:20:00:15 - 00:20:01:21
Daniel Franco
In a more regard.

00:20:01:21 - 00:20:09:12
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Oh, they were, they were young, they were dynamic, They had made millions of dollars of this of their ideas.

00:20:09:12 - 00:20:10:13
Daniel Franco
Was it tech or was it.

00:20:10:17 - 00:20:33:15
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Was mostly tech, but health. Health by stage, Yeah, that was what we were focused on. But you could see the different drivers, you know, where when you're under threat all the time as they are. And interestingly, a lot of them were even refugees to Israel out of countries when the Jewish people were getting out of some of the Eastern European countries in particular.

00:20:34:12 - 00:21:07:16
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
So they didn't come from, you know, really well, they didn't come from middle class backgrounds necessarily, that all been through the military because it's mandatory. So they had a very different trajectory and pathway. But what we saw was that they really enabled and believed in innovation. They gave a degree of freedom to do that and in particular very different models to what we have in our government services here where you could go in, you could try something, they'd give you some money, and there was processes around accessing those funds, of course.

00:21:09:01 - 00:21:30:19
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
But if it didn't work, you could get out really quickly. Whereas our perception of our models was, you know, we do business case, you get your money and to get out with more work than to just let it get to the end. And so how did you instill that in your local environment that you could provide very small amounts of support because obviously we don't have a lot of money.

00:21:30:19 - 00:21:50:02
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
It's frontline health care services, but whether it be in time or kind or analytics to be able to give your frontline workers who wanted to try something different in their own units the opportunity to be able to do that, but also to say, actually this hasn't worked, I'm out. And for them not to write 100 page report to get out.

00:21:50:11 - 00:22:12:12
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
And so that that was a really key thing about how you enable that to happen in introducing the program. One of the things we really learned was that the expectations that we all have when we come up with these ideas, there's a lot to learn in that process about what's realistic, because a lot of the things that were it based were clearly going to take a lot more effort.

00:22:12:12 - 00:22:28:23
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
And it wasn't we didn't have those expertise in the hospital system necessarily to provide that guidance to people, to say, actually these these projects never going to get out because what you're expecting is just too great. Yeah. Can you narrow the scope down or can you narrow what you want to do down to a certain extent to start with?

00:22:29:06 - 00:22:33:21
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
So having those external expertise to support and guide, that was a really critical piece of that work.

00:22:35:07 - 00:23:01:05
Daniel Franco
It's a really important part. I'm a shiny bulb type person and I like if there's something exciting out there, I look at it again and can we implement it? And, and to some degree course some disruption in the team. And how, how do you how do you manage I think when when you see something that's exciting you go that that's a game changer that could completely change the way we work.

00:23:01:05 - 00:23:07:01
Daniel Franco
But if I was to bring that back into my organization now, it would cause chaos. Yeah. How do you manage that?

00:23:07:24 - 00:23:31:20
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Well, most things we try to implement in health do seem to cause chaos because there's 35, 40,000 people and you need change. And I think the over the years we've learned with tech that actually the tech in and of itself is a facilitator. It's not the solution. Right? And very often we see it as the solution and we fail to do all the other change pieces, sometimes the tail wagging the dog.

00:23:32:04 - 00:23:51:23
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
And it doesn't work in our system as an example. And I think so far we're seeing the risk in health care in particular, maybe more broadly about health, because what I know is that we have great tech, we bring it in and actually it doesn't deliver because we haven't done the paces around it or our systems aren't set up to leverage off it in the way they were where we saw it.

00:23:52:00 - 00:24:10:12
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Yeah, So it's making sure that your team's ready and wants to tech that be that. Actually all of the interfaces are also ready and willing otherwise you can spend an awful lot of money cause an awful lot of work for your teams and actually not get an outcome.

00:24:10:12 - 00:24:29:06
Daniel Franco
Yeah correct there's there's some numbers firm and we working this this is our space with synergy IQ. We work in the complex challenge space and there's numbers floating around that saying for a successful tech project, two thirds of the of the cash should go towards the people, change side of things and one third to the to the actual software solution.

00:24:29:20 - 00:24:50:19
Daniel Franco
And you're right, it is 100% about getting the conditions right for change. Has the business got the maturity to be able to accept this changes? One of the is the probably number one question that we've got to ask ourselves. And if it doesn't, then what do we need to do to be able to get that? So it can roll out and be successful and be implemented and improve productivity and everything else that comes with it.

00:24:51:18 - 00:25:13:06
Daniel Franco
You mentioned earlier, though, and just on that point of two thirds on the people, people sort of change from a dollar point of view. You mentioned that the money goes to the frontline all the time. Is it? And I'm just look, I'm I'm sitting back as an outsider and, you know, outside of looking in and not really understanding all their inner workings of the way the government work and everything like that.

00:25:13:17 - 00:25:34:16
Daniel Franco
But if all the money is going to the front line, but yet no money is going to the back end, where you know, where the people side is in those systems and the processes and everything else in that in that aspect. Isn't it kind of a chicken and egg situation where if you spend the money in the back end, you have to reduce the amount of money we throw in on the front end?

00:25:36:19 - 00:26:08:09
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Yeah, health care funding is quite complex. Yeah, if we just focused on the hospital system, we're paid under activity based funding. So essentially we're paid in the main in our big hospitals for the amount of work we do at a price. Yeah. Now that covers everything except a capital expenditure. Yeah. Okay. So those sorts of things are built in and it's an average across the country, builds all sorts of things in and tech is really changing.

00:26:08:09 - 00:26:31:20
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
That is one of the things that we're in discussions with the Commonwealth and the other states about at the moment, about how much is tech included in it, how are people costing it, funding, etc.. One of the things we've been less good at consistently, I think, or not as consistently good as we could be, might be a better way to say it is when you are introducing tech and government does fund it.

00:26:31:20 - 00:26:53:24
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Don't get me wrong, I've just funded our electronic medical record to roll right out across the state and we'll be the first state that has a unified electronic medical record right across our system, which will be brilliant. And they've funded that. What we haven't been great at is making sure that we've got full lifecycle cost and all of those change costs upfront and making them clear.

00:26:53:24 - 00:26:54:05
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Yeah.

00:26:54:24 - 00:26:55:23
Daniel Franco
Included in that.

00:26:56:01 - 00:27:15:18
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Yeah. We tend to ask for the bits that sit in the contract. Yeah. And we're less good at remembering that there's actually all these other things we need to do. And so it's a partnership in going forward with those things. And you know, it's not just us in health care who, who needs those things and have very costly and unbelievably costly to implement.

00:27:16:07 - 00:27:46:09
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
So we've got to be realistic that government has a bucket of money and we need to share in that bucket. So we've been very lucky in South Australia. Our AMA will be available right across our system. The next challenge for health is how we leverage that to improve patient outcomes. Yeah, and use it not just as a documentation tool, but to really drive safety and quality and where we can, you know, actually reduce the amount of time clinicians spending on tasks they don't need to do and to be able to direct their time towards as important tasks.

00:27:47:08 - 00:27:55:03
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
And safety and quality prompts are one of those big things we say around the world that that's one of the biggest benefits you get from an AMA.

00:27:55:06 - 00:28:17:13
Daniel Franco
Do you think that it's going to cause what I know to be true is that the health care industry, whether it's in hospitals or in aged care, workforce shortages are paramount. Like it, you're suffering, right? Impacts are against the wall. Does the automation and, you know, trips to the these roads of the world, there's automation in the tech.

00:28:18:12 - 00:28:27:21
Daniel Franco
Has that got the ability to reduce the pressure on the front lawn and reduce the the amount of people that we need in the workforce?

00:28:28:11 - 00:28:54:21
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
I think in theory, absolute only in practice. I don't think we're seeing that yet. And there's a whole lot of confounders in that space. Obviously, there's there's some things in health care that we're still learning about the safety of the automation and how reliable it is. And it will always take a long time as it should do. The clinicians to accept that into their work profile on how that works.

00:28:54:21 - 00:29:25:13
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
And I think we did see some models in Israel where that was being leveraged off the AI, particularly in imaging where they weren't using it in their system and it was directing clinician time to where it was most needed. Yeah, to the highest priority patients, etc.. So that was useful. Our models that sit around our workforce models, the way we're trained at university and our industrial models will always confound how much benefit you can get from it.

00:29:25:22 - 00:29:56:00
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
And I think that's the journey we're now going to have to go on when you're starting to see some figures. I was just reading some NHS figures where they're predicting, you know, workforce shortages in the hundreds of thousands. We can't close that gap unless we do things differently. Correct. And so they have published their strategy and it goes from growing more to changing the way we train people to using different sorts of allied health professionals, models that we haven't got in Australia yet to using tech.

00:29:56:02 - 00:30:03:20
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Yeah, and it's going to need all of those things. But unless we as a whole group of health care professionals get engaged, it will be very difficult.

00:30:04:13 - 00:30:13:14
Daniel Franco
This is this is a whole reform across the whole sectors and this isn't one thing that one hospital or one network could do by itself.

00:30:13:17 - 00:30:32:03
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
No, it goes all the way from the Commonwealth through how are you going to register people? What training are you going to give them, what the universities are going to do? Then? How are you going to incentivize people to choose career paths? Yeah, and what they do. So we know every every country with a universal health care system seems to have a shortage of primary care practitioners.

00:30:32:03 - 00:30:51:06
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
So why is that? And I think we have to start to ask some hard questions about why we have shortages in some of the areas we have and why we don't in other areas. And then we need to realign the system. If that's where our priority is, how will we as Australia prioritize to get health care professionals to be in the places we want them to be?

00:30:51:16 - 00:31:06:14
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
And and the NHS has just outlined how they think they can do it. Be interesting to see if it works. Yeah. And because you know, at the heart and center is people like us and we're still going to go where we want to go and influenced by what's around us.

00:31:07:00 - 00:31:14:05
Daniel Franco
You mentioned earlier that the the, the clinicians and what is the best term? Is it clinicians, the best term to use?

00:31:14:24 - 00:31:18:19
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
I use clinicians in a very generic sense so that all of our health care.

00:31:18:19 - 00:31:42:07
Daniel Franco
Professionals all use that. So with the clinicians, you said that when new tech is rolled out or or any changes are put in place, you said that they are slow to work with it to uptake it and then you said as they should be. What do you mean by that or particularly?

00:31:42:07 - 00:32:21:24
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
I So I think there's some things that with tech where clinicians are very rapid adopters and there's other bits where we're quite conservative. Yeah, and I think if you're using air, you want to be completely reassured that you can provide the same level of care to the patient by incorporating that into your practice, you can without it. And there's lots of medicolegal risks around those things and there's lots of issues about getting some of that tech approved by the authorizing environment, such as the Therapeutic Goods Administration and how that works.

00:32:22:11 - 00:32:52:22
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
So up until very recently, I can be used, but you haven't been out of use learning AI So it can't be. And you know, they approve one group of products and then if you want to upgrade it, it's got to come back. Yeah. Now, you know, all those things will catch up over time and I think depending how you bring them into your practice and how you know, generically into practice, we will see them being used more and more and you can already see bits and pieces of it popping up all over the place.

00:32:52:22 - 00:33:16:04
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
But I think we also have to recognize that some of these things are often initially perceived as a threat to a professional, yet correct. It would be, yeah. So if a machine can write x rays as well as a radiologist, yeah. How does that sit in our new world environment? But I think we're pretty sure that we're never going to turn that completely over to our machine.

00:33:16:11 - 00:33:29:12
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
So there's always going to be a role. But interestingly, my young son said to me once when we were talking about what he was going to do, Isobel, doctors won't do what they're doing anymore, Mum. They will just be the interpreters. Yeah, between the machine and the patient. Yeah.

00:33:29:24 - 00:33:32:18
Daniel Franco
And yeah, being able to put it in layman's terms. Yeah. Yeah.

00:33:32:22 - 00:33:35:18
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
So you still needed but it's a different function and role.

00:33:35:18 - 00:34:01:20
Daniel Franco
Agreed. And so my thought process is that, is that if people are worried about their jobs. But yeah, there's this technology that could potentially save more lives then like get over yourself. Is that, is that off? Like, do you know what I mean? Like if you draw, if you join the health care industry, I think deep down the core purpose is because you actually want to save other humans or you want to better the health and longevity of the human race.

00:34:01:20 - 00:34:08:06
Daniel Franco
I like that. That's why we're there. So if you're then worried about your job, I don't know. It just kind of contradicts itself.

00:34:08:13 - 00:34:34:10
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
And yes, I can understand that. But on the other hand, a lot of this tech comes without that robust evidence at that early point. And so I think like everything you want to say, the evidence before it, you know, you're adopted into regular practice is no different to a new drug coming online. So I think it's reasonable and fair that we are skeptical about how we bring them in and how we can best use them and make sure we do it in a safe way.

00:34:34:16 - 00:34:45:09
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
And over time, everybody will move to what's best for for patients. Yeah, but sometimes that might appear slower than what the community maybe even I would like to expect.

00:34:45:09 - 00:34:51:10
Daniel Franco
Yeah. Do you get excited about the potential of AI in the health industry?

00:34:51:10 - 00:35:07:22
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Some bits of it, yeah. There's some bits. I'd love to help me. Yeah. And so I think I think it has got potential and I think it really is in that that safety stream. And as I said when we saw it being used in overseas where you could use it to filter which x ray you should read next.

00:35:07:22 - 00:35:31:15
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Yeah. As opposed to it's the be all and end end all of the actual reporting process. And it was really useful because it made sure that the patient who most importantly needed their X-ray, it was also fantastic for doing things like where we do serial imaging for cancers, cancers are growing. It was really good at that because actually you could right down to the, you know, the pixel size.

00:35:31:15 - 00:35:53:15
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Yeah. As opposed to what our eyes could do. So I think there's there's some significant benefits to come in when we're looking at some really simple things even locally from being out of pull information, out of medical records and again, give guidance to clinicians around this patient might be starting to become more unwell at an earlier point and sending flags and signals so that people can intervene earlier.

00:35:54:00 - 00:36:01:13
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
All of those things can only deliver better outcomes for patients and also for our clinicians because we know clinician likes a patient to get sick of. You know.

00:36:02:10 - 00:36:28:19
Daniel Franco
I heard some really. So I think one thing that's excited me the most and and I don't know if it's common knowledge, but if you if you think about all the data that we have in the world, right. Like there is, I don't know an enormous amount of data and you know, we use the cancer scenario if if Joe Bloggs has a cancer, right, We call it lung cancer.

00:36:28:19 - 00:36:54:23
Daniel Franco
And he's a 20, 28 year old male in, you know, Anglo-Saxon male living in such and such in in Australia, this is his blood type. This is this is all the details about this individual. I has the ability to go and scan all that data of all the people who've had the similar type of cancer in the world with the same blood type, all the same situations.

00:36:54:23 - 00:37:16:04
Daniel Franco
These are the drugs they use at a 90% success, right? Like ability just to find that information as opposed to here's the drug that your oncologist suggests because they're working with the pharmaceutical company that gives you that drug I like. I just feel like that's the most exciting thing when we're talking about longevity of life and health. I think that's very exciting.

00:37:16:20 - 00:37:37:24
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Yeah, I think that personalized care is going to become more and more important and we're starting to see it apply really importantly into some of the rare diseases. So it's it's a version of that where you've got rare diseases, collaborators pooling all of this information and saying, you know, I've got this patient with X, Y, Z, can we work out what it is?

00:37:37:24 - 00:38:01:04
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Yeah, and I will hide that massively. Now, that doesn't necessarily deliver a a improved outcome for some patients. It does, but it actually gives you an answer back to that question about we're not good about not knowing. Yeah, that can be really helpful both for the the individual with the condition and also their families because these are often children.

00:38:01:17 - 00:38:22:06
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
But I think just to defend our oncologist a little bit, most aren't deciding based on what drug they call well-defined protocols. But yes, and in fact, there's been some recent stuff announced around some of this. And the using genetics as well as everything else to direct people to the best cancer trials that are available and the best treatments that are available.

00:38:22:14 - 00:38:42:24
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
So up to date, my husband's in oncology, pharmacist. It's been about, you know, working through the protocols and the evidence and saying this currently is the protocol suite for these sorts of cancers. It's all signed off, but all of that will be able to become automated yeah, you will still need a clinician to make sure that the information you put in is correct and the stuff you're pulling out actually matches.

00:38:42:24 - 00:38:58:11
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Yeah, because sometimes it's in the fine detail. And if one of those fine details gets left out of that process, it can make a big difference. So I think there still absolutely will be a role for clinicians in navigating that process. But to be guided to the place first will be massively beneficial.

00:38:58:11 - 00:39:18:20
Daniel Franco
Yeah, Yeah. So for clarity, I wasn't going down the conspiracy of Big Pharma. It wasn't that. It wasn't. It was more the it's just a bit more localized, Right. I think is the point now. We've gone down a rabbit hole. I want to come back up and to sort of still pace our way through your career before before you become the CEO of, let's say, health.

00:39:20:04 - 00:39:50:22
Daniel Franco
You were you're in W.A. at what was a time in the world that was you know, there's this little event that went on, we little, little bug called COVID 19. And you were you were working in the quarantine and hospital in the hotel and well, I can't even begin to imagine the amount of stress and anxiety that you would have had during that time.

00:39:50:22 - 00:39:59:19
Daniel Franco
Can you describe firstly for those who might not know your role at the time and then how you managed through the COVID period?

00:39:59:24 - 00:40:20:22
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Yeah, so I was the incident controller in WG for about 18 months, so I worked directly to the Chief Health Officer and the director general running the health response or leading the health response. So we had a massive team and we had people from a whole lot of other agencies working with us, and we obviously worked really closely with the police in WA as it was here.

00:40:20:22 - 00:40:48:03
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
The police commissioner was in charge of the emergency response. It was, I'd probably say partly because of the length of it singly the most difficult period of my career. And it was full of uncertainty, It was full of juggling a whole lot of priorities, uh, without a lot of evidence, to be honest about what was the right.

00:40:48:03 - 00:40:49:10
Daniel Franco
That's the scary thing, right?

00:40:49:16 - 00:41:22:14
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
And it was population health priorities is public health priorities. There's policing priorities as government priorities. And somehow we had to navigate all of those. And I think it's fair to say at times they collided and conflicted. And really for health care practitioners where, you know, we think about one range of things versus how we do things differently. It was quite challenging then when you added to that that in our hospitals system we had our entire system was worried.

00:41:22:14 - 00:41:43:13
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
They were really worried because we were watching what was going on in Italy in particular initially had a massive impact on health care in Australia because it was one of those places where people and you know, they did run out of ICU beds in Italy and health care professionals were dying in those early days in trying to deal with COVID.

00:41:43:13 - 00:42:23:01
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
And so needless to say, our our health care professionals were worried. They were really worried for their their own and their family's safety as to what would happen. We were really lucky in Australia that that didn't play out, but it didn't change the fact that people had those concerns. And I think the community was worried to a point in time and I think ultimately the processes we had to implement at a human level where we were dealing with them day in, day out, were really very challenging to hear the stories of people trying to get back to Australia and what they had been through, some of them and what they were going through when they

00:42:23:01 - 00:42:49:02
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
got back here and it was trying, it was really trying and that went on and on and on and on. And for the first, you know, people worked ridiculously long hours, so you were tired and you were worn out. But actually the team just kept going and the team really was a team. Everybody bonded when when somebody was down was ready to pick you up and keep you keep you going.

00:42:49:14 - 00:42:51:24
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
But it was a pretty tough period and I wouldn't want to do it again.

00:42:52:20 - 00:42:56:08
Daniel Franco
To have a sense of post-traumatic stress. Looking back on it.

00:42:56:08 - 00:43:23:09
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Yeah, I think I do. And I think actually many, many people who were involved at that level do it. You know, it's been well, I've almost I guess it's almost coming up to two years since the borders opened. Um, and whenever we all get together, it's the first thing we go back to talking about. It hasn't left anybody's brain, as best I can tell, who was in that environment at the time.

00:43:23:09 - 00:43:26:21
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
And everybody's got multiple war stories to tell and swap about it.

00:43:27:15 - 00:43:29:02
Daniel Franco
What was was one of yours?

00:43:30:13 - 00:44:05:07
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Look, I think there's probably too many to be specific. WA had a love hate relationship with cruise ships and other ships and managing some of those is indelibly printed in my brain about what we had to do to keep the community safe as well as the people on board safe. And that went from cruise vessels with quite elderly people who had been, you know, obliviously traveling the world to having to get them back home to the other side of the world in a a time where we had three or four of these cruise ships in the very early days.

00:44:05:13 - 00:44:30:06
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
And how you navigated that and the amazing effort put in by some of our public health experts who had also been to Japan, to the cruise ship to guide that process was phenomenal all the way down to usually iron ore carriers where you couldn't move them when they would come in with COVID on board and how you navigated that in small regional port towns and cheap carriers.

00:44:30:16 - 00:44:39:10
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
We had a range of them. We had a whole wall full of ships that had in our command center kind of just reminding us every day, but we got quite expert at it.

00:44:39:10 - 00:45:16:21
Daniel Franco
And how do you deal with the situation where you're working long hours, you're tired, you're doing your best possible job with the limited information that you have. Everyone in the team is giving it their all. It's all in like that's our attitude. Yet the public are just throwing criticism your way and throwing, you know, one little security yard leak or whatever it might be, and then the public just turn their back and you just go, I individually and as a team, we as a team cannot give more of ourselves.

00:45:17:14 - 00:45:23:22
Daniel Franco
But yet you get this criticism back. How did you manage that situation?

00:45:23:22 - 00:45:49:24
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Oh, I'm not sure it's really the public, to be honest. I think it is driven by the press. Yeah. I mean, um, and those I don't know how you separate where the line is between those two, but I accept the press is there to do a job. And that was, you know, that was what happened during COVID. It was, you know, that particular scenario was highly anxiety provoking.

00:45:49:24 - 00:46:14:22
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
You know, every morning I'd wake up to say, what am I, COVID results today? And have I got a security guard? Yeah, because it was very, very stressful. At the end of the day, you can only do what you can do, and then you have to know your own limitation. You have to know where your line in the sand is, whether it's you physically, mentally or from the perspective of Have I crossed my values line, This is not the right place for me to be.

00:46:14:23 - 00:46:31:09
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
You know, you do need to surround yourself with people because there'll be many little heroes that you'll get over with the right people around you who will say they're there, It's fine, it's okay. We know or have you tried this or whatever it might be. But at the end of the day, if you reach that line, you have to get out.

00:46:31:09 - 00:46:32:02
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
You don't have a choice.

00:46:33:03 - 00:47:09:19
Daniel Franco
Yeah. Look after your own health. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's the question. And this might be a this is probably a philosophical question, but I'm going to throw it in. But what rose to the senior health professionals have on managing what is an immediate thing like the COVID 19 disease and dealing people with getting sick there and then versus the I think the prevention of other issues such as I mean, when we during COVID, we saw the suicides and mental health issues, you know, rising astronomically.

00:47:09:19 - 00:47:27:16
Daniel Franco
We saw domestic violence, we saw businesses going bust, like how do you manage the two worlds as a health professional? I mean, you know that I've got to save someone and work with someone. Now who's in front of me. But if we close borders, if we close hospitals, if we do this, if we do that, of going to have this whole other issue.

00:47:27:16 - 00:47:39:05
Daniel Franco
I mean, you said you said before off air, we talked about hospitals in the health industry being systemic. And if you pull one lever, it sets off a whole bunch of other levers. How do you manage that situation?

00:47:39:15 - 00:48:00:16
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
And was a it was a complex matrix in that. And I think you can use those principles no matter where you go and what you do. And as I said at the start, there was many more players in the game than just health, and that had to be so because all of those factors were important and nobody knew and done it before.

00:48:00:17 - 00:48:22:14
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Yeah, you go back, there's no playbook. You go back 100 years. But interestingly, we did do a lot of the same things as it turns out, but it was a very different environment 100 years ago to what it was now. And I think if we did it again in hopefully not next year, but maybe, you know, whenever the next one comes along, we will have actually learned quite a lot about what made a difference and what didn't.

00:48:22:23 - 00:48:43:06
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
The difficulty with COVID was we didn't actually know enough about the disease and it was evolving very quickly over that time as well. So all we could do was actually try to map it out just the same as you would with any other problem. What are the risks? What are the benefits of each of those things? Except it was multifactorial and it was a bit more like a Rubik's cube than just a matrix.

00:48:43:08 - 00:49:03:06
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Yeah, about what impact? So if you're making a decision around schools, what impact is that likely to have on the disease transmission? What impact is it likely to have on people's health? And that's not just children who are children. Mix me. So there was these complex models around who each group mixed with and what the impact of that would be.

00:49:03:15 - 00:49:31:02
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
And then you did the economic modeling. Treasury did not help around each of the different components of that and the impact of it. There was always and there always is unintended consequences. And you don't necessarily get all of them right upfront. So I think reflecting back it, it's there's certainly lessons that we've all learned. I think it's pretty clear that closing the international borders didn't really stop COVID coming into the country.

00:49:31:08 - 00:49:54:09
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
If we'd kept the borders open, we would have had a lot more climate. But there's also no doubt in my mind that that impacted some people quite significantly. Um, and that would go across every decision that got made during COVID, the impact it had on different people. You know, I had a son in New South Wales who was new to New South Wales, got there, basically got into that last long lockdown.

00:49:54:19 - 00:50:22:18
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
And for him that was really difficult. Yeah. Yet we know for some other people actually they thrived more in that environment. So it's it's you can never be 100% right. I think on those sorts of things for every single person in the community because we're all different. So the impact is going to be vastly different and people would say there were value judgments, they probably were, but governments did the best they could at the time with the information they were provided.

00:50:22:20 - 00:50:48:03
Daniel Franco
Yeah, you said if it was to happen again, we're better prepared. What happens if it happens in 50 years? When do I think? My question is when does complacency set in, When do we do you know what I mean? How do we make sure that this doesn't happen again? I think we can never be too sure that there might be another leak or whatever it might be, and the disease gets harder.

00:50:48:03 - 00:51:02:24
Daniel Franco
You can't prevent that. I understand. But the preparation of you know, if if we shut borders straight away in ground Zero, then we, you know, this that communication, How do we manage that whole situation?

00:51:03:03 - 00:51:26:10
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Well, if I thought I could manage the whole world, I'd be brilliant at managing what I've got to hear. Yeah. So I think we should not be under any illusion that we as a global community will do something different. Because for all the things we've just talked about, you know, we don't really know what happened and we probably never will.

00:51:26:21 - 00:51:53:11
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
And maybe, maybe China could have done something different, but we don't really know. We don't really know when they knew all of there's just so many unknowns. Would Australia do that if it had this? Will? I guess you would hope that if we discovered a novel thing that somehow got created in Australia, we might lock ourselves in. But I couldn't put my hand on heart and say that would happen because you will be open to criticism.

00:51:53:11 - 00:52:16:24
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
I mean, what we saw during COVID was the media vilifying anybody who had covered, even if you were not at fault from getting at some of the, you know, the hounding that completely innocent individuals who managed to get COVID got was unbelievable. They camped outside their houses. So if you were the root cause of one of these outbreaks, I'm I don't know.

00:52:16:24 - 00:52:22:13
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
I don't know that people would come out and be really open and say, it was me. We did it. We've got to shut the shop, whatever.

00:52:22:18 - 00:52:23:04
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

00:52:24:16 - 00:52:25:21
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
I guess you hope they would.

00:52:26:13 - 00:52:27:14
Daniel Franco
A true leader would win.

00:52:27:14 - 00:52:48:06
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
They a true leader who really had the strong strength of courage would. But that's not necessarily where it always happens. Yeah. So I think you got to be realistic. So that then comes about will how how then do you, do you come in to the fore and I guess make those next steps in, in protecting your community as best you can.

00:52:49:14 - 00:53:14:01
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
And I think we will be better off and I think in 50 years, yep, complacency will have come in. We will have all been focused on something different. I'll be dead by then, but but I, I would hope that there will be some enduring strategies that have come forward through that period and that we at least know the bits that will definitively make differences and we will think differently about some things.

00:53:14:01 - 00:53:34:15
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
And one of the things I would hope is that we wouldn't have to shut playgrounds. Yeah, you know, if you had a pandemic, do we really have to shut the playgrounds? Because I think that was one of the saddest things. Everybody will remember the footage of the police tape basically around playground. Yeah, yeah. And I think knowing what we know now, the risk in playgrounds was relatively small.

00:53:35:00 - 00:53:58:08
Daniel Franco
Mhm. My grade we, we had a Elaine BINSTED on the show who is the CEO of Zoos S and they had to shut their doors for the first time in 174 years. And she, she talked to through that as well and the heartbreaking experience of having to shut those doors. But what I could never understand, it's outside but yet we still had to shut door anyway.

00:53:58:09 - 00:54:27:07
Daniel Franco
Let's not get into that situation. We did touch on leadership and leadership during crisis. I mean, leadership in in its own right is bloody difficult. It's it's I can't even I kind of. Yeah. Anyway, anyone who's a leader understands how difficult leadership is, but in a time of crisis I, I think it is one of those things that has the ability to really tear people down.

00:54:27:14 - 00:54:38:19
Daniel Franco
You know, we talked about post-traumatic stress or what you went through. What were some of those critical learnings that you learned during leading through crisis?

00:54:38:19 - 00:55:21:20
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Look, I think communication is one of them. And so you've got to be communicating up and down all the time and of the big things we saw was that during COVID in particular, we you formed a team and there was as much difficulty due to workload, etc. within the team as there were for the people who perceived themselves to sit outside of the team and felt excluded so that ability to harness the strengths of the groups who went directly involved with the response but still had stuff to offer and at least have a shared understanding of what was going on is one of those really critical things because that was really tough, because these are

00:55:21:20 - 00:55:50:19
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
your colleagues who felt disenfranchized and disempowered. Yet over here the people were drowning. Yeah, and we didn't have that shared understanding. So I think once once you worked that out, we were able to resolve that. But that is one thing for me that I would always try to remember going forward that how do you make sure that even for the groups who aren't absolutely directly involved, they understand what's going on and the reasons why things are happening in the way they are to the best of your ability.

00:55:51:03 - 00:55:55:18
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Now, that shouldn't have really been a surprise because we know that communication and keeping people up to date. Yeah.

00:55:55:18 - 00:56:14:13
Daniel Franco
Um, but I guess it's important. There's different levels of communication there. I like the and the different, the amount of detail that goes into communication. I think there's even some nuances in all that when you're saying communicate, is it just tell everyone everything or is it tell them what they need to know so they can continue to do what they have to do.

00:56:14:14 - 00:56:35:17
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
It's a balance in that. And for for close colleagues who have been working together on business as usual things, it was really about that suddenly, because everybody was focused on COVID, all the regular discussions had stopped. So our ability to do our normal interactions and that bouncing and all those things you do as part of your normal business disappeared overnight.

00:56:35:17 - 00:57:18:06
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
So it was a bit about those relationships as well as what the actual information. Yeah, And I think the other thing I would say about leadership is you do need resilience and I think everybody understands that and we are actually all human underneath. But to a certain extent those human pieces need to be held a little bit separate and you need to be strong with your time to support them, to be out there, to be smiling, to be reassuring them, to be sharing the right level of concern, sometimes disheartened at whatever it might be.

00:57:18:18 - 00:57:39:04
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
But actually, if you can have a meltdown, you've got to go have it with your mates behind the closed door with your close confidence because your team needs to feel that you in control and that you're leading them in the right direction. In a crisis. So it's not that you can't we do have weaknesses and at times we're all going to be overwhelmed.

00:57:39:06 - 00:57:57:03
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Yes. Otherwise you are a robot and robots don't usually do that well in this sort of thing. So you've got to have your support structure where you can go and have that meltdown in the back room and say, I don't know what I'm doing or you know, I'm tired and I'm falling apart and I've only eaten jam twice for six days.

00:57:58:03 - 00:58:00:21
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
And then you go back out and it's right time. We're on this. We've got it.

00:58:02:05 - 00:58:25:01
Daniel Franco
So question on that. The team that you pick to help you through this crisis, the team that you picked to help you lead an organization like, say, Health Department of Health and Wellbeing, are you able to share your downs with your immediate team or is it are you saying don't share those downs, go off and do it with people?

00:58:25:01 - 00:58:58:22
Daniel Franco
That's okay. This is say let's use a really typical scenario of what a business would look like. CEO, CFO, CEO, you know, those sort of can the CEO in the room with those this call that so there was a CFO and a CIO can they you know barrel and just go I just need help here. We've got to figure this out together or are you saying, no, no, no, you going you can't do that outside and still bring that that visionary self into that meeting.

00:58:59:01 - 00:59:28:20
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Know, the problem solving definitely happens at that level as you've just described because you can't do outside and there you will always have people in your team. We you will have more of those conversations and I think sometimes it's things you can't discuss with your team for a range of reasons. They are confidential. They cross jurisdictions across agencies, might be government discussion.

00:59:30:06 - 01:00:01:09
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
And so there's always a degree of what you can talk about and what you can put on the table. My rule of thumb is I'll tell you everything I know, unless I can't and if I can't, I'll tell you I can't tell you. Yeah. So that people know that they've got the full level of information. But I guess what I'm talking about is I'm having a really terrible day because I feel like I haven't been able to do this to the best of my ability for reasons X, Y, Z.

01:00:02:01 - 01:00:23:22
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
I feel like I have my hands tied behind my back. I might have made a different decision, and that's causing me internal, you know, distress. And it's not necessary that the decision was made was wrong, just that it might not have been what I would have preferred. And you can't always have that conversation even with your direct reports necessarily.

01:00:24:17 - 01:00:43:10
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
So it might be a conversation that I have with my boss. Depending who it is, it might be a conversation I have with my very closest colleagues who I've known for 30 years. Yeah. Who are at a senior level might be a conversation you have with a colleague from another jurisdiction. Yeah. Where you just all facing the same thing and you go, Oh yeah, I get that kind of thing.

01:00:43:17 - 01:00:51:05
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
It's not actually often you're not asking anybody to solve a problem, it's just bouncing that and that collegiate support that says, it's okay.

01:00:51:15 - 01:00:52:20
Daniel Franco
I need to vent. Yeah.

01:00:53:00 - 01:01:10:02
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Yeah, it is. It's venting. Yeah. Um, it's okay. You can keep going kind of thing. Yeah, because otherwise, what do you do with that? You take that home and you put it on your partner. That's not really fair either. No. And plus they're not living and breathing it in the same way. They provide a different sort of support.

01:01:10:05 - 01:01:12:09
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Mm.

01:01:12:09 - 01:01:33:23
Daniel Franco
Very good. Great advice. I like that. So I'm going to tell you everything that I know, unless I can't. And then when I can, I'm going to tell you that I can't. Yeah, I don't really like that. Right. Let's move into the world of moving to South Australia. So welcome. You know, we're going to claim you as our own now.

01:01:33:23 - 01:01:50:01
Daniel Franco
That's what we do here in South Australia. So I am interested in your story about how you got recruited into the department. I mean, why not take this the wrong way? But why you like what was your sell? What? Why did you get tapped on the shoulder or why did you apply? Or what was the what was the North Star?

01:01:50:01 - 01:01:51:18
Daniel Franco
What was the vision? What did they pick?

01:01:52:05 - 01:02:17:11
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Robyn Lawrence I probably can't tell you why they picked Robyn to ask the panel that and but for me and I mean they these processes are fairly similar, the world over, I think executive appointments, sometimes they're out there, sometimes they're not, but usually there's a recruitment agent in the middle of it somewhere. Yeah. And their job is to go out and find as many people for the panel as possible.

01:02:17:11 - 01:02:42:21
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Yeah. So in that search I stumbled across me in sitting in WA on a day where I was thinking, What am I doing here? And the opportunity for me was right at the time for a range of reasons in that, you know, my kids are growing up in South Australia, which actually from Western Australia was very convenient. Yep, that nice halfway house, not quite to the far, far east.

01:02:42:24 - 01:03:06:03
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
The gateway is the gateway. Our, our parents are still, you know, fit and healthy, relatively young, and we had the flexibility to be able to do what we wanted. You know, opportunities over the years have come up. But when you've got a young family and you're entire family support structure is in one state and you're in WA and it's a really long way from anywhere else, it's very difficult.

01:03:06:03 - 01:03:27:22
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Yeah. So for me, this opportunity came around at exactly the right time from a personal perspective as well as from a professional perspective, because I've been a senior exec in W.A. for a really long time and have done a range of different roles quite often twice. And so I was back doing a role that I'd done previously in kind of 2008.

01:03:27:23 - 01:03:54:02
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Yeah, well like, okay, I can go and do something different. So I think for me it was about a perfect timing and a really nice opportunity to see what I could do at this level and to lead a different health system, albeit that being an Australian health system, it's very alive. And I was quite shocked when I got here to find that we were negotiating the same contracts we were doing in the same time lines in WA.

01:03:54:04 - 01:03:54:18
Daniel Franco
Yeah, well.

01:03:55:10 - 01:04:00:16
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
But overall, you know, it's very similar to W.A.. Yeah.

01:04:01:11 - 01:04:15:01
Daniel Franco
But, but what was your pitch like? You know, when you if we know that from an executive appointment, you have look at the business and sort of make some recommendations on what you would do should you come in, what Well.

01:04:15:01 - 01:04:44:14
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
I think it would be no surprise that one of the key discussions through that process was around what could I bring to improving our emergency access system and ambulance response times and ramping. And and I had led a program previously in WA around this back in 2000 and height onwards, the four hour rule program, as we called it back then moved off to the NHS.

01:04:44:22 - 01:05:04:19
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
So I had some views on that. But change had become my my thing, so it actually didn't matter whether I had done that before or not. I'd done so much change that I thought I had something to offer in being to guide that process with the times that was here. And there was already a lot of work underway, so I wasn't starting from scratch by any stretch of the imagination.

01:05:05:09 - 01:05:15:01
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
But I would say that was one of the things that was a strength of mine. Plus we've got the new Women's and Children's Hospital and some experience in.

01:05:15:01 - 01:05:16:04
Daniel Franco
Leading hospital.

01:05:16:04 - 01:05:32:07
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Hospitals, hospital redevelopments, and I guess I've got a mix of both operational, having been a CEO of an LH in equivalent a number of chains in WA as well as a department background which is relatively unusual.

01:05:32:09 - 01:05:33:12
Daniel Franco
Mhm. Unicorn.

01:05:33:19 - 01:05:37:02
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Is that what I, I don't know if I'm a unicorn, in fact I could never claim they.

01:05:37:22 - 01:05:58:17
Daniel Franco
Will claim it. That's going to be the title of the podcast. I think it's a points unicorn. Now I would. So what, what does the, what does the next I mean how long is the contract for. Is it five years out. It's five years. What does the next five years look like? What? What have you got your sights set on?

01:05:58:17 - 01:06:07:20
Daniel Franco
I think I saw in the media recently that there's these 27, 27 rapid actions that are in place right now and what we have.

01:06:07:20 - 01:06:31:24
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
So there's a massive piece of work being undertaken and the bulk of the work occurs out in the local health networks, to be honest, to improve our access to our emergency departments. Yeah. Now that's got to sit alongside our focus on all the other parts of our business as well elective surgery outpatients, chronic disease management, all of the things you would expect in a well-functioning health system.

01:06:32:24 - 01:06:58:05
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
And we've got pieces of work around all of those. Importantly for me, that doesn't sit in isolation. I see my role very much, not only in guiding that, but also in providing valuable input at our cross-agency forums. Senior Leadership Council, an integral member of the CI government system, not just health. Yeah. And then if I look at a national level, there's a massive pace ongoing now around national health reform.

01:06:58:17 - 01:07:19:17
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
So South Australia needs to be front and center of that. I've got some really strong on things we need to be doing to guide our health system for the next 50 years, beyond that of which I'll be experiencing it. But we've had a health system, a universal health care system, which was, you know, in its current form started kind of 40 plus years ago.

01:07:20:13 - 01:07:39:00
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
And the state component of that is one component, but it's broader. You know, that piece we see out in the community, the piece we all use more than anything saying our general practitioner, our dental, all of those sorts of things, aged care, India, these are all, you know, integral component of what we need for our future going forward.

01:07:39:10 - 01:08:09:05
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
And South Australia needs to be positioned front and center at that table in the discussions. And I say that as a really core component of my role. So it's quite broad and there's the here and now and fixing the issues we've got in front of us and making sure people can access our system. But was doing that. I don't want to lose sight of the fact that we should be looking to our future because only if we can continue to improve that broader structure that we sit within will with the changes we make here and now actually continue to bring benefit into the future.

01:08:09:05 - 01:08:09:10
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Yeah.

01:08:10:15 - 01:08:32:07
Daniel Franco
So I don't want to touch on this subject really quickly and I do, I do like talking more about future, but I want to ask you, I mean the ramping thing is, is one that is like in the political and I don't I'm not really interested in the nuts and bolts, but what I am interested in is can it, can it be fixed?

01:08:32:07 - 01:08:34:12
Daniel Franco
Is it something that we can see success in?

01:08:34:23 - 01:09:02:24
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Absolutely. I mean, we fixed in the past. Yeah. Or at least substantially improved it right around the country. So I've got absolute confidence that can be improved dramatically. What we've seen to date is some baby steps in that process. What is different this time, though, is that the external environment is moving very rapidly. So we're post-COVID. There's a whole lot of things that have changed.

01:09:02:24 - 01:09:22:20
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
We've got a rapidly aging population and South Australia is one of those states that has the highest rate of aging. Yeah, that sounds a bit weird, but we are aging more rapidly than others because of people coming back to the state at an older age as opposed to some other states where there are people coming into the state, a younger, younger as know.

01:09:22:21 - 01:09:49:07
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
So it's a complex environment. Then we've got the confounders of disability and aged care in the background and the the changes that have been made around those is resulting in reduction in access, particularly in aged care where we are losing beds. And that's that's not a secret. Yeah. Because of rules and regulations plus the fact that people have to manage their businesses in those spaces.

01:09:49:22 - 01:10:14:24
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
So it's a highly complex environment. Governments are putting money in right across the country as they are here, into additional beds, additional workforce and additional strategies. And as quickly as we are doing that, there's confounders in the background that are pulling beds out of the back end of the system in age care setting. So we've got to get better at how we bring all those things together to make them work as a holistic pace.

01:10:14:24 - 01:10:34:14
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
So I think it absolutely can be solved. It won't. The strategies and structures we use the first time around will work for the systems we've got the mean at the present time, which is our hospital system, but we've got to broaden those out it out to pick up these other systems where we had to intervene less the last time we did this.

01:10:35:02 - 01:10:54:11
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
So I've got confidence. I think it's going to take time and it needs everybody engaged in it. I can't make those changes. All I can do is guide the system and provide the authorizing environment almost to say it's okay to make these changes. Please do what you can at your end in a structured way. It has to happen.

01:10:54:11 - 01:11:11:09
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
The system holistically. It's not much good if one of our hospitals does a brilliant job. Yeah, and the other one doesn't keep pace because all that happens is the work shifts and you fail. So that's what we're working on. And and as I say, we're making small gains. We've got a long way to go.

01:11:11:09 - 01:11:29:02
Daniel Franco
Yeah. When you say time, really basically this is just an ongoing thing. It's like I look at it as in you go to the gym, I want to get a six pack. So over the next six months I do everything in my power to get this six pack or 12 months, however long it takes. But then you got to maintain it, right?

01:11:29:02 - 01:11:57:15
Daniel Franco
Like, that's the thing. It's this thing if you don't maintain. So it's I don't think it's as simple as pushing a button and all of a sudden we've got no issues with ramping know this is a this is an ongoing problem. But help me understand with my money ends of the brain. Help me understand that if we've got a problem with workforce and we've got an aging population and those that the standard deviation just getting far to one, we we can solve this problem.

01:11:59:04 - 01:12:20:06
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
If we took that view, we'd never solve anything. Yeah. So I think we've got to take the view that we've got what we've got and any change process will always have to be done within the limitations. What you've got now, that's not to say new things can't come in because there's always opportunity coming at you that you might not have seen yet.

01:12:21:13 - 01:12:50:01
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
But if I take simplistically start with capacity, well, have we got enough capacity so you can model that out? Well, what happens if we can get more of the people who are currently using Service X to use service Y? Or we could provide that care at home. Can we do that with virtual care as an example? So you've got a whole pile of levers you can pull, but you've got to start by mapping the process and saying, Where are the bottlenecks in this process?

01:12:50:12 - 01:13:06:24
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
How can I remove those bottlenecks really simplistically? And then how do I embed that? And it's the embedding, which is the pace you're talking about keeping the six pack. If we don't embed it and we just change it now and tomorrow we go back and do what we did yesterday. Yeah, and we don't change will always be reverting back.

01:13:07:07 - 01:13:35:07
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
And one of the things we've seen post-COVID is that a lot of those things that we had in place had to change because we couldn't manage COVID patients and the volumes and the types of cases we had at the time with the uncertainty we had with the models had at the time. Now it's really challenging to wind that back in and you got to do that whole change process again just to get back to the way we used to do things, plus the steps we now to do because of all the new constraints that might be coming in different population.

01:13:35:24 - 01:13:45:23
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Cope It hasn't gone away, no surprise. Yeah. So we're still having to manage and fit that in as well. But you've got to go back to basics. Do you change process from the grassroots up and then embed it?

01:13:46:06 - 01:14:03:09
Daniel Franco
It's music to my ears. It's a great answer. I think it is. You get you've got to break it down to systems that it's playing and then understand what is the root cause and then build it back up from there. Great job, Will. I'm interested to keep watching that scenario happy to help. Should you need anything, just to throw a plug in there.

01:14:04:03 - 01:14:37:13
Daniel Franco
My understanding also around health industry, having done a bit of work with sales over the years is that and not just health, say health, but the health health industry as a as a general subject of general industry, culture of an organization is one which in pockets can be seen as toxic, it can be seen as hierarchical, it can be seen as positive and engaging.

01:14:37:13 - 01:15:03:24
Daniel Franco
You can be all of the above, right? I'm focusing purely on the on the lesser of those. How Do we And how does Robin and her team act in the health world of South Australia and lead 45,000 people and come and change it and into a culture of high performing and visionary? And I mean, do we want to be world leaders like?

01:15:03:24 - 01:15:06:21
Daniel Franco
Where are we going and what culture are we looking to build?

01:15:07:14 - 01:15:30:21
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Absolutely. We want an aspirational culture and that would include being world leaders, employer of choice and all of those things. But importantly for me, what I would really like is a place where people want to come to work and that they're happy when they're there. And I've been lucky. I have most of my time in health. I've felt that health is part of my family.

01:15:30:21 - 01:15:54:05
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Yep, And quite often I've seen more of them than my family. We don't have any friends from here or our kids sport. Yeah. So to me that that is it. It's a it's a homely place. How do I lead that? I'm not a very technical person. I guess I lead it by trying to be the best person I can and trying to share that person with those around me.

01:15:54:22 - 01:16:29:09
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
And there's no way on earth I can say all 40,000 people in our system, even in a year. So it's how you can I guess, hopefully the way you work and the way you would like to see the system work builds in your team and that builds in their teams, etc., all the way down. And some of it some really simple things about sharing of information, working together as a team and and considering each other as colleagues and some of those things just break down barriers instantly.

01:16:29:19 - 01:16:52:22
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
And if you can run all the way down, problem pipeline is something that I learned about a really long time ago. It might be one of those really few technical things I keep in my brain. And one of the things that's really frustrating to people is when they elevating issues and it doesn't get beyond that next level. Yeah, so really strongly encouraging people not to do nothing about stuff that gets elevated to them.

01:16:53:07 - 01:17:11:18
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
But also if you as a senior manager get something elevated to usually means there is some sort of issue below. Yeah and it might not be the one that's been elevated to you, it might be something else. But to investigate that and then to support the team to resolve it, because if you have to step in and fix everything, that undermines your team as well.

01:17:11:19 - 01:17:34:18
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
So whether it's coaching, skilling, mentoring, whatever it might be to help those teams resolve those issues, but being responsive to the little things is one of the things I always like to pay attention to. And being in health, probably being in government, it's really easy for people to get your. So it's not unusual for me to get an email from somebody saying I don't know how to access car parking at hospital.

01:17:34:18 - 01:17:57:03
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Why? I don't know how to access car parking hospital, why either. But I will always try to respond to that, even though, you know, that's probably not really it's not even in my skillset because I don't know where how to access it, but simply responding to that person, giving them a suggestion is really important. Hmm. Putting a face to a name that sends out messages all the time is also really important.

01:17:57:03 - 01:18:08:04
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
So doing the best you can to share yourself with the team and hoping that that filters down. It's not a very structured strategy, but I think it is actually effective.

01:18:08:04 - 01:18:26:05
Daniel Franco
Well, I think I mean, you would have heard this saying before, the fish rots from the top. So it's refreshing that you're saying those things. But how do you how do we make sure that it does filter down? Because what you're saying is is is great. But I mean, you're one person, like it stops it. It stops at some level.

01:18:26:05 - 01:18:28:08
Daniel Franco
How do we build this?

01:18:28:08 - 01:18:41:10
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
And then all of that. It comes from your recruitment, doesn't it? Yeah, right. And you ideally recruit people into the system who come with similar values to what you want to see throughout the organization.

01:18:41:11 - 01:18:41:18
Daniel Franco
I mean.

01:18:42:17 - 01:19:03:03
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
At the end of the day, that's a broad base. And in fact, I don't do all the recruitment. So you are dependent on actually using some of that. I call them guardrails. Yeah. Guardrails and setting what you want the organization to achieve, how you would like them to achieve it, not in not in the what they do, but in the value set and the outcomes you would like them to achieve.

01:19:03:17 - 01:19:23:02
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
And then you turn that over them and you monitor it to, to do your best to drive that performance and the value set. And you call out, you know, in my interactions, if I see those value sets not being reflected, then you've got to call them out and you drive it through that way. So I guess it's a bit bottom up and top down.

01:19:23:03 - 01:19:26:10
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Oh, I set the guardrails and then monitor and a sure.

01:19:26:10 - 01:19:45:20
Daniel Franco
I think the thing with culture is that it is an outcome. So you're right, it is top down, bottom up. It's all the above, it's side to side. It's diagonally, it's everything. And I think it's just the way the ecosystem works is but but it does start with the individuals and it starts with the teams and it starts with the leaders.

01:19:45:20 - 01:20:21:00
Daniel Franco
And it's like ever it's an everyone problem. It's not the CEO's problem, it's not the chief people officers problem or the chief people and cultures of head of people and culture. It's not their problem. No one owns culture. Everyone owns culture. So I'm looking forward to seeing how you how you roll that out. Do you think as a as you I mean, you said that you want to say health to be an employer of choice, but yet we're in a world where workforce shortages are like the everyone's problem.

01:20:21:10 - 01:20:28:22
Daniel Franco
Yeah. What do you think will attract people to working with the organization?

01:20:28:22 - 01:21:00:11
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Well, I think health care is one of those things where people do come with altruistic. Hmm. Most people don't come to health care for many reasons other than they want to look after people in some way. Yeah. So that is that is the starting point. The working in the public health system, which is essentially what we have. Then you have the opportunity to give to a very large group of our population.

01:21:01:20 - 01:21:37:24
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
We are serving some of the most disadvantaged groups. We are the group. The public system is, the group that doesn't doesn't differentiate based on where you've come from or how much money you've got and in fact is very much there for one and should be there for those who need it most. So for people who truly want to give back, if we can build that into our essence, then that will be a drawcard for others, this thing such as teaching, training and research and the opportunities to do those in our system, and there will be other other things that bring people to our system.

01:21:37:24 - 01:21:50:04
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
But they're the two things that I think are our strengths is the ability to serve our community as well as to be able to grow on those things that you might not be able to do in a more private healthcare system.

01:21:50:07 - 01:22:23:23
Daniel Franco
MM Yes, I think. Kim, do you think that there's opportunity to get back into the schools and I'm trying to get in to fix it, but how do we how do we get people excited about it? I think COVID might put people off a little because it was one of those where we saw on the news every single night that, you know, when the world stops because of a medical emergency or a health emergency, um, it is those people in that industry that are put to the test the most.

01:22:24:12 - 01:22:48:03
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
And I don't think we've got a dearth of people wanting to become health professionals in general or clinicians. What we do have is people working less hours than what they did and choosing where they might undertake that practice and how they might undertake that practice. So it's not just it's not actually just the public system that's got shortages.

01:22:48:03 - 01:22:58:14
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
We've got shortages everywhere, everywhere. So but we don't have less doctors or nurses or physios than we had before. We've got more and we're still graduating more and more.

01:22:59:05 - 01:23:00:09
Daniel Franco
But it's going up.

01:23:00:09 - 01:23:21:15
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
The population is going up, you know, even since I started, which now does feel like the Dark Ages ago, the hours we work have come down appropriately. And if we look at our younger colleagues graduating, their expectation about how and when they will work is vastly different. I didn't even think about it when I graduated. You just knew you were going to come to work and you're going to work what you were told to.

01:23:21:15 - 01:23:43:13
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Yeah, What? Kids don't think like that. And I don't think any of our new graduates do either. So we have to adapt and be ready for this workforce. This is a workforce and these are young people who have gone through university in school during COVID where they didn't actually have to go. And we taught them from home. And in health care we say, Well, now we want you to come to work when we tell you to.

01:23:43:21 - 01:24:01:05
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
And it's face to face. It's one of the last industries where that's the case. And for a lot of them, it's going to have to stay that way. There may be some flexibility in some parts of our healthcare setting, but it's actually going to have to come to work and do your work face to face. Yeah, When some of those kids didn't even go to university for two.

01:24:01:05 - 01:24:04:17
Daniel Franco
Years, you can't help a person unless you're with them.

01:24:04:17 - 01:24:30:09
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Yeah, but we've got to learn to adapt to these things. Otherwise we won't keep up with other industries and there will be a risk. I suspect that these young people would choose different careers. Now, that isn't the challenge we've got at the present time. It's how we harness the workforce. We have got to the best in the best way we can to maximize the care volume we can provide.

01:24:31:18 - 01:24:57:23
Daniel Franco
Yes, very good. It's a it's a challenge that every not only the health care industry, but every industry is is facing those questions before we start rounding up. Maintaining a work life balance as a CEO is one of the more difficult things. How do you maintain your self and your mental health and wellbeing and avoid burnout?

01:24:59:14 - 01:25:19:11
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
And I'll pay Woodside rent. Rent. Now life like the Army was military precision and it's evolved over time, you know. So I had pretty strict rules when our kids were little. Yeah, and I've always I've been an early riser, so I'd get up and I'd exercise in the morning really early. Yeah.

01:25:20:08 - 01:25:20:19
Daniel Franco
Hourly.

01:25:20:22 - 01:25:42:15
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
You know, five. Yeah, that's right. And then I try to be in the office between seven and 730. And luckily I had a husband who would do the kid things in the morning, get him to school, all of that sort of stuff. But I always tried to come home and have dinner with the kids and the family and the our kids did lots of sport.

01:25:42:21 - 01:25:46:07
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
That was that was our thing. So we went to work and we went to kid Sports.

01:25:46:07 - 01:25:47:16
Daniel Franco
Yeah, that's my life, right?

01:25:47:16 - 01:26:10:01
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
And that was it. That was all we did. And but that commitment to trying as much as I could to be home for dinner was really important. Since then, I try to maintain the same discipline. Yeah. And so I map everything out within an inch of its life, but I also try to have a cut off time. I have a time my phone goes onto silent with some exceptions.

01:26:10:03 - 01:26:30:18
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Yeah. Put in there and obviously it rings multiple times, but try to have some time. That's just mine. Yeah. And sleep time is really important for me now to make sure that I've got enough rest in that time frame. But I'm a bit like a caged tiger, so I tend to do a lot of walking, which is good for my brain.

01:26:30:18 - 01:26:42:21
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
That's my thinking time, my podcast on Beautiful Walking and something pops into your brain, but it's it's disciplined to yourself and your family, I think, which is really important.

01:26:43:17 - 01:26:51:02
Daniel Franco
I love that. How did did your family play an important role throughout your career?

01:26:51:02 - 01:27:25:08
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
I couldn't have done it without my husband. Yeah, and we have been a team, there's no doubt about it. And if I had the good fortune to have somebody who could support me and share absolutely share in everything we did, it would have been much, much more difficult. I worked part time for a very short part of my career when our kids were really little, but he was always there to better, you know, drop the kids off, pick the kids up, stay home when they were sick, look after them when I was traveling, that sort of stuff.

01:27:25:23 - 01:27:49:01
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
But also it was the thing that gave us an out, you know, having them both be really heavily involved in sport. I also then got into the sport. They're both hockey players. I you know, it was participated as a junior coordinator in the when they're in juniors in your committee to chair the board for quite some time rewrote the constitution.

01:27:49:09 - 01:28:05:13
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
So I've really been actively involved in that and that's been a big part of our outlet. So even now when I go home on a weekend back to Perth, on the occasions I make sure that it's all centered around a hockey weekend and go watch our youngest play hockey and see all our friends at the hockey.

01:28:05:15 - 01:28:06:13
Daniel Franco
How many kids you have?

01:28:06:15 - 01:28:07:15
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Two boys?

01:28:07:15 - 01:28:34:04
Daniel Franco
Yeah. I feel like your what you're saying now is describing my life in its current form. So we are, we're looking, I'm looking to round up now. We've, we've kept you for long enough and I know you have to shoot off soon, but if just one last question. If you could if you could do it over again, would you do anything differently?

01:28:34:04 - 01:28:59:07
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
No, I don't think I would. I think I've I've had a really lucky career from the day I stepped out as a brand new baby intern into probably what was an absolute hotbed of a scenario of a hospital changing from a public hospital to a private hospital, a whole different staffing structure, all way through, and had some absolutely phenomenal opportunities over the years.

01:28:59:15 - 01:29:24:18
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
And I wouldn't change that for love nor money. There's probably some tiny little individual things during the time where you've learned some lessons, but actually without those you don't learn some of the really important stuff. So you've got to face some challenges and I think some adversity and some emotional roller coasters to actually become the person you become as you grow and I guess become more senior in your career and follow the trajectory.

01:29:25:09 - 01:29:29:19
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
So without those things, I wouldn't be who I am now. So I don't think I'd change anything. Yeah.

01:29:30:16 - 01:29:37:16
Daniel Franco
Yeah. Beautiful answer. Rightio, let's jump into some quick fire questions.

01:29:38:03 - 01:29:38:19
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Now was like.

01:29:38:19 - 01:29:46:08
Daniel Franco
Norman Swan But they said they might not be that quick fire but I'll kick off. What excites you about the future.

01:29:48:06 - 01:29:52:05
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
And the opportunities that will bring both at work and personally.

01:29:52:05 - 01:29:55:02
Daniel Franco
Yeah. Yeah. What's one opportunity?

01:29:55:02 - 01:29:56:06
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
There's lots more travel now.

01:29:56:16 - 01:30:00:05
Daniel Franco
I have a very good what are you rating right now.

01:30:01:01 - 01:30:04:14
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Oh my goodness. Some Girly love story. I can't even remember the.

01:30:04:14 - 01:30:05:19
Daniel Franco
Names of your romance books.

01:30:05:19 - 01:30:12:14
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
I know we have around the department. We've got several areas where there's libraries and I just go and pick something random off the shelf.

01:30:12:22 - 01:30:14:05
Daniel Franco
I So you've picked a love story.

01:30:14:08 - 01:30:20:02
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
If I go to where the Collins girls are, it's the girl in romance. If I go somewhere else, it's the the murder mysteries.

01:30:20:15 - 01:30:30:12
Daniel Franco
I'm very good. What's what's one book that that you feel like self-development book that you feel stands out from the crowd.

01:30:31:06 - 01:30:39:12
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
The that I would always recommend on perfect to get the title wrong but I think the first 90 days, which outlines how to approach a new role, is really.

01:30:39:12 - 01:30:46:22
Daniel Franco
Useful. The first 90 days you What's one lesson that's taking the longest to learn?

01:30:48:12 - 01:30:49:14
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Nothing's ever perfect.

01:30:50:02 - 01:31:01:03
Daniel Franco
Nothing's ever. Is that coming from a perfectionist? If you could have coffee with one historical or current figure, who would it be?

01:31:01:13 - 01:31:02:21
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Mark Butler.

01:31:02:21 - 01:31:05:05
Daniel Franco
Mark Butler The MP was.

01:31:06:07 - 01:31:12:15
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Oh, we're working well because that's my bee in the bonnet. But national health reform. So I'd like to really know what he really thinks.

01:31:13:15 - 01:31:21:21
Daniel Franco
Yes, very good. Well, it's like your head's in the game. What? Some of the best advice that you've ever received.

01:31:22:08 - 01:31:32:21
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Look, I think I don't know if anybody ever really said it, but it's, you know, if you don't know, ask because. Because that's what saved my bacon so many times.

01:31:32:22 - 01:31:40:02
Daniel Franco
Yeah. Yeah. Don't pretend that you know it. Yeah. Yeah. What's one habit that holds you back the most?

01:31:41:16 - 01:31:42:16
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
My perfectionism.

01:31:44:17 - 01:31:49:13
Daniel Franco
Is it. Do you think that's kind of contributed to your success, though, or do you?

01:31:50:00 - 01:32:02:07
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Definitely. Because it causes you to do things. I think over time you learn to moderate because if you're too much of a perfectionist, you become too much of a control freak and that becomes very damaging for your teams. So it's that balance.

01:32:02:12 - 01:32:15:20
Daniel Franco
You see it quite often in the medical field. The clinical field is the perfectionism because you almost have to be there's a life on the line. Yeah, it's just when you take that into your everyday life is when it becomes a problem. Yeah. Yeah.

01:32:15:20 - 01:32:18:08
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
And you apply it to your children and perfection.

01:32:18:18 - 01:32:23:20
Daniel Franco
Yeah, that's right. What's your biggest pet peeve?

01:32:23:20 - 01:32:26:06
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
People don't read things before they send them to my office.

01:32:26:19 - 01:32:27:10
Daniel Franco
Spelling errors.

01:32:28:13 - 01:32:31:23
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Yeah, well, when there's a spell check. A yes.

01:32:32:10 - 01:32:36:03
Daniel Franco
If you could pay someone to do your chores. What your. Would it be.

01:32:36:03 - 01:32:37:23
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Scrubbing the grout in my tiles.

01:32:38:02 - 01:32:43:20
Daniel Franco
Or. Yeah. No. Good. No. What's one word? The absolutely hate.

01:32:45:00 - 01:32:48:00
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Oh, no.

01:32:48:21 - 01:32:51:17
Daniel Franco
Oh, really? What about when you said that? The kids.

01:32:53:04 - 01:32:55:19
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
That's their.

01:32:55:19 - 01:33:00:24
Daniel Franco
If. If you were in. Well, what's the first thing that you would do if you became invisible?

01:33:02:10 - 01:33:09:07
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Oh, this is a hard question. You asked me easy ones about work. Um.

01:33:09:15 - 01:33:13:04
Daniel Franco
It's a bit of a creepy nature. This one about.

01:33:13:04 - 01:33:17:21
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Yeah. When I first thing that came to mind was. Go follow my son for a day.

01:33:19:02 - 01:33:25:10
Daniel Franco
You probably won't like what you say. What's the most useless talent they have?

01:33:26:17 - 01:33:36:00
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Like, useless talent? Probably scrubbing the grout. It's a good stress reliever, though.

01:33:36:01 - 01:33:38:14
Daniel Franco
Yeah. Do you do meditation or anything, like.

01:33:38:15 - 01:33:42:03
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
No, I'm terrible at meditation. No, I can't sit there and do nothing. No.

01:33:42:13 - 01:33:43:00
Daniel Franco
Some people.

01:33:43:00 - 01:33:43:21
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Walking.

01:33:43:21 - 01:34:11:02
Daniel Franco
That's your form of meditation. Yeah. Beautiful. Look, that's it from us today. Thank you. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you for sharing your journey and and all the exciting things that are coming away from them. And from a health point of view here in South Australia, really keen to see your tenure. And it's a it's a health and and all the all the changes that I think you are interested in the reform piece.

01:34:11:02 - 01:34:18:17
Daniel Franco
So really excited about all the changes that you're going to bring from A and that it will benefit everyone and benefit the community. So thank you.

01:34:18:24 - 01:34:19:15
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
Thanks Daniel.

01:34:20:05 - 01:34:27:15
Daniel Franco
No worries. That's it from us, everyone. Um, actually one last question. If people want to to follow your story or get in contact, how could they do that?

01:34:28:04 - 01:34:31:14
Dr. Robyn Lawrence
I am on LinkedIn, but I'm not a very prolific social media user.

01:34:31:17 - 01:34:55:17
Daniel Franco
Yes. So, um, about this I will see you in the media anyway. And. And all of the above. Thank you again. Thanks. So cheese, thanks for listening to the podcast. So you can check out the show notes if there anything of interest to you and find out more about us at synergy IQ dot com. So you. I am going to ask though if you did like the podcast, you would absolutely mean world to me if you can subscribe, write and review.

01:34:56:04 - 01:35:08:06
Daniel Franco
And if you didn't like it, that's alright too. There's no need to do anything. Thank you guys. All the best.